Birth Signs
Dear Songster ~ Welcome to the Forum. Thank you for coming out to talk.
I appreciate your considered reply. Yes, I am aware of the sexual content of Leonard's lyrics, although the minors aspect you are referring to is not coming to mind. I have not read all of the poems he has written. I wish I knew the phrases you refer to, so I could specifically speak about them. I cannot discuss, nor disapprove of, or try to justify, anything without knowing it.
The difference I see between Leonard's poetry and Partisan's posting on this Forum [in that manner] is that books of poetry are written in private, compiled, and published. It is then clearly a matter of choice for people to purchase the books for reading....if they choose.
This is a public forum, where as one member has already mentioned, his children often look over his shoulder. It is also a site where people [the vast majority of whom are adults, yet some are not] have come to read or participate [according to their choice], already being aware of Leonard's lyrics [for the most part] and their sexual content, and admiring his artistry.
Leonard is not here; and, if he were, he would not be "virtually Live" speaking of sateing his desire for 16-year-olds, and then playing it off as a joke, when people objected to it in terms of child victimization, and then repeating it, whilst proclaiming his offense at the issue already referred to. This medium of the Internet has resulted in a significantly different world where strangers have become more of a threat than ever imagined. Leonard would be well aware of that and would not force these references onto people. That in itself is a power play, often part of the victimization process itself.
Partisan has already alluded to people taking things too seriously here, when it is just another Forum on the Internet. It appears that he does not care for its being, or being maintained as, a serious forum of merit, but would prefer that it be reduced to the lowest common denominator. If Partisan feels driven to speak of these desires as he does, there are formats known as journals. They are not public forums. If he then chooses to publish those and others wish to buy them, that's a choice, too. I don't have to agree with what he writes and gets published, nor do I have to buy it. When I enter a "public room," I don't expect to get assaulted, by having it imposed on me, either.....or by him with his insults.
There have been plenty of sexual innuendoes on several threads in the Member's Poetry section, yet those were between adults referring to adults. He chooses not to go there on the basis of its being "excrement," etc. If there were any arena on this site appropriate for discussing personal sexual preferences, that would be it. It's the "personal" section. He could have joined in there with availed himself of all the humour he feels he possesses for usage, even in sexual content. Instead, he chooses to degrade the section and virtually all who contribute there, as well as their poetry [a remarkable feat for someone who never goes there].
This would suggest that he feels what he has to say is fine and most appropriate for the general population of people who come here; and that it's fine to degrade the poetry section, as long as he doesn't do it in the section itself; and that his postings are of considerably greater merit than the ones there or, for the most part, anywhere else on the Forum. Since the issue with Partisan is people being "driven" from this site, I would think that he might consider the things he does as possibly being instrumental in that result....particularly when those already here and actively participating are openly voicing their concerns.
There are P.M.s available in this section, and with some people there are e-mails and instant messaging, as well. These afford privacy. In the chatroom, there are windows, which [unfortunately, as "private chats" are renowned for] wade into or wallow in those realms. These are all still personal choices, where there remains privacy. Someone not wishing to engage in or be exposed to these things simply doesn't open the door.
I know that I've previously said, if you don't like what I'm writing, ignore it, ignore me. However, I am not here to openly and cavalierly offend the sensibilities of others with lewd/lustful references because Leonard has written sexually-implicit [or explicit] material. It does not make this a sexual site where anything goes. If I felt compelled to post such "openly," I would have the decency to take it to the Poetry section, where private writings are encouraged.
Whilst Partisan [and some others, some of whom may have been him under other names] have ravaged me here for (1) posting too much, i.e. replying to "every" post (2) being too positive in my postings to others (3) unnecessarily greeting newcomers (4) using too many smiley emoticons (5) reading too much/too deeply into what some people have written and speculating/claiming that what they really meant was not what they were pretending to say ~ these being cited as actions that would and allegedly have caused people to flee. Yet, personal insults and attacks, and inappropriate-for-a-public-forum comments, are not seen as such.
Leonard is a serious and genius writer. Partisan is not. This is not the Playboy, Hustler, Eminem, or child pornography site. If this is how Partisan perceives Leonard and is trying to emulate him [in hopes that one of us will recognize his "genius" and "similarities"], then perhaps he will consider building his own website, to where his audience, his followers, his public, his admirers, his fans will surely follow ~ and all will surely stay, as well, to take in his every word. His attempts to emulate Leonard are certainly failing. [The sarcastic implications of that long sentence are not directed at you, Songster.]
I agree with you that one can see in Leonard's previous writings a lot of lust knowledge, whilst lacking in the realm of love. Leonard would not hesitate to admit this, and much of his life has been centered around trying to resolve these issues, and reconcile his own disparities, as he strives to become "whole." Personal writings, of whatever nature, are often concentrated attempts to process and work through issues that plague the spirit. Leonard's writings were eventually published. I do not believe he foisted these [or would have] on people in public places, places where an element of danger seems already lurking as a matter of course. In his more recent writings and conversations, he can be seen to be succeeding in his "resolution" process. He has continually tried to confront and conquer his demons, virtually always aware of their undermining effect on the quality of his life, and he has sought integration within himself, with a wholesome kind of happiness as his goal. The one quote that really underscores this is where he woke up in L.A. one morning, walked outside, and felt joy. He describes it as his first experiencing of what he imagines people must have been talking about all these years.
There has always been an admission of his suffering and an honesty by
Leonard that has shown him at his most vulnerable. He has not sought to try to destroy other people, but rather to try to survive himself.
I'm certain that this is much longer of an answer than you expected, Songster.
~ Elizabeth
I appreciate your considered reply. Yes, I am aware of the sexual content of Leonard's lyrics, although the minors aspect you are referring to is not coming to mind. I have not read all of the poems he has written. I wish I knew the phrases you refer to, so I could specifically speak about them. I cannot discuss, nor disapprove of, or try to justify, anything without knowing it.
The difference I see between Leonard's poetry and Partisan's posting on this Forum [in that manner] is that books of poetry are written in private, compiled, and published. It is then clearly a matter of choice for people to purchase the books for reading....if they choose.
This is a public forum, where as one member has already mentioned, his children often look over his shoulder. It is also a site where people [the vast majority of whom are adults, yet some are not] have come to read or participate [according to their choice], already being aware of Leonard's lyrics [for the most part] and their sexual content, and admiring his artistry.
Leonard is not here; and, if he were, he would not be "virtually Live" speaking of sateing his desire for 16-year-olds, and then playing it off as a joke, when people objected to it in terms of child victimization, and then repeating it, whilst proclaiming his offense at the issue already referred to. This medium of the Internet has resulted in a significantly different world where strangers have become more of a threat than ever imagined. Leonard would be well aware of that and would not force these references onto people. That in itself is a power play, often part of the victimization process itself.
Partisan has already alluded to people taking things too seriously here, when it is just another Forum on the Internet. It appears that he does not care for its being, or being maintained as, a serious forum of merit, but would prefer that it be reduced to the lowest common denominator. If Partisan feels driven to speak of these desires as he does, there are formats known as journals. They are not public forums. If he then chooses to publish those and others wish to buy them, that's a choice, too. I don't have to agree with what he writes and gets published, nor do I have to buy it. When I enter a "public room," I don't expect to get assaulted, by having it imposed on me, either.....or by him with his insults.
There have been plenty of sexual innuendoes on several threads in the Member's Poetry section, yet those were between adults referring to adults. He chooses not to go there on the basis of its being "excrement," etc. If there were any arena on this site appropriate for discussing personal sexual preferences, that would be it. It's the "personal" section. He could have joined in there with availed himself of all the humour he feels he possesses for usage, even in sexual content. Instead, he chooses to degrade the section and virtually all who contribute there, as well as their poetry [a remarkable feat for someone who never goes there].
This would suggest that he feels what he has to say is fine and most appropriate for the general population of people who come here; and that it's fine to degrade the poetry section, as long as he doesn't do it in the section itself; and that his postings are of considerably greater merit than the ones there or, for the most part, anywhere else on the Forum. Since the issue with Partisan is people being "driven" from this site, I would think that he might consider the things he does as possibly being instrumental in that result....particularly when those already here and actively participating are openly voicing their concerns.
There are P.M.s available in this section, and with some people there are e-mails and instant messaging, as well. These afford privacy. In the chatroom, there are windows, which [unfortunately, as "private chats" are renowned for] wade into or wallow in those realms. These are all still personal choices, where there remains privacy. Someone not wishing to engage in or be exposed to these things simply doesn't open the door.
I know that I've previously said, if you don't like what I'm writing, ignore it, ignore me. However, I am not here to openly and cavalierly offend the sensibilities of others with lewd/lustful references because Leonard has written sexually-implicit [or explicit] material. It does not make this a sexual site where anything goes. If I felt compelled to post such "openly," I would have the decency to take it to the Poetry section, where private writings are encouraged.
Whilst Partisan [and some others, some of whom may have been him under other names] have ravaged me here for (1) posting too much, i.e. replying to "every" post (2) being too positive in my postings to others (3) unnecessarily greeting newcomers (4) using too many smiley emoticons (5) reading too much/too deeply into what some people have written and speculating/claiming that what they really meant was not what they were pretending to say ~ these being cited as actions that would and allegedly have caused people to flee. Yet, personal insults and attacks, and inappropriate-for-a-public-forum comments, are not seen as such.
Leonard is a serious and genius writer. Partisan is not. This is not the Playboy, Hustler, Eminem, or child pornography site. If this is how Partisan perceives Leonard and is trying to emulate him [in hopes that one of us will recognize his "genius" and "similarities"], then perhaps he will consider building his own website, to where his audience, his followers, his public, his admirers, his fans will surely follow ~ and all will surely stay, as well, to take in his every word. His attempts to emulate Leonard are certainly failing. [The sarcastic implications of that long sentence are not directed at you, Songster.]
I agree with you that one can see in Leonard's previous writings a lot of lust knowledge, whilst lacking in the realm of love. Leonard would not hesitate to admit this, and much of his life has been centered around trying to resolve these issues, and reconcile his own disparities, as he strives to become "whole." Personal writings, of whatever nature, are often concentrated attempts to process and work through issues that plague the spirit. Leonard's writings were eventually published. I do not believe he foisted these [or would have] on people in public places, places where an element of danger seems already lurking as a matter of course. In his more recent writings and conversations, he can be seen to be succeeding in his "resolution" process. He has continually tried to confront and conquer his demons, virtually always aware of their undermining effect on the quality of his life, and he has sought integration within himself, with a wholesome kind of happiness as his goal. The one quote that really underscores this is where he woke up in L.A. one morning, walked outside, and felt joy. He describes it as his first experiencing of what he imagines people must have been talking about all these years.
There has always been an admission of his suffering and an honesty by
Leonard that has shown him at his most vulnerable. He has not sought to try to destroy other people, but rather to try to survive himself.
I'm certain that this is much longer of an answer than you expected, Songster.
~ Elizabeth
A Comment on Eminem
Paula ~
Before my reference above is [understandably] interpreted as one more slag on Eminem and perceived as a re-entry into that arena, I want to make some comments I've been intending to for a long time, but keep forgetting, when I have the time, and remembering, when I don't. Maybe it's that etched-in-fog phenomena.
Sometime last fall/early winter, I was still trying to fathom what anyone could like about his lyrics. I had occasion to go into a tuxedo shop and there was a very nice looking, tall, young, black man [pretty conservative looking, like maybe a student working his way through college] working there. He was alone in the shop and had rap music on the system. I asked if he liked Eminem and he said yes. I asked, "Can you tell me why...." and he [
the fog begins to roll in, so these will be paraphrases] said because he has a very unique style [the sound] that's all his own and that he's come up with [sounds pretty much the same to me, though when I heard him from a distance once I thought it might be Tupac] and that you can recognize immediately as being him; he writes all his own songs; he has "style;" and he writes about his own life, his own pain, which a lot of other rappers don't.
Somehow [fog thickens
~ this is why I should always write about these things as soon as they happen] I said something about Tupac was one whom I considered to be great, if any of them were, and how I felt he would have been able to lead a lot of the younger people up and out of the street life, had he lived. He said, "Oh, well, yeah, Tupac.....no one's like Tupac!" So, using Tupac, I returned to Eminem with a comment about how Tupac wrote about his mother with respect and gratitude, and honoured her......whereas Eminem wrote only violent and vile lyrics about his mother, which I feel sets a horrible example for impressionable young people listening to his lyrics, even to the extent of encouraging violence against their own.
He said, "Yes, he does, but you have to know what his relationship with his mother was like." This is where I got a piece of information I had never heard. He was a child-abuse victim, with what's called "Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy" ~ a syndrome where the mother [generally], in order to gain attention and sympathy, will subject her child to all kinds of medical procedures, via false claims of symptoms and intentional acts creating illness in the child [i.e. giving them something that they know will make them sick; intentionally injuring them in as unsuspicious a manner as possible; and then rushing them to the hospital]. There are continual trips to the emergency room of hospitals, repeated trips to doctors, with the end goal of being applauded for being a good mother for her care and concern; and the expressions of sympathy that attend having a sick child. I've only seen one [work-related] scenario where Munchausen's was the diagnosis.
Reading the reports and the chronos [written documentation of the handling of the case], I was stunned by what this child had suffered. I had, prior to that, read various materials about the syndrome in in-service trainings, but this was my first [and only ~ it is a fairly rare phenomenon] first-hand experience with it.
When I realized that this is what Eminem had suffered through, I could understand his justifiable anger, and trying to process his pain, through his music. I felt real empathy regarding his situation. What I [unfortunately or not] continue to feel is that bringing those images to so many young people [who have not suffered this rare phenomena] and advocating, in his way, the disrespect, hatred, and violence of "mothers" ~ when so many don't have a clue about this form of child abuse, and are more likely to see it as "oh okay, just bash in your mother's head....it's the thing to do to be cool." It was interesting when I returned to his site and at least saw the direct connection with the way he expressed some of the things he said. I would still much prefer that he had tried working through this with therapeutic measures out of the public [youthful] eye. The philosophical considerations [i.e. by him] seem pretty lacking in his approach. It seems more of an advocating of revenge.
It seemed from some more recent things said [and read] about him that he is resolving those issues and looking at the world more through a parent's eyes.
Anyway, my purpose here isn't to start slagging Eminem again. I just really wanted to [finally] say something on his "behalf," given this other context and perspective.
Were you aware of this already, Paula?
~ Lizzytysh
Before my reference above is [understandably] interpreted as one more slag on Eminem and perceived as a re-entry into that arena, I want to make some comments I've been intending to for a long time, but keep forgetting, when I have the time, and remembering, when I don't. Maybe it's that etched-in-fog phenomena.
Sometime last fall/early winter, I was still trying to fathom what anyone could like about his lyrics. I had occasion to go into a tuxedo shop and there was a very nice looking, tall, young, black man [pretty conservative looking, like maybe a student working his way through college] working there. He was alone in the shop and had rap music on the system. I asked if he liked Eminem and he said yes. I asked, "Can you tell me why...." and he [
the fog begins to roll in, so these will be paraphrases] said because he has a very unique style [the sound] that's all his own and that he's come up with [sounds pretty much the same to me, though when I heard him from a distance once I thought it might be Tupac] and that you can recognize immediately as being him; he writes all his own songs; he has "style;" and he writes about his own life, his own pain, which a lot of other rappers don't. Somehow [fog thickens
~ this is why I should always write about these things as soon as they happen] I said something about Tupac was one whom I considered to be great, if any of them were, and how I felt he would have been able to lead a lot of the younger people up and out of the street life, had he lived. He said, "Oh, well, yeah, Tupac.....no one's like Tupac!" So, using Tupac, I returned to Eminem with a comment about how Tupac wrote about his mother with respect and gratitude, and honoured her......whereas Eminem wrote only violent and vile lyrics about his mother, which I feel sets a horrible example for impressionable young people listening to his lyrics, even to the extent of encouraging violence against their own.He said, "Yes, he does, but you have to know what his relationship with his mother was like." This is where I got a piece of information I had never heard. He was a child-abuse victim, with what's called "Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy" ~ a syndrome where the mother [generally], in order to gain attention and sympathy, will subject her child to all kinds of medical procedures, via false claims of symptoms and intentional acts creating illness in the child [i.e. giving them something that they know will make them sick; intentionally injuring them in as unsuspicious a manner as possible; and then rushing them to the hospital]. There are continual trips to the emergency room of hospitals, repeated trips to doctors, with the end goal of being applauded for being a good mother for her care and concern; and the expressions of sympathy that attend having a sick child. I've only seen one [work-related] scenario where Munchausen's was the diagnosis.
Reading the reports and the chronos [written documentation of the handling of the case], I was stunned by what this child had suffered. I had, prior to that, read various materials about the syndrome in in-service trainings, but this was my first [and only ~ it is a fairly rare phenomenon] first-hand experience with it.
When I realized that this is what Eminem had suffered through, I could understand his justifiable anger, and trying to process his pain, through his music. I felt real empathy regarding his situation. What I [unfortunately or not] continue to feel is that bringing those images to so many young people [who have not suffered this rare phenomena] and advocating, in his way, the disrespect, hatred, and violence of "mothers" ~ when so many don't have a clue about this form of child abuse, and are more likely to see it as "oh okay, just bash in your mother's head....it's the thing to do to be cool." It was interesting when I returned to his site and at least saw the direct connection with the way he expressed some of the things he said. I would still much prefer that he had tried working through this with therapeutic measures out of the public [youthful] eye. The philosophical considerations [i.e. by him] seem pretty lacking in his approach. It seems more of an advocating of revenge.
It seemed from some more recent things said [and read] about him that he is resolving those issues and looking at the world more through a parent's eyes.
Anyway, my purpose here isn't to start slagging Eminem again. I just really wanted to [finally] say something on his "behalf," given this other context and perspective.
Were you aware of this already, Paula?
~ Lizzytysh
Hi Lizzie - I have read a lot about Enimen and I was aware his mother was not the mother she should have been. He was a white kid brought up in a black area with a mother who abused him and an absentee father who only realised Enimen was his son when one of his subsequent children asked him if he was related as Enimen's real name was Marshall Mathers III and the father was Marshall Mathers II.
I do admire Eninem for the way he has used his music as a sort of therapy and he strikes me as a good father to his daughter. Some of our best writers beome just that by utilising their life experiences and honestly writing about them. I think the older he gets the agression and pain will subside and he will shine. He has a genuine talent for writing and I know some of it can be offensive but he is speaking of his life and he speak honestly I think he strikes a chord with a lot of people whose lives mirror his but he also touches people who lifes differ totally. His stuff is not someting I would put on to listen to as such but I can appreciate his talent.
I do admire Eninem for the way he has used his music as a sort of therapy and he strikes me as a good father to his daughter. Some of our best writers beome just that by utilising their life experiences and honestly writing about them. I think the older he gets the agression and pain will subside and he will shine. He has a genuine talent for writing and I know some of it can be offensive but he is speaking of his life and he speak honestly I think he strikes a chord with a lot of people whose lives mirror his but he also touches people who lifes differ totally. His stuff is not someting I would put on to listen to as such but I can appreciate his talent.
I'm guessing you consider yourself the master of one-liners, James....a tactic often employed in the courtroom by attorneys [accomplished and otherwise]. If that goal is ever fulfilled, for your client's sake, I hope you invest in more substantive responses while presenting/defending/substantiating your case. Your one-liners aren't even "making the case" as attorneys' are constructed to do.
It also, unfortunately, shows that nothing is going to have any realizable or demonstrable effect with you. It's not about counting words and still another childish response. Unless, of course, you haven't yet accomplished your numbers in multiples [and feel the cup should really be self-awarded for math skills]. It appears you have [I won't double-check], so that leaves the unfortunate conclusion.
It also, unfortunately, shows that nothing is going to have any realizable or demonstrable effect with you. It's not about counting words and still another childish response. Unless, of course, you haven't yet accomplished your numbers in multiples [and feel the cup should really be self-awarded for math skills]. It appears you have [I won't double-check], so that leaves the unfortunate conclusion.
Last edited by lizzytysh on Sat Jun 07, 2003 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hi Jurica - It was any two I meant not just my birth date. I don't know anyone who shares my birth date apart from Elvis, Dennis Wheatley, David Bowie and Shirley Bassey.
For instance does anyone share Leonard's birth date I will put his in as an extra person
21st September
What is your birth date Jurica?
For instance does anyone share Leonard's birth date I will put his in as an extra person
21st September
What is your birth date Jurica?
I discovered Leonard Cohen about four years ago and I am so sure if I had discovered him pre-1980 I would not have become a fan of his. The Leonard Cohen I discovered does not seem like the same man to me, from what I have heard and read. His interviews, his music, his poetry must be so different. I like his older voice so much better than his young voice, I stopped buying his albums going back, I have Songs From a Room and The Best Of Leonard Cohen and had no more desire to buy any of his older music. I have Various Positions and Stranger Music and I was told what some of his older poetry was like by afew people on this board, and knew that wasn't for me. I love his new songs, and most of his poetry of today.
How did you discover him Songster? Stick with Leonard you discovered and keep waiting for his new book and more new songs. With age comes wisdom.
If I only knew what I know now when I was younger, if I only knew now I know now when I was stronger. Or something like that. Who sang that? What song is it?
How did you discover him Songster? Stick with Leonard you discovered and keep waiting for his new book and more new songs. With age comes wisdom.
If I only knew what I know now when I was younger, if I only knew now I know now when I was stronger. Or something like that. Who sang that? What song is it?
Linda
Or some might say he was much wiser pre-1980's and lost his way thereafter. An equal and opposite argument could be made for that too.
While there is some truth in it, i always considered that statement "With age comes wisdom" to be just a little bit arrogant.
Oh I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now......
While there is some truth in it, i always considered that statement "With age comes wisdom" to be just a little bit arrogant.
Oh I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now......
Linda, if I had first discovered the latter-day Leonard, as you did, I think I may have reacted the same way. His early work is indeed very different in tone and content from what he is producing now, but back in the late 60's and early 70's his pain, confusion and anger spoke to my teenage emotions in a way that no other writer did. His later work still speaks to, and for, the person I am now, and through the early songs I am able to access my former self in a way that might not have been possible otherwise. Even though I still love the old songs, I find I often prefer later, live versions of them.
Linda
1972: Leeds, 2008: Manchester, Lyon, London O2, 2009: Wet Weybridge, 2012: Hop Farm/Wembley Arena
1972: Leeds, 2008: Manchester, Lyon, London O2, 2009: Wet Weybridge, 2012: Hop Farm/Wembley Arena
I don't think it is arrogant at all, I see wisdom as referring to learning from experience, and the older you are the more experience you have had to hopefully learn from. And it is just a figure of speech. I know some very wise young people. Some very intelligent old people who are not so wise, and vice-versa. And what the heck your memory goes.
Linda
I find it slightly arrogant only to the extent that sometimes older people use it as some sort of justification for their opinions and actions.
As they say in sports psychology "it is not how much you practice, but how you practice". Extrapolating that logic, wisdom does not depend on how old one is, but how one uses their years (young or old) to gain experience and exposure and consequently "wisdom".
p.s. Moreover, this idea of romantic couple love etc etc as "positive" is a very Western/Christian concept. Many ancient cultures celebrate lust which LC has been doing all his life and probably still doing so. Ancient Indian art, achitecture and literature is very lustful (is that a word ?).
As they say in sports psychology "it is not how much you practice, but how you practice". Extrapolating that logic, wisdom does not depend on how old one is, but how one uses their years (young or old) to gain experience and exposure and consequently "wisdom".
p.s. Moreover, this idea of romantic couple love etc etc as "positive" is a very Western/Christian concept. Many ancient cultures celebrate lust which LC has been doing all his life and probably still doing so. Ancient Indian art, achitecture and literature is very lustful (is that a word ?).
Yes, it is a word, Kush......and brings to mind the Kama Sutra, in the context which you used it. I've always thought of the phrase as merely a [sometimes optimistic, hopeful] generalization....certainly not a guaranteed continuum. I've also always seen the phrase as making the distinction between knowledge and wisdom. Age also brings a realization of how little we really do know [as opposed to when we were young and thought we knew everything] and that realization, in itself, can be considered to be an ushering in of wisdom.
As for Leonard's music, it's difficult for me to understand anyone hearing any of his music, from any of his eras, and not falling in love with, admiring, and respecting it. Yet, I continue to read these kind of comments that suggest otherwise, so I'm forced to believe that for some [even those who love his other music ~ not just the general population] it must be true
.
~ Lizzytysh
As for Leonard's music, it's difficult for me to understand anyone hearing any of his music, from any of his eras, and not falling in love with, admiring, and respecting it. Yet, I continue to read these kind of comments that suggest otherwise, so I'm forced to believe that for some [even those who love his other music ~ not just the general population] it must be true
. ~ Lizzytysh