Europe & America - Recognizing the radical islam threat

bee · Post by **bee** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:37 pm

Tom Sakic, it is interesting topic, just it is hard to think about the above.
If one wants to think of hypocrisy and political and moral adjustments to the situation of aday- one does not need to look that far back in history.
In the early 20th of last century, after the Revolution- when Comunist Russia took over the teritories of Uzbekistan, Kazachstan, Tadzikistan, Turkmenia etc.- all the muslim teritories, they did not play any softball.
Sure, they decided to "rebuild" these countries.
Democracy- that thing was unheard-of.
The russians made it simple- and it worked! Allah?Allah Akbarh? No fucking allah for ya no more. Mosques? no more- closed, if needed- buldozed, done and done. Mullas- no more, all gone to Siberia, and if somebody is too stubborn- we c'n shoot them on spot for deceiving the working peoples population with poisonous ideas. Sirs of islam- you like to enjoy couple or more then that wifes?- no more! A working muslim proletarian must enjoy just one wife- and, if you cry for more- we'll show you the "wifes" in the jail. Koran- it is a poison- an opium for the people- burn that stupid thing which is written with letters no proletarian needs to go crazy reading.
It took them about 12 years to "clean and rebuild" these lands, koran was rearly read, no calling to the early or late prayer.
Nobody was complaining, and if they were- who would listen anyhow. Girls went to schools- unveiled, if papa wanted to sell a girl of age 12 to his buddy for good "kalim"- he could go to jail, if caught.
But- behold, after WW2 , the country of Israel was established. Israel got to fight for it's existence, the arabs were mad as hell and soon enough Arrafat- the great sport and the best friend of USSR- his pic was in every newspaper over the world. And who do you think started to scream about the rights of palestinian people? The freedom of muslim people, how holy and great were the mullas and how sweet was Koran? Sure- that was mama Russia, or USSR. Whose hiden troops dressed in sirian and other muslim country army clothing were fighting against israel and any western interests? Sure enough, the big Russian bro was there. See- they were the best friends to islam at that point.
Now in Iraq- democracy is coming, but who now is screaming loud, that everything is done wrong, and the americans are fascists and all that nonsense. The liberals in Europe, the liberals in USA
Of course- the americans did not hang the mullas or tear down the mosques- democracy, you see. They need to be gentle, sensative to "religous" or whatever feelings, not to offend so many sensative and gentle minds.

well, i believe it too, this is just a beginning to just incredible struggle of minds, powers, souls and guns, the angels and the devils will rise and fight.

mdidier · Post by **mdidier** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:30 pm

Bee... yes and Chirac has been trying to draw the line in the sand, using the Muslim scarf as an issue. But notice that opponents of Chirac ARE talking about re-looking at the 1905 law that separated church and state. The question is: did Western Culture create its own demise by allowing and even inviting any one to come join the prosperous societies of Europe and America. The invitation is being accepted in 'overwhelming' numbers.

I would say that Western Civilization and its Christian underpinnings are seriously being threatened by the masses from the East..... a repeat of "Barbarians at the Gates".... they are for sure going to change the character of the West substantially....

Kush · Post by **Kush** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:34 pm

bee, I don't quite find your posts all that amusing as I used to.

bee · Post by **bee** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:09 pm

Kush- and why not? don't hurt my feelings now

you are right, perhaps I should've written the post of russian colonial methods in more serious manner, but really, all of that contains in itself so much irony. Irony is also in the fact, that all of that has much been forgotten, even that all that past has most serious impact on today.
Sorry Kush

you find me no more amusing, I'll try to be good next time

Insanitor · Post by **Insanitor** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:47 am

I was under the impression that all religious practice was banned under communist rule, not just that of islam.

bee · Post by **bee** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:34 pm

Insanitor- it is true, but i did not say, that it was done only to muslims.
My point was that of twists and turns in world politics. Morality plays a very little role there.
The Moslim world had it's great triumphs in the past, it always was agressive, but there were also extraordinary achievements. Just to think about the Ottoman Turkish Empire- Suleyman the Magnificent added to the Turkish dominions Belgrade, Budapest, Rhodes, Baghdad, Algiers. During his reign, the Turkish Moslem armies even reached the gates of Vienna. There is a very long standing tradition of conquest against Christendom. But same time, he was not much about converting Christian Kingdoms to Islam. He insisted to be regarded as their suzerain.
But it is not quite clear to me, if the Islam fighters of today really care about converting anybody to Islam as well. The difference perhaps is in the fact, that Suleyman had a good degree of tolerance of personal religious conviction. He was building mosques as centers of education, colleges, hospitals, shops, public kitchens etc. Suleyman had an extraordinary personality, loved arts, prsonally drew up new civil and criminal codes, taxes, military rights, vages, health regulations etc. But most of all, Suleyman was a military genius- loved wars.
Talking about the Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan etc. also mostly muslim- sunni, it is very interesting to think about these nations- where they came from, what happened to them. The uzbeks by descent are mongols, and Samarkand was the center of the empire of Ghenghis Khan. Samarkand and Tashkent are ancient cities, where the silk caravan trade went trough. Perhaps the uzbeks expierenced the gratest humiliation from the communist regime, since they had an old and deep culture. Samarkand ones was a capital of Tamerlane's empire.
Of course they were under Russian imperial order since 1876, when was the official annexation, but the real trouble came after 1919 when the Red Army took over.
Kazakhstan had the same fate, just perhaps it was not so crusial for the kazakh people, because they were nomadic herdsmen tribes, ones ruled by mongol khans. Also sunni moslims. Very strong people, free and loving their steppelands. What they didn't know was, that the land also was rich of copper, lead, uranium, diamonds, coal, iron ore, natural gas, petroleum.
But russians knew, and who can blame them? Knowledge is the power, isn't it?
Well, there is much to think about, that everything is in connection to everything else. And nothing is just black and white.
there is this great author, he is kyrgyz-Ghenghis Aitmatov, he's written great novels about the transformation of the minds and souls of his people, the kyrgyz moslems. great stories, sometimes heartbreaking.
Take care, Insanitor

bee · Post by **bee** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:05 pm

Marcel, i guess I have shiftted a bit from your topic with a historic reference, but it all comes to what you said- ones moslem armies were at the gates of Vienna- now- they have been invited to EU. Of course- not the armies, but the country of Turkey.

mdidier · Post by **mdidier** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:27 am

we hear a lot of complaints from Muslims about the West humiliating them, controlling them. They demand 'respect' for their culture and achievements (they invented the science of math, I think).... the problem is that not much has been achieved by them since those roaming days, since they were pushed out of Spain (1492?) by Isabella and Ferdinand..... except violence in recent years. UBL and others blaming the West for their lack of progress is the cover for their shortcomings....

So they have taken to the world of "scholarship" and are sending apostles to universities in the West to (re-)educate us all and make converts to Islamic thought and practices, which mean the eventual eradication of "Western Culture" in favor of a "one world" utopia, borderless states...
so 'planters of bombs' in the east, and 'planters of ideas' in the West...?

Anth · Post by **Anth** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:04 am

Bee, why don't you try to read one book: Noam Chomsky "Hegemony or Survival: the American Quest for Global Dominance".

And please don't be in fond about religious policy of USSR. I know it by my personal experience and what it means when your parents are fired just because of visit to the church to baptise friend's baby.

bee · Post by **bee** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:24 pm

Anth- you read the Chomsky guy! I'm not interested at all, what he has to say. I've seen him several times, the guy is cashing in on big demagogy, so please,

don't give me an advice, when I'm not asking for one- like, what one would need to read.

About the policy on religion- go back to school baby, with all your personal experience and don't bother me. Big deal- being fired- is it all you can suffer for your Lord and Saviour? Don't play here your poor victim games now.

tom.d.stiller · Post by **tom.d.stiller** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:49 pm

bee, you're getting nasty again.

And you rebel without a cause. Religions have always been suppressed, and more often than not, their radicalism stems from having been suppressed. Look at Iranian history.

So those who now claim to save the world from Islam are trying to extinguish fire with gasoline.

Simple solutions like you folks seem to prefer are no solutions at all. Instead of steaming off your hate and heat you should patiently sit back and study without judging people you never understood because their thoughts are not as simple as your would-be solutions.

The structure of this world is more complex than your pre-school wisdom is prepared for.

I'm going to leave this thread now, no matter what your next insult might be.

Tom

PS: You talk about demagogy? Well, maybe you're not "cashing in on it", but...

linda_lakeside · Post by **linda_lakeside** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:56 pm

You're probably doing the right thing, tom. I, however, am keeping my eye on the Canadian situation with regard to our 'involvement' in the voting process. There are approx. 25,000 Iraqi citizens in Canada who want to vote. Therefore, Canada is opening polling stations (in Ontario, at least) to accomodate them. I believe Paul Martin said that Canada would take a part in overseeing the process in Iraq. I don't know if that still stands but if lived in Ontario, I'd stay away from guys carrying knapsacks, not to mention the polling stations themselves! I think that the Iraqis should be able to vote - I just don't want to hang around the polling stations myself.

Go ahead bee, buzz your head off. You'll be talking to yourself.

Midnight · Post by **Midnight** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:49 pm

Bee,

Don't let the post-Westerners get you down. Fight the good fight.

Merry Christmas.

P.S. You're right about dear old Noam.

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:14 pm

(damn it, I wanted to go to fast and I have lost my message in the nowhere...grrrrr.....)

He..rhum...May a drop (just slip in and out or here) for a second?

Ah. Politic and controversy should be synonym. It would simplify the talks.

Story time (again). While two dogs where fighting for the same plate of food, a third dog came and eated it quietly.

What about China? Marcel and Bee - and other? Like Japan before, they rise to play a greater part in this economical game. Would it stay a gentle giant for ever?

The problem, the way I see it, recognized the importance of not being naive... Ah! I prefer to refer to Tom.D.Stiller's message. He is expressing, most of the time, exactly what I am thinking. In an effort to avoid redundancy.

For the rest, I wonder. Most of the people I know would do anything - or almost - to have a dollar in over in their pocket right now, even if it means to have 1 000 dollars less at the end of the year. Like the child who chooses the piece of 5 cents because it is bigger then the piece of 10 cents.

So politicians are not the only one to play the game. Littles actions. Little actions, dear little actions!!

Have a nice day!

mdidier · Post by **mdidier** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:31 pm

tom.d.stiller wrote:bee, you're getting nasty again.

...................

So those who now claim to save the world from Islam are trying to extinguish fire with gasoline.

Simple solutions like you folks seem to prefer are no solutions at all. Instead of steaming off your hate and heat you should patiently sit back and study without judging people you never understood because their thoughts are not as simple as your would-be solutions.

The structure of this world is more complex than your pre-school wisdom is prepared for.

I'm going to leave this thread now, no matter what your next insult might be.

Tom

PS: You talk about demagogy? Well, maybe you're not "cashing in on it", but...

what "simple solutions" did any of us propose? what gasoline?
we are looking for yours and other's input and understanding..... alas, none is forthcoming....