Snap.

[William]

Deleted

[Jimmy O'Connell]

Snap.

The photograph I treasure most is the next one, taken on the lawn.
Behind us, the laburnum arches rain,
and beyond that a wall is caught in the white sunlight,
holding the fresh green timber of the window frames.
If you look hard, you can see, beyond the glass, a sturdy avocado
etched in the other light of the courtyard door.

This, of course, is after the winter sleet and you in your overcoat
standing in the damp kitchen, bellowing the fire
through the careful coal with an open newspaper.
Your eyes, I notice, are level with my own.
Then the ambulance like an arrest, a gruff nurse in the late ward,
and, wouldn’t you know it, the car packs it in,
gears clotting, pocking the yard with thick slopped oil.

We’re all smiling and you have your good suit on,
a red tie, and your hands clasped before you as always –
the same pose echoes in this album back to 1949.
We’re all smiling like a football team
and, later, you’re singing ‘Genevieve’.

This is the photograph I treasure most.

I like the tone here. And I like the strong images... and how present they are in the mind of the reader.

But the lines in BOLD I think are confusing.
Why "the ambulance" etc etc ??
Why "the good suit" after "you in your overcoat" has been introduced in line 7?
How many photographs are we looking at?
The last line: "This is the photograph..." Is this a comment for the reader? or is it part of the original poem?
If it's part of the poem I feel it is extraneous. You don't need it. You already have made the point in the first line.

Jimmy

[William]

Jimmy
thank you.
Yes the last line is part of the poem.

This section, the middle one:

'This, of course, is after the winter sleet and you in your overcoat
standing in the damp kitchen, bellowing the fire
through the careful coal with an open newspaper.
Your eyes, I notice, are level with my own.
Then the ambulance like an arrest, a gruff nurse in the late ward,
and, wouldn’t you know it, the car packs it in,
gears clotting, pocking the yard with thick slopped oil.'

is meant as a memory of things that happened OUTSIDE the moment of the photograph.
These are events related to the man in the picture but happening at another time.
I hope that explains the change of clothing!
In section three we are back 'in' the moment of the photograph

Thank you, again, for your comments and queries.

[Jimmy O'Connell]

Okay, but...
If you introduce an ambulance and nurse into the poem the reader needs a context. Otherwise the poem becomes a mere private memory and not a sharing of an important experience.
The poem is a treasured memory to you, and obviously the ambulance has special signifiacne to you, but you have excluded the reader from that experience. Merely mentioning the memory of the ambulance is not enough for the reader. So the choice for you is to either leave it out, which you don't want to do, or expand it, give it a context, so that the reader can share your experience and thus you will have communicated to the reader not left him/her out.
The last line is not necessary. You have alredy told the reader that the poem is about a treasured memory. It's better, I think, as a reader, to end the poem with my experience or response to your memory, rather than you telling me again that this is an important memory to you. I know that. Leave it to me to experience it for myself. That is why you wanted to share the memory in the first place.
Trust the reader to "get it".

Jimmy

[~greg]

Comments welcome, though not rewrites!!!!

The limerick is the most fun form of poetry.
So it's very appropriate for this kind of thing.

Limericks, in English, have a rhyme scheme, and a number
and partitioning of lines, that are just as important as the scansion.

But what is most important, even before you can begin to approach
the fun of a limerick in English, or in any language,
or, for that matter, the fun of anything, is knowing
how not to take yourself too seriously.

It's not an arbitrary rule.
To violate it is much the same as "taking your ball and going home."
Not too dignified. Very immature. And no fun for anyone but yourself.
And it suggests that you had no balls to take home in the first place.

~~

Now. I see that this time you start out with the idea
of making a limerick, instead of a sonnet.
But that, just as before, you quit the idea at some point
out of frustration.

Well, as before, it is my only desire to encourage you
to keep working at it.

But you need to know that a limerick is not nearly as hard to make
as you think it is. In fact you almost have it now. You just need to
rearrange a few lines, and change a few words here and there,
and voila, le forme de limerique!

But let me show you how.

I have taken the liberty of "re-doing" your poem.

NOTE WELL!:
I say "re-doing", -- not "re-writing"
because although I did try to use as many of your words
and phrases and ideas as I could, I found that I couldn't
use very many of them. And my purpose is not to re-write
your poem for you anyway. It is just to show you, sort of,
somewhat, -just to give you the tiniest smidgeon
of an idea of what your poem would look like, if and when
you (not me!) re-write it in strictly classical limerick form.

I had to liberally (not "arrogantly"!) change words
and drop unnecessary phrases from the original.
But not becaue I think the original is bad.
And not it because I think that my re-do is any better.
But simply because yours didn't fit so good.

Therefore -- with that understanding (---I trust --- this time!)
---here it is --- my re-doing of your poem
---but in rigorous limerick form

- / - - / - - /
- / - - / - - /
- / - - /
- / - - /
- / - - / - - /

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

P.S.

You have no idea how hard I had to debate with myself
before posting that re-do!

For one thing I am quite certain that, once again, there will be
those who, no matter what I say, will condemn my re-doing as a re-writing.

And for another thing I realize that if you are in fact as paranoid
as the buffalo who has stumbled into Buffalo Bill's tepee by accident
as you seem to be, then you will probably be as suspicious this time
as you were the last time that any re-doing of your poem can only
be intended to mock you. You will fear that its only purpose is to
expose your impotence to public ridicule. You will fear that it
makes it all too concise and too clear that you just can't keep
it up as long as I can. (The limerick form, this time, that is.
Iambic pentameter, last time) And so now everyone will have to say
that I'm the man. And you aren't.

Also, I realize that, unless you have real confidence in yourself,
then you will fear that when you go to re-write your poem,
after reading somebody's re-doing of it, such as mine,
then you may wind up writing for example

...
- / - - / - - / - / - - / - - / - / - - /
- / - - / - / - - / - - /
...

- which is to say, -identical to my re-doing,
except for the way the lines are cut.

You will fear that it will only be after you have already re-submited it
to public approval that somebody points out, to your great chagrin,
that what you've done there is simply inadvertently plagiarized
my re-doing .

But only you know yourself well enough to know if you are
in fact all that hyper-suggestible.

Ask yourself this:
--Are you easily hypnotized by stop-lights?
--Do you feel you are a born follower?
--Is George Bush your idea of a great natural leader?
.

[lizzytysh]

Hi Greg ~

I was doing fine with your feedback, and laughing at the laughpoints, and still appreciating the structure you used to make your points, until this taunting arrived and most of what followed:

And for another thing I realize that if you are in fact as paranoid
as the buffalo who has stumbled into Buffalo Bill's tepee by accident
as you seem to be, then you will probably be as suspicious this time
as you were the last time that any re-doing of your poem can only
be intended to mock you. You will fear that its only purpose is to
expose your impotence to public ridicule. You will fear that it
makes it all too concise and too clear that you just can't keep
it up as long as I can. (The limerick form, this time, that is.
Iambic pentameter, last time) And so now everyone will have to say
that I'm the man. And you aren't.

Also, I realize that, unless you have real confidence in yourself,
then you will fear that when you go to re-write your poem,
after reading somebody's re-doing of it, such as mine,
then you may wind up writing for example

I was agreeing with Jimmy's serious feedback and legitimate questions and because I had shared some of his confusion, I was at the point of wanting to ask William about the comments and questions being welcome. Presumably [to me] a positive comment would suggest no further action needed [or at least not necessarily so]; whereas, a 'negative' comment, relating areas of confusion or excess, would [though not necessarily so] at least suggest the possibility of further action, or consideration of further action.

I feel the point that Jimmy made about communication is legitimate... since the point of sharing is to communicate [not obfuscate] or it's reasonable to think so, anyway.

So, when opening yourself up for comments, seems to me to implicitly say you're willing to take them into account in terms of making some changes. I was really hoping to scroll back and find an edited line on William's poem, but I didn't .

I've no idea how he'll react to your posting [the first part he may find humourous, as well], but how he'll react to what seems to be mockery is anybody's guess. It would've seemed to go much better without your verbalizations of anticipated negative reactions.

I do hope William will take into account Jimmy's comments and alter it somewhat... and maybe use your pattern, as well.


~ Lizzy

[Jimmy O'Connell]

Grag...
William's poem Snap is neither a sonnet nor a limerick...
Your comments / critique are redundant and irrelevant and unnecessary and... I agree with Lizzie... and I would add ... If I read what you posted I would be insulted.
Why?
Because A) I did not write a sonnet
and B) I did not write a limerick...
unless, of course you are in the wrong thread...
which is probably forgivable
but...
still insulting...

Try again Greg... you do have a lot to say... so say it...

Jimmy

[Manna]

I read Greg's post as not holding a single serious word in it, even in the personal attack. I think it would be a shame if he were misunderstood again, by me or by others. Cut Greg some slack, he's fooling around. This is not a poem that has anything at all to do with a limerick form, and William is not paranoid, and all that other stuff Greg said. Note:

But only you know yourself well enough to know if you are
in fact all that hyper-suggestible.

--~--

I understood that we were looking at a photograph and also remembering times outside the photograph, but I didn't know where those lines were drawn - possibly at stanza breaks, and if not at stanza breaks, then I would make that suggestion. I also couldn't quite follow the ambulance/arrest/car slopping oil images. But (now, here's a shocker) I don't think I need to in this case, I can just get that the poet is remembering stuff rather than communicating. I enjoyed the read.

[lizzytysh]

For my taste, I'm afraid that's a very long and protracted joke for two men who don't know each other, nor even have an established rapport; and if it is one, Greg's [to avoid talking about you in third person, Greg, you've] taken some massive liberties for the sake of a joke . A joke at William's expense... and turned him into fodder for funnies. With someone you don't know and hasn't been joking with you, too ad hominem for me to laugh.

For me, the single use of an emoticon such as , even at the very end, would have helped move it away from my own interpretation, and even then... . Had it ended at where I stopped laughing [noted above... and even then there had been some not-funny swipes], I might have seen it that way, too.

So, this time around with William, you [Manna] got the poem and I don't get the joke .


~ Lizzy

[mickey_one]

For me, the single use of an emoticon such as , even at the very end, would have helped move it away from my own interpretation, and even then... . Had it ended at where I stopped laughing [noted above... and even then there had been some not-funny swipes], I might have seen it that way, too.
~ Lizzy

oh, the pattern of poem, parody, patronising protection, & paranoia is SOOOO boring.

right, that said, here is the Muse. I saw them tonight, American band in Denmark . OK'ish but sent the girls to sleep eventually (v.hard day shopping) they're upstairs now and I have this brief surf (LC site 5th on my list)in the hotel "business centre" (2 comps. 2 chairs, 1 window) and I am COMPELLED to respond to Lizzy- Emoticons are evil. They are the weakest feeblllest dulllest way to communicate ever invented and the first day I can't express myself without them will be the first day I can't express myself without them. Flags and trousers will fly at half-mast, vigins will work in brothels and Leonard Cohen will take in washing. So the message is simple- KILL ALL EMOTITHINGYS, KILL THEM FOREVER, KILL THEM DEAD.


MICKEY_ONE
POMPOUS SINCE 30TH OCTOBER 1953
IGNORING STALKERS AND STIRRERS SINCE AUGUST 2007


P.S. predictable responses with winky littkle faces etc will not be appreciated.

[lizzytysh]

P.S. predictable responses with winky littkle faces etc will not be appreciated.

Nor will predictable responses regarding my suggestion of using a "winky littkle face" [another Streisand success?] be appreciated .

vigins

Is this the villified sect of vegans?

patronising protection, & paranoia

'twas none of the above, so you'll have to be bored on your own account. Mine's overdrawn. The parody wasn't successful... unless you want to include it in the how-to handbook "Parodies by Bullies." Then it might work. No offense to you, either, Greg. It was just too way over the top for me; and I'm calling it the way I see it.

Now, as to Down with Emoticonny Thingys... I didn't invent 'em and I didn't invite 'em. Believe it or not, I used to detest 'em . However, maybe I'll opportune to make of this an exercise... and try not using 'em . OMG ~ just the thought of it puts me in . I'll give it a whirl, though .

"Today is the first day of the rest of my emoticonless life" ~ Don't be surprized if you see me disappearing behind the closing door to an EA meeting .


~ Lizzy

[mickey_one]

"vigins" ha! my typing is so crap!!

[William]

'Now. I see that this time you start out with the idea
of making a limerick, instead of a sonnet.
But that, just as before, you quit the idea at some point
out of frustration.'

Greg, if you are serious, and I have no reason to assume you are not, then the point of your post is either to make trouble or as wide of the mark as can be. In either case I see not point in replying.

Manna, my intention was, as you noted, to use the stanza break to differentiate between perception (the snap) and memory and then the snap again.

Jimmy, the notion behind the repeated line at the end was to round out the experience of perceiving the photo, then investigating the memory and, finally, repeating the line to complete the experience. But thank you for your points.

[che]

Hey greg, you head is full of the cut and paste from all over the net!
mickey_one you go to makeing me laugh i send you this
now you kill it
I like you not take this serious like you not take the nothing here

[lizzytysh]

Hi William ~

I'm glad you got your poem sorted.


mickey_one ~

"vigins" ha! my typing is so crap!!

Might we say it's been so long, you forgot how to spell it?


~ Lizzy