Newbie

[ispellit]

Hi to all Cohen fans around the world,
I'd like to introduce myself as a new member from Germany who'd like to join you.
Being a LC fan for more than 26 years, I've been looking for fellows quite a while. I've come to this site as a lurker, got in contact with Jarkko (sincere thanks again to you!) by email and was invited to come over. So, today I dare to edit my first post *exited tension*.
I'd like to get in contact with other Cohen fans, since they have been very rarely found round my life. Exceptionally I've got hooked an internet mate to Cohen recently . She is the only person I can share and discuss Cohen matters with.
Last year I've given a CD with his music to a dear friend of mine as a birthday present. Some weeks later I asked her how she'd liked it and she replied:"I'm sorry, but I can't listen to this music without getting the feeling of the need to hang me - it's much too depressive." Most of them react like that. It made me very sad, since I experienced Cohen's songs as beautifully poetic and [at times] melancholic, so far. I still do. Nothing has ever touched me so very deeply. Over the years I got the feeling that his songs are kind of running through my veins.
So, I hope you will let me in.

[Anne]

There are a bunch of nice people here. There are many who will be wiling to discuss all aspects of his work with you. The one thing I find is that very few people see the work the same way. I think it is great that he writes such complex work. I agree that his work is beautiful and poetic, but one thing that I also feel is that his work is often very funny. Dark, but funny. Anyway, I am sure you will be happy here.

[ispellit]

Hi Anne, thanks for your kind welcome!

There are a bunch of nice people here. There are many who will be wiling to discuss all aspects of his work with you. The one thing I find is that very few people see the work the same way. I think it is great that he writes such complex work. I agree that his work is beautiful and poetic, but one thing that I also feel is that his work is often very funny. Dark, but funny. Anyway, I am sure you will be happy here.

Yes, I agree. That is something notable as well, his very dry, ironically humour.

[glida]

Welcome to the Forum!

The tag of "depressing" has long hung on LC's work, which I suspect relates more to the listener than the work. Leonard's writing works so multi-dimensionally, that it almost serves as a Rorschach, evoking whatever runs deeply in the one experiencing it. I can't speak for other cultures and societies, but my sense is much of what Leonard creates runs against the American mythos of strong individualism and the indomitability of will power. I've long suspected that much of what separates American and European cultures is that Europeans have a deeply felt and understood sense of the tragic (suffice it to say that between the American Civil War and 9/11, 136 years had passed since a major war or battle had taken place on American soil - I think that when countries experience war within their own borders, a major shift of consciousness takes place - also America at 231 years is considerably younger that the much older European nations), while Americans would see the tragic as some sort of negativism and defeatism. Much of what I appreciate about Leonard's work is that he understands the "underside" of human discourse and consciousness,integrates a healthy sense of the absurd, and communicates humor, compassion, and a deep appreciation for the human journey. Without an individual's ability to connect on that wavelength, Leonard's work is simply far too disturbing. Leonard's willingness to meet his readers and listeners at the "innermost door" constitutes one of the main reasons he touches me so deeply, and why I come to value him more and more over time.

Fred

[lizzytysh]

Hi Ispellit ~

Welcome from me, too . You will find many here who share in these feelings you've described:

. . . since I experienced Cohen's songs as beautifully poetic and [at times] melancholic, so far. I still do. Nothing has ever touched me so very deeply. Over the years I got the feeling that his songs are kind of running through my veins.

And, Fred, just when I thought Kokenpere had covered all the bases, you introduce some historical dimensions and a great analysis of some very integral differences in how Leonard is perceived in the U.S. vs. Europe, which seems to go a long way in explaining his being so relatively unknown and 'unappreciated' here. What you've said is so true. We are so spoiled here and it's evident in so many ways. You took your line of thinking and reasoning right down to the marrow. I'm glad you contributed to this thread.

I really like your list of what you appreciate about him and love your Rorschach analogy.


~ Lizzy

[kokenpere]

Hi to Ispellit and Fred and Lizzy etc.

In the video "Songs From The Life Of Leonard Cohen", Jennifer Warnes makes the observation that the American attitude toward nearly everything is one of "keeping your sunny side up" and nearly ignoring any kind of pain. The American attitude of labeling and dismissing everything that can not make money or be conquered extends to the nature of Leonard's popularity. ("Various Positions" wasn't released in the U.S. initially because the labels of "depressing" and "despair" were attached to Leonard and his songs; it was released in Europe where it could "make money")

I'm not aware of the exact 'mix' of the audience that saw Leonard in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in 1975 but the city was mainly German and Polish in ethnic terms. That audience gave Leonard 5 standing ovations. I feel that Leonard touched the ethnic roots and the hearts of his American audience then.

I also feel that Leonard's songs are not limited by political or ethnic boundaries. The landscapes of the heart usually go beyond boundaries.

Ispellit - I envy your "newness" to Leonard and his work. I still get gooseflesh when I listen to many of the songs on "The Songs Of Leonard Cohen". Welcome to the Forum.

kokenpere

[glida]

Dear Kokenpere ET. Al.,

Interesting piece of information about "Various Positions" having a delayed release in the U.S. I can also imagine that perhaps Columbia had decided that after five years from his previous release of new material ("Recent Songs"), Cohen's popularity had eclipsed. In any case, I agree with Jennifer Warnes, and would add that American society (best - and tragically - evidenced by the Bush administration) operates very much from dichotomous and linear thinking, which also tends to produce a short-sidedness that plunges the U.S. into unfortunate foreign entanglements, and causes us to ignore environmental concerns while holding that global warming is merely "a theory."

I believe that Leonard's vision extends from the cutting edge creativity of the beat (and later hippie) era, which produced the counterculture with all the potential of a new paradigm that incorporated the spiritual vision into daily consciousness (which reminds me of the notion of "walking the spiritual path with practical feet"). That vision contains an appreciation for diversity of emotions, paths, lifestyles, and thinking, and engenders harmony rather than the inculcation of artificial divisions. I treasure that Leonard never presents himself as someone "who's arrived," but rather an open-ended seeker, who appreciates the relativity of our perception of truth, understands we can never figure the whole damn thing out that we call life, but calls us to (in the words of Deuteronomy) "choose life." And bless him, he never gives up hope, no matter how "dark" he seems. In the opening poem of "Book of Longing," "I Can't Make the Hills," He writes:

My animal howls
My angel's upset
But I'm not allowed
A trace of regret

For someone will use
What I couldn't be
My heart will be hers
Impersonally

She'll step on the path
She'll know what I mean
My will cut in half
And freedom between

For less than a second
Our lives will collide
The endless suspended
The door open wide

And she will be born
To someone like you
What no one has done
She'll continue to do

I know she is coming
I know she will look
And that is the longing
And this is the book

At 73, Leonard seems to lighten his experience with the spark of youthful vision, while informing that vision with the tempering of real time experience. I suppose I see Leonard as an advance scout, checking out the deeper realms and sending up flares for us all to see.

Fred

[kokenpere]

Hello Fred, et al.,

Just to add a little more on "Various Positions" - In 1984, it was released by Jem Records under a subsidary label, Passport Records and that was a "limited" release of a few thousand copies. Jem was an American "import" record company who would distribute many English and European records for American release.
In 1987, with Jennifer Warnes' Famous Blue Raincoat and 1988 Austin City Limits appearance (and re-discovery of LC by American rock audiences)as well as the I'm Your Man album/Songs of the Life video led to the late "88/early "89 re-issuance of LC's entire catalogue - including Various Positions as a Columbia imprint.
So unless you were one of the lucky few to obtain a copy on the Passport label edition, the length of time between Recent Songs and Various Positions in the United States would have been nearly 10 years.

kokenpere

[ispellit]

Dear Fred,

yes, I think the way LC is recognized in Europe depends on our history a lot.
In my opinion Germans have to deal with their horrifying history of world war 2 most, the guilt of having murdered billions of Jewish people hangs on us forever. Although our generation of my age hasn't been born at that time, we are reminded of this guilt and we are, again and again, being accused for it by ourselves and by other nations. I've been watching a documentary on TV once, in which American people at the age of between 20/35 have been asked about what they'd know about Germany. They didn't know where it was but most of them answered. "Hitler". While other nations deliberately don't talk about their cruel offences towards other nations and there have been pretty lot of them, as we all know, Germans tend to "reheat" their guilt constantly. We all agree that something like that to happen ever again has to be avoided by all consequences! ... but still ... while the German people are suffering from their guilt and reheat it all the time, it IS possible - at the same time - that right wing extremist parties are rising and more than that, you can vote for them on elections. How does this fit together? - You can see our President on TV on a wreath laying ceromony at a Jewish memorial and when you switch to another channel, you can watch a demonstration of right wing extremists in Berlin, protected by the police ... I will never get that. It's schizophrenic to me. And I fear where we will end up with that.

I feel our people as a nation of moaners but not actors in order to make things any better. We are sufferers. That is why 3. Reich could work so horrifyingly well. And here I come back to what you were saying. Melancholy and brooding is familiar to many of us, though the trend or the want is to live the "American way" as good as possible (will never work for us, since we are much too different, as explicated before).
That's what in German is called "Spaßgesellschaft" - life becomes shallow. The scale is: how much fun do I get? Poor young generation, many of them will miss so much.

Without an individual's ability to connect on that wavelength, Leonard's work is simply far too disturbing. Leonard's willingness to meet his readers and listeners at the "innermost door" constitutes one of the main reasons he touches me so deeply, and why I come to value him more and more over time.

Fred

I totally agree with that. For me I can say that I do FEEL his poetry more than I recognize it literally. Anyway, I think that, if you yourself are not willing to open your "innermost door" to yourself, you won't be able to get the depth of Cohen's work, no matter how willingly he might be to meet you.

Kerstin

[ispellit]

I'm not aware of the exact 'mix' of the audience that saw Leonard in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in 1975 but the city was mainly German and Polish in ethnic terms. That audience gave Leonard 5 standing ovations. I feel that Leonard touched the ethnic roots and the hearts of his American audience then.

Ispellit - I envy your "newness" to Leonard and his work. I still get gooseflesh when I listen to many of the songs on "The Songs Of Leonard Cohen". Welcome to the Forum.
kokenpere

Dear kokenpere,
thanks for your kind welcome too!
I agree that Cohen's songs are not limited by any boundaries. It depends on the hearts not on the countries actually.
But as you say and as annoted by Fred already, there are ethnic a/o historical backgrounds that seem to help to get an access to his work much easier than others.

Which "newness" do you envy? My newness on the forum?

Kerstin

[ispellit]

Thanks for the heartily welcome, Lizzy!

Welcome from me, too . You will find many here who share in these feelings you've described:

I'm already loving it.

[lizzytysh]

Hi everyone here ~

Yes, Kokenpere. I had forgotten about Jennifer Warnes's comments in the film. Fred's comments echo that. I feel it is an integral part of why Leonard's lyrics are not so easily embraced here and tend to elicit these feelings of confusion in those who do. Manna made the point elsewhere here that people simply like different things, too, and that's true, too. There are bikers [motorcycles], hikers, bicyclers, mountain climbers, classical music afficionadoes, etc. ... the list goes on.

When it comes to Leonard's music, one who loves it can still struggle to understand how can a person NOT love lyrics and accompaniment so beautiful that go so deep. Historical differences; the landscapes of the heart and soul; and the differences between people... all seem to play a part. It seems to me that Europeans have developed a more eloquent way of dealing with "depressing" and "despair" than the more newly-born and less experienced U.S. has, Europe's dealings with those being more a part of the fabric of their lives and is passed down through the generations... things they've HAD to rise above in order to continue as they have for so many centuries.

In the video "Songs From The Life Of Leonard Cohen", Jennifer Warnes makes the observation that the American attitude toward nearly everything is one of "keeping your sunny side up" and nearly ignoring any kind of pain. The American attitude of labeling and dismissing everything that can not make money or be conquered extends to the nature of Leonard's popularity. ("Various Positions" wasn't released in the U.S. initially because the labels of "depressing" and "despair" were attached to Leonard and his songs; it was released in Europe where it could "make money")

I find the very last comment here ironic... the "make money" part. Was that Columbia?

Hi Kerstin ~

I've wondered about that, too... there was a young woman here once who described some of her encounters with those groups and her consternation and feeling appalled by it all equalled yours. We seem to have some here who are fascinated by the possibilities, too. It seems so obvious that people could ensure it never happens again, yet when you see the protection and tolerance of it, you wonder. Here, it's a matter of freedom of expression... there is police protection for open 'meetings'/presentations by the KKK, too. The materials they pass out [I parked my car far away and walked up to one once, just to see and hear what they were passing out and saying... I got there too late to hear anything, though... it had already concluded] seem benign enough, but you can still hear the rhetoric in various places and ways in the area where I live. The hate crimes also go down that pathway.

It seems that there might be greater concern in Germany when such seeds are seen being sown... yet, if they are trying to emulate the freedoms in the U.S., here would come the police protection in the interest of preserving democracy and free speech. It's a difficult one to sort; yet, feeling as you and I and many others do, it's scarey and painful, from another perspective, to watch the tolerance and growth of those activities. Finding them on the ballot seems a legitimization that is scarier, yet. Here, I've seen the people referred to as 'skinheads' have said that they're not about all that, though; but then has the KKK, in those public presentations. You have to go to their meetings to really know.

Education would seem to go a long way in preventing it all, yet the person being educated comes to the table with their own views, too. It gets to where you begin to wonder if it's just a part of human nature to want to destroy those unlike you. And, if this part is overdeveloped/underdeveloped in some... and what constitutes the 'normal' level of development? The clicques and such?

Well, I slept late and haven't had a cup of coffee, yet. So, I'll stop there .


~ Lizzy

[Mark A. Murphy]

Dear ispellit,

Your comments about the German consciousness regarding the Jewish holocaust was very informative. I have often wondered how young Germans deal with their knowledge of the Third Reich. I am English by birth, but like to consider myself an internationalist. The British have also been guilty of crimes against humanity. Look at the Irish Potato Famine where 2 million Irish peasants were allowed to starve by the British gvt. because they were regarded as inferior, even sub-human by the Victorian ruling class. Look at the history of the British Empire, there are many attrocities that have been carried out by successive British gvts in most of its former colonies. Think of the Allied bombing of Dresden and many other German towns and cities. The Allies had knowledge of Aushwitz and other camps, but never bombed the rail tracks leading to the camps (which many inmates prayed for on a daily basis) as the Allied planes passed overhead on their bombing missions in Germany. Again, the Red Army was kept back by Stalin from liberating the Warsaw Ghetto while the Nazis put down the uprising before abandoning the city. Think of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Young Germans are no more guilty of the crimes of their forbears as are young British or Americans guilty of the bombing of Dresden or Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I would be interested to know how Leonard is received in Germany. I know he has many fans in Poland and other European countries. I once saw several videos of Leonard playing to a young German audience in the 1970's at youtube.com/ Perhaps you could take a look there and hunt around for the relevant footage.

Finally, I agree with what others have said about the differences between the psyches of the Old and New World. I think Leonard summed it up once when he said in an interview with Melvynn Bragg that he was not depressive, just not afraid of deep seriousness. The great English poet, WH Auden once observed “What the mass media offers is not popular art, but entertainment which is intended to be consumed like food, forgotten, and replaced by a new dish.” Most capitalist cultures are guilty of it. Leonard's work is not to be taken so lightly, it has to be thought about seriously to be truly appreciated. Whatever happened to the idea of Art for Art's sake or the idea that Art could liberate and enlighten? Leonard's work does both, but he is a lone voice in the wilderness these days.

[Sebby]

Hey ispellit,

Welcome aboard. I'm new too. I came onboard for a couple reasons, but mostly to have people to share my love of Cohen with. I too can't seem to find many people in the real world who appreciate the man, his music or his writings. I know 2 people who like Cohen. I love that I found this place. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have been enjoying it.

Sebby

[blonde madonna]

First I should say welcome Kerstin and thank you for initiating this interesting conversation. Kokenpere's comment made me go and hunt out my vinyl copy of Various Positions (one of my favourite albums):

"Various Positions" - In 1984, it was released by Jem Records under a subsidary label, Passport Records and that was a "limited" release of a few thousand copies. Jem was an American "import" record company who would distribute many English and European records for American release.
In 1987, with Jennifer Warnes' Famous Blue Raincoat and 1988 Austin City Limits appearance (and re-discovery of LC by American rock audiences)as well as the I'm Your Man album/Songs of the Life video led to the late "88/early "89 re-issuance of LC's entire catalogue - including Various Positions as a Columbia imprint.
So unless you were one of the lucky few to obtain a copy on the Passport label edition, the length of time between Recent Songs and Various Positions in the United States would have been nearly 10 years.kokenpere

My vinyl is a CBS release and is dated 1984. Is that right Kokenpere? Now it is too long ago for me to remember exactly when I bought this album. I do know that I often had to order imports because LC wasn't readily available in Australia. I definitely got it well before 'Famous Blue Raincoat' and 'I'm Your Man' (which was my first LC CD!)

I think Leonard summed it up once when he said in an interview with Melvynn Bragg that he was not depressive, just not afraid of deep seriousness. The great English poet, WH Auden once observed “What the mass media offers is not popular art, but entertainment which is intended to be consumed like food, forgotten, and replaced by a new dish.” Most capitalist cultures are guilty of it. Leonard's work is not to be taken so lightly, it has to be thought about seriously to be truly appreciated. Whatever happened to the idea of Art for Art's sake or the idea that Art could liberate and enlighten? Leonard's work does both, but he is a lone voice in the wilderness these days.

Agreed with your comments Mark but I think, thankfully, there are other lone voices and my aim is to develop my hearing and search them out.