Belief
The blonde little girl with her head hung low
Sat somberly on the carved wooden pew
And rose to sing as her father did
For it was his rising that was her cue
She sang about the Lord and His son, Jesus Christ
When in fact her heart sang for neither
For she was singing for the feeling the music gave
And she was singing for the pride of her father.
But that little girl did grow up to fear
The God that her family had offered
She believed that this God was the one and only
And it was for Him that she constantly suffered.
Yet for her it was still a private thing
Something she never shared with another
Then the suffering became all too much
Until she was offered grace from a brother.
He promised her that she would soon see
The world from the love of God’s eyes
He promised her that God was kind
When she shook her fist at the skies
He told her that it was for sure
That her life was not in vain
So she packed her bags and all she loved
To head east and call His name.
She looked around for one last time
As her friends tried to make her see
Then she turned that wheel of her big old truck
And headed off to Tennessee
Now it started out fine when she first settled in
At the base of those great Smokey Mountains
But it soon became a horror that she could not explain
When the brothers looked with shame at her questions
We are Promise Keepers and we shall teach you well
But you must first kneel down and repent
You must pronounce to us Jesus Christ as your savior
For it’s the reason it was us whom he sent
But they made a dreadful error that day
As they waved their arms singing Halleluiah
For when her children announced they were going back home
They said; let them go as we love you greater
Soon one morning she left without saying a word
Driving west while they all sang in church
For she feared those brothers more than she feared life itself
To be long gone when for them, they would search
Then she vowed to learn more about her belief
And about the beliefs of all others
As the world became smaller she also realized
Just how violent were the ways of those brothers
Again she read the Proverbs, Mathew, Mark and John
When she got to Deuteronomy she began to shiver
Her hands did shake as she turned each page
But she kept on as she needed an answer
For this that was told the perfect guide to morality
This called The Word of salvation and grace
It seemed nothing more than directions for murder.
Were the Apostles’ echoes simply those of disgrace?
She saw a problem here with such hypocrisy
An issue so simple but urgent
If a grim disbeliever would she lose the argument
And in heaven be labeled a tyrant
As the years went by she saw more and more
Of the horrors and suffering of some Lord
And she wondered why one God should master it all
As she looked around seeing what the Christians ignored
Even King whose non violence learned from Gandhi himself
The Hindu with a doctrine of tolerance and peace
Was in fact learned in pursuit of the Janis belief
So tell me now which God is the one who should cease
And dear Christian please tell me why your Christ is the one
Tell the Buddhists, the Muslims, the Hindus and Jews
The Serbians, the Shiite, and the Animist as well
Can you knowingly say you have walked in their shoes?
So she looked at those shoes and her heart shed a tear
Because all of them lined up were oh not the same
Yet each one left tracks of great blood in the sand
Each one in the name of their God did proclaim
She cried don’t declare we all worship some God
Don’t think that the Quran or Bible is the one
Remember the history of bloodshed and gore
Explain that to the child at the mouth of your gun
So the girl then decided which way she would go
For she knew there was no more proof to guide her
She listened to the chanting of Muslim hordes
No worse than those of the ones from your altar
And she remembered alone the words of a man
Again simple and urgent but proven
Words that she lived by and that all men could too
Without a religion which dictated your action
The man who once said he was more popular than Jesus
But never intended in a disrespectful way
As this man had the proof of his reason
In the youth who refused to blindly pray
He said God is a concept with which we measure our pain
Would rock’ n’ roll go first or Christianity
That the older generation was leading the world to ruin
Are all religions the cause of this insanity?
So she sat herself down and remembered these words
For like all of us she needed some comfort
Then she stood up so tall but dumbstruck as well
Because she felt hope and no longer just the hurt
Perhaps we would all live life better
If we were honest about our conclusions
If we didn’t hide behind some old writings of time
And refused to accept any bargains
For what reasons religion once had purpose
If only to flock as a means of survival
It now only seems to contribute
To the world’s excuse to believe in the Bible.
Imagine.
SFarmer
Belief
Belief
Smiles cost extra (Cohen)
Interesting and gutsy Sarry, and I assume S Farmer is you.
No matter what creed one is thrown into, the free thinker finds a way out.
There is a word; "apostate" that defines these people. I love the word and the position.
An apostate, being one who rejects the religion of their upbringing, moves on. They don't necessarily abandon the search for meaning or contact with some /their divinity; but they take the road less trod, and find their own meaning and "Way".
The great thing is that all religions/creeds have their apostates and meeting them (though their upbringing was different) is often like holding a mirror up.
But it is a good mirror, not self indulgent, just a reassuring pleasure that one is on a satisfying and meaningful track, and others are on it too.
But always, (for me at least) the apostatic position is the constant;
and the way to spiritual/mind freedom.
Sometimes these apostates go back to their "religion" with a new perspective, or off into another and from what Leonard Cohen's interviews say, he seems to be one who has returned happily.
Personally, I haven't. I like the view a few blocks away, under a tree, where I can listen to the distant music and breathe the fresh air and have no-one tell me how or what to think.
My creed, if anything, is Apostate.
But I read ideas from many traditions and cheer when I find authors on the same track.
Nevertheless, once a self-confirmed Apostate, never a conformist of any creed again.
No matter what creed one is thrown into, the free thinker finds a way out.
There is a word; "apostate" that defines these people. I love the word and the position.
An apostate, being one who rejects the religion of their upbringing, moves on. They don't necessarily abandon the search for meaning or contact with some /their divinity; but they take the road less trod, and find their own meaning and "Way".
The great thing is that all religions/creeds have their apostates and meeting them (though their upbringing was different) is often like holding a mirror up.
But it is a good mirror, not self indulgent, just a reassuring pleasure that one is on a satisfying and meaningful track, and others are on it too.
But always, (for me at least) the apostatic position is the constant;
and the way to spiritual/mind freedom.
Sometimes these apostates go back to their "religion" with a new perspective, or off into another and from what Leonard Cohen's interviews say, he seems to be one who has returned happily.
Personally, I haven't. I like the view a few blocks away, under a tree, where I can listen to the distant music and breathe the fresh air and have no-one tell me how or what to think.
My creed, if anything, is Apostate.
But I read ideas from many traditions and cheer when I find authors on the same track.
Nevertheless, once a self-confirmed Apostate, never a conformist of any creed again.
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
Hi Sarry ~
I very much appreciate your disclosing of your own path of seeking within a tribute to John. I listened, all of the long evening last night, to NPR do a musical tribute to him on the date of his death. It included the radio announcement from that time... a chilling memory for me. I'm glad to see you write a poetical tribute with your own significant, personal meaning. I've been where you've been, with only slightly different details. My parents were more open spiritually, but my adult explorations brought me in contact with experiences similar to yours, which ultimately made me turn away. I enjoyed your poem and the lessons it offers.
~ Lizzy
I very much appreciate your disclosing of your own path of seeking within a tribute to John. I listened, all of the long evening last night, to NPR do a musical tribute to him on the date of his death. It included the radio announcement from that time... a chilling memory for me. I'm glad to see you write a poetical tribute with your own significant, personal meaning. I've been where you've been, with only slightly different details. My parents were more open spiritually, but my adult explorations brought me in contact with experiences similar to yours, which ultimately made me turn away. I enjoyed your poem and the lessons it offers.
~ Lizzy
re
Thank you Lizzie and Mat. I certainly did not write this to gain popularity, obviously, but it gnawed at me until I gave in. I guess I am just sick of the suffering. I see enough in my profession but it is only a minute fraction of what goes on in the rest of this world. It makes me question so much. I am also tired of my neighbouring Americans going on about 911 when on the other side of the world, they are doing just that to others every day. Mat, yes perhaps I will one day float back to a belief. Who knows? Basically I am at the spot where if there is a God, well I really don't like Him very much.
And Lizzie well Lennon has had a vital impact on my life in different ways than Cohen. Thank you for sharing your feelings. I found the lines in Hallelujah interesting where Cohen sings; "...you say I took the name in vain. I don't even know the name but if I did well really, what's it to ya?..." Lennon, well he had the guts to say what he thought as well in a peaceful way. I am trying to follow that example.
You define for me, apostate. Thank you. As atheism is defined by people like Sam Harris, it is the refusal to deny the obvious. Well we could discuss this forever but you seem to understand where I am coming from.
Not an easy work. Your comments are greatly appreciated.
Sarah
And Lizzie well Lennon has had a vital impact on my life in different ways than Cohen. Thank you for sharing your feelings. I found the lines in Hallelujah interesting where Cohen sings; "...you say I took the name in vain. I don't even know the name but if I did well really, what's it to ya?..." Lennon, well he had the guts to say what he thought as well in a peaceful way. I am trying to follow that example.
You define for me, apostate. Thank you. As atheism is defined by people like Sam Harris, it is the refusal to deny the obvious. Well we could discuss this forever but you seem to understand where I am coming from.
Not an easy work. Your comments are greatly appreciated.
Sarah
Last edited by Sarry on Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Smiles cost extra (Cohen)
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Byron
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For some reason, I have the power of 'reason.' It would be unreasonable of me to deny the reasoning behind why and by whom I was given it?
As you say, we could talk for eternity about this aspect of our existence. ( Perhaps we will be given the opportunity ? )
As for the rest of the world, I notice today in 'The Sunday Times' that, Mugabe is about to be awarded the gift of being made President for life, because "he has done so many wonderful things" for Zimbabwe. His own soldiers are shooting squirrels in the Botanic Gardens of his capital, in order to eat.
Zimbabwe: 1.6 million orphans; inflation 1,070.2%; unemployment 70%. The 'breadbasket' of southern Africa, now has long queues at abattoirs to buy waste, such as pigskin, marked "not fit for human consumption."
In February, the EU's travel sanctions imposed on him will expire. France and Portugal do not want to renew the sanctions. So, perhaps the next time he is in London doing his shopping, he may pop in to a sushi restaurant for a light snack?
As you say, we could talk for eternity about this aspect of our existence. ( Perhaps we will be given the opportunity ? )
As for the rest of the world, I notice today in 'The Sunday Times' that, Mugabe is about to be awarded the gift of being made President for life, because "he has done so many wonderful things" for Zimbabwe. His own soldiers are shooting squirrels in the Botanic Gardens of his capital, in order to eat.
Zimbabwe: 1.6 million orphans; inflation 1,070.2%; unemployment 70%. The 'breadbasket' of southern Africa, now has long queues at abattoirs to buy waste, such as pigskin, marked "not fit for human consumption."
In February, the EU's travel sanctions imposed on him will expire. France and Portugal do not want to renew the sanctions. So, perhaps the next time he is in London doing his shopping, he may pop in to a sushi restaurant for a light snack?
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
re
Thank you Byron. You are obviously well read having your pulse on the goings on in this world. I had hoped that any responses would be like this creating discussion and more questions rather than any hostility. Reason is an interesting concept for interpretations of events have the virtue of being reasonable, given a certain set of assumptions.
Personally I am not prepared to condemn others before cleaning up my own yard. While I was a street nurse, I saw how our own gov't and that of the US, treated their homeless citizens. They can't even shoot squirrel but have to rely on handouts while people trip over them in the street. As a nurse in Corrections I saw how terribly cruel people can be to each other. God fearing people. I question the belief that God is watching over this. That we are better for believing this than another religion who participates in the same kinds of horror but because they are not Christian, they are worse. I wonder what kind of catastrophe will shake Christianity?
If God exists maybe He can stop some of this or He doesn't care? If in the bible He can concern himself with gay marriage or how we address His name, then is He not responsible for more important things? I don't know. But I do know that it is terrible that so many people are suffering and for the most part, in the name of some religion.
Sarah
Personally I am not prepared to condemn others before cleaning up my own yard. While I was a street nurse, I saw how our own gov't and that of the US, treated their homeless citizens. They can't even shoot squirrel but have to rely on handouts while people trip over them in the street. As a nurse in Corrections I saw how terribly cruel people can be to each other. God fearing people. I question the belief that God is watching over this. That we are better for believing this than another religion who participates in the same kinds of horror but because they are not Christian, they are worse. I wonder what kind of catastrophe will shake Christianity?
If God exists maybe He can stop some of this or He doesn't care? If in the bible He can concern himself with gay marriage or how we address His name, then is He not responsible for more important things? I don't know. But I do know that it is terrible that so many people are suffering and for the most part, in the name of some religion.
Sarah
Smiles cost extra (Cohen)
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Byron
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Taking a sideways glance at your final sentence, could it be said that all, any, and every religion, has, does, and will, behave in inhuman ways? If one accepts this viewpoint, then would it be possible to state that it isn't the religions which cause the inhumanity. The religions are often a matter of geography and demographics. If thee and me had been born and brought up in the middle east, could we reasonably expect to have been influenced by a religion which is not Christianity?
Those of us who question our existence, can enter into discussions that we are currently embarking upon in this thread. The problem for any such quest in the wider world, is who we ask for guidance and who purports to have the answers. In other words, the religions are not the harbingers of evil. The articulate and persuasive advocates of religions are the cultivators of the seeds of evil. Is 'man' in his many guises, as the exploiter of his position of power and influence, the evil.
It would be wrong to accuse a religion of being evil without studying it first. However, we only need to read and listen to the words of a few prominent individuals, in any religion, to be aware of the personal interpretations that they pronounce as dogma.
Those of us who question our existence, can enter into discussions that we are currently embarking upon in this thread. The problem for any such quest in the wider world, is who we ask for guidance and who purports to have the answers. In other words, the religions are not the harbingers of evil. The articulate and persuasive advocates of religions are the cultivators of the seeds of evil. Is 'man' in his many guises, as the exploiter of his position of power and influence, the evil.
It would be wrong to accuse a religion of being evil without studying it first. However, we only need to read and listen to the words of a few prominent individuals, in any religion, to be aware of the personal interpretations that they pronounce as dogma.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Byron
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On a separate point, I understand the matter of keeping one's own backyard in a civilised and welcoming state. How society takes care of its weak and vulnerable, is a yardstick of the measure of its humanity.
Men like Carnegie and Lord Leverhulme are exemplars of how an industrially oppressed citizenry can be helped. Seeing wrongs being done and acknowledging that wrongs are being done, has to be a first step in any purposeful effort, to publicly broadcast, that which we know is wrong.
Individuals, groups, countries and our planet are being raped. Untold damage is being done. Now, more than ever before, the facts emerge into the cold, hard, light of day. And so, the 'untold' can gradually be brought into the public domain. Acknowledging 'facts,' while feeling powerless to influence events, is truly frustrating.
So many 'causes' could benefit from our input. So many 'abuses' and abusers could be exposed and brought to book. Starting in our own backyard is the right place to concentrate our efforts. For now, acknowledging the extent of evil is what we can do in a public way.
Men like Carnegie and Lord Leverhulme are exemplars of how an industrially oppressed citizenry can be helped. Seeing wrongs being done and acknowledging that wrongs are being done, has to be a first step in any purposeful effort, to publicly broadcast, that which we know is wrong.
Individuals, groups, countries and our planet are being raped. Untold damage is being done. Now, more than ever before, the facts emerge into the cold, hard, light of day. And so, the 'untold' can gradually be brought into the public domain. Acknowledging 'facts,' while feeling powerless to influence events, is truly frustrating.
So many 'causes' could benefit from our input. So many 'abuses' and abusers could be exposed and brought to book. Starting in our own backyard is the right place to concentrate our efforts. For now, acknowledging the extent of evil is what we can do in a public way.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
re
Yes, of course one can say that it isn’t the religions that cause the inhumanity and people of all faiths will assure that God is not responsible for the suffering. It is the evil of man. However history shows that most conflicts are religiously based. Conflicts that cause this suffering. If we cannot blame God for our human standards of morality, then why are those standards precisely what we use to establish God’s goodness?
I have asked who do we go to for advice if there is no God? It is proven that humans need something for that purpose. A higher being to set controls on our behaviour. Something or someone to give us hope. But I find that in spirituality, not religion. To endorse those things that bring happiness such as love. Personally I believe in Darwin’s theory and not that of the fundamentalists.
Evil. The famous ones such as Hitler, Stalin, and Zedong. If you study people who are pure evil one will find that they are not so much rejecting religion but that they are accepting other myths as well. Christian Europeans have hated Jews for centuries. Muslims still believe that Jews murder non-Jews to use their blood for religious rituals. So many do condone their actions on a religious base. If you look at the US for example, the highest rates of crime are in the bible belt. The US as a whole as one of the weathiest democracies that uphold faith, has high rates of the worst of crimes. On the flip side, those countries with the highest levels of atheism are the most charitable and peaceful. So yes, I believe in the evil of man. Explain that to those who think that this evil and the horrors that it causes are the height of some moral wisdom of God.
I once had to care for a man who drugged his son and laid him on the tracks before an oncoming train. Why? Because God told him to and if it was wrong he will of course be forgiven.
I have asked who do we go to for advice if there is no God? It is proven that humans need something for that purpose. A higher being to set controls on our behaviour. Something or someone to give us hope. But I find that in spirituality, not religion. To endorse those things that bring happiness such as love. Personally I believe in Darwin’s theory and not that of the fundamentalists.
Evil. The famous ones such as Hitler, Stalin, and Zedong. If you study people who are pure evil one will find that they are not so much rejecting religion but that they are accepting other myths as well. Christian Europeans have hated Jews for centuries. Muslims still believe that Jews murder non-Jews to use their blood for religious rituals. So many do condone their actions on a religious base. If you look at the US for example, the highest rates of crime are in the bible belt. The US as a whole as one of the weathiest democracies that uphold faith, has high rates of the worst of crimes. On the flip side, those countries with the highest levels of atheism are the most charitable and peaceful. So yes, I believe in the evil of man. Explain that to those who think that this evil and the horrors that it causes are the height of some moral wisdom of God.
I once had to care for a man who drugged his son and laid him on the tracks before an oncoming train. Why? Because God told him to and if it was wrong he will of course be forgiven.
Smiles cost extra (Cohen)
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Byron
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Immorality versus goodness.
Religion versus spirituality.
Fundamentalists versus Darwin.
Christians versus Jews.
Muslims versus Jews.
Bible versus atheism
Crime versus goodness.
Man's evil versus the morality of God.
Mental illness (schizophrenia ?) versus abrogation of responsibility. Was Isaac schizophrenic? That's the implication if we take one view of it.
There's a polarity of views in here that needs respectful consideration.
Man is free to do anything he wants. That freedom carries tremendous responsibility. Blaming God when things go wrong is easy. Praising God when things go well is easy. It's the bits in the middle that require the effort.
Sunnis fight Shiias. Protestants fight Catholics. Gays fight straights. Blacks fight whites. Capitalists fight communists. There's a polarity of views in here too.
It's the bits in the middle that require the effort.
God is good or God is bad? Is He being tarred with the same brush?
Religion versus spirituality.
Fundamentalists versus Darwin.
Christians versus Jews.
Muslims versus Jews.
Bible versus atheism
Crime versus goodness.
Man's evil versus the morality of God.
Mental illness (schizophrenia ?) versus abrogation of responsibility. Was Isaac schizophrenic? That's the implication if we take one view of it.
There's a polarity of views in here that needs respectful consideration.
Man is free to do anything he wants. That freedom carries tremendous responsibility. Blaming God when things go wrong is easy. Praising God when things go well is easy. It's the bits in the middle that require the effort.
Sunnis fight Shiias. Protestants fight Catholics. Gays fight straights. Blacks fight whites. Capitalists fight communists. There's a polarity of views in here too.
It's the bits in the middle that require the effort.
God is good or God is bad? Is He being tarred with the same brush?
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
the creation of the omniverse is dependent on opposites
from positive and negative charges onward.
It is just the way it is.
But I suppose we (humans) can strive for some form of beauty/harmony.
I enjoyed reading your (Byron and Sarry) thoughts above.
Mat.
from positive and negative charges onward.
It is just the way it is.
But I suppose we (humans) can strive for some form of beauty/harmony.
I enjoyed reading your (Byron and Sarry) thoughts above.
Mat.
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
God bless you
Sarry, if all people had the heart of god that you have shown in your working career and in your life, this planet would be a much more beautiful place. Of course this does not give you the right to judge God though that would make you a bigger and better deity; however, doubt is. Unfortunately it has been throughout time, Chaim Potok said of Carl Marx that he was simply depressed, I rejected this once as superficial, however faith can be a remarkable revelation or it can be a simple nurturing experience, it may cause blindness or it may cause great things to happen depending upon ones propensity for community.
In moments of darkness we must find what light we can.
This is my observation; I enjoyed reading your poem, and the ensuing conversation. Thank you both.
In moments of darkness we must find what light we can.
This is my observation; I enjoyed reading your poem, and the ensuing conversation. Thank you both.
re
Jim,
I thank you for the great compliment although I cannot accept. Those very few who know and love me in private life have had to learn exceptional tolerance and patience.
I am pleased that you have enjoyed our discussion. Mat, the same to you.
Sarah
I thank you for the great compliment although I cannot accept. Those very few who know and love me in private life have had to learn exceptional tolerance and patience.
I am pleased that you have enjoyed our discussion. Mat, the same to you.
Sarah
Smiles cost extra (Cohen)
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Byron
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Sarah, you may find this link of interest;
http://darwin-online.org.uk/
The Beagle Diaries are being read each day this week on BBC Radio4.
Some beautiful sketches from the published work. It takes a moment to download, but well worth the wait.
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/fra ... pageseq=38
And some more links to images. Scroll down to Illustrations.
http://darwin-online.org.uk/majorworks.html
http://darwin-online.org.uk/
The Beagle Diaries are being read each day this week on BBC Radio4.
Some beautiful sketches from the published work. It takes a moment to download, but well worth the wait.
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/fra ... pageseq=38
And some more links to images. Scroll down to Illustrations.
http://darwin-online.org.uk/majorworks.html
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.