For some time I have been wondering about some seemingly obvious lyrics of Leonard's. Some of them could possibly be references to war (Song if Isaac), but there are some lyrics that appear to be blatantly anti-abortion (The Future).
They appear in every era. Has this ever been discussed on the forum?
Is Leonard in record as being anti-abortion?
Where do forum members stand on this issue?
I am firmly pro-choice, but have gone to great lengths to avoid having to make this decision in my personal life.
choice
choice
"...and for something like a second, I was cured, and my heart was at ease."
jeannieb,
I have been wondering the same thing because of "The Future" song. I think in "The Future" song he was talking about "We" as the people in the future and not as himself or the people necessarily in the present when we wrote the song. I don't think he was making any moral statements in the song but is more or less describing a view of the future.
I am pro-choice myself but I rarely make it an issue with anyone and have thankfully not had to deal with it with anyone I have been with.
-Sean
http://www.livejournal.com/users/passthrufire
I have been wondering the same thing because of "The Future" song. I think in "The Future" song he was talking about "We" as the people in the future and not as himself or the people necessarily in the present when we wrote the song. I don't think he was making any moral statements in the song but is more or less describing a view of the future.
I am pro-choice myself but I rarely make it an issue with anyone and have thankfully not had to deal with it with anyone I have been with.
-Sean
http://www.livejournal.com/users/passthrufire
Sean,
I agree with your comment about the 'Voice" in The Future.
Another reference-- I listenened last night to "Diamonds In the Mine", and therein is the line "he taught a hundred women how to kill and unborn child".
Cheers
I agree with your comment about the 'Voice" in The Future.
Another reference-- I listenened last night to "Diamonds In the Mine", and therein is the line "he taught a hundred women how to kill and unborn child".
Cheers
"...and for something like a second, I was cured, and my heart was at ease."
jeannieb,
There is a sort of preoccupation with unborn children in Cohen's work when compared to others. I personally wonder if he views the killing of unborn children as a sign of the times.
I enjoy investigating these things too because he is not quick to pass out moral judgments which makes his work harder to pin down.
-Sean
http://www.livejournal.com/users/passthrufire
There is a sort of preoccupation with unborn children in Cohen's work when compared to others. I personally wonder if he views the killing of unborn children as a sign of the times.
I enjoy investigating these things too because he is not quick to pass out moral judgments which makes his work harder to pin down.
-Sean
http://www.livejournal.com/users/passthrufire
choice
I am unsure of the stillborn reference, but the others seem to be. Of course, abortion is not "new", or peculiar to our times, it was just formerly hidden.
And of course, you all know this.
And of course, you all know this.
"...and for something like a second, I was cured, and my heart was at ease."
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peter danielsen
- Posts: 921
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:45 pm
A few thoughts :
The lines "destroy another fetus now" is followed by the motivation of the the listeners and the speaker "we dont like children" the speaker is in it himself, he do not just condemn others. This statement is followed by "Ive seen the future, it is murder", here we must remember that in the song murder means both killing and chaos. It could be seen as chaotic if the "future baby" is indeed destroyed. Notice also that it say fetus, which is unpersonal and clinical, but children later when it is the collective which speak. It is society which dont like children, men and woman share responsabillity.
Also in the hebrew bible children is seen as the blessing of God, but the condition of the continuation of Gods blessing is the keeping of the covenant, "there'll be the breaking of the ancient western code". Maybe this breaking of the code, and the destruction of Gods blessing through destruction of another fetus, is examples of the hardening of humans
Peter
Peter
The lines "destroy another fetus now" is followed by the motivation of the the listeners and the speaker "we dont like children" the speaker is in it himself, he do not just condemn others. This statement is followed by "Ive seen the future, it is murder", here we must remember that in the song murder means both killing and chaos. It could be seen as chaotic if the "future baby" is indeed destroyed. Notice also that it say fetus, which is unpersonal and clinical, but children later when it is the collective which speak. It is society which dont like children, men and woman share responsabillity.
Also in the hebrew bible children is seen as the blessing of God, but the condition of the continuation of Gods blessing is the keeping of the covenant, "there'll be the breaking of the ancient western code". Maybe this breaking of the code, and the destruction of Gods blessing through destruction of another fetus, is examples of the hardening of humans
Peter
Peter
...I ..... .... ....... made . ..... ...... by ....... music .. ..... .. ......
Peter,
I followed up reading your post, which reveals such thoughtful and knowledgeable analysis, with a visit to your profile, and see that you are a student of theology. I found your comments also show an acute "ear" for the nuances of the English language. I had not considered the differences in the use of "we" and and "I" to denote the personal and the collective pointof view.
I just returned from seeing Fahrenheit 451, and wonder what Leonard would say about the "hardening" of humanity that promotes the murder of humans for the sake of oil profits?
This song is more pertinent than ever.
I followed up reading your post, which reveals such thoughtful and knowledgeable analysis, with a visit to your profile, and see that you are a student of theology. I found your comments also show an acute "ear" for the nuances of the English language. I had not considered the differences in the use of "we" and and "I" to denote the personal and the collective pointof view.
I just returned from seeing Fahrenheit 451, and wonder what Leonard would say about the "hardening" of humanity that promotes the murder of humans for the sake of oil profits?
This song is more pertinent than ever.
"...and for something like a second, I was cured, and my heart was at ease."
I am seeing Fahrenheit 911 tomorrow, woohoo! If you looked at comments in the NYC 2004 Convention in the "Dear Heather" message, Joe Way wrote the following:
"It ("On That Day") is certainly an "us" vs. "them" song. It emphasizes the day that "they" wounded New York. Leonard's use of pronouns has rarely been more effective (though, it is a device that he has employed from the beginning). I couldn't help but think of some of the threads here and how Leonard embraces the tone of the discussion between the "greed" of the west-the U.S. etc. and the murderous quality of the reigning opposition."
I agree with what Joe says about the song and I also extend this to include Leonard's personal belief about politics and the world situation right now.
-Sean
http://www.livejournal.com/users/passthrufire
"It ("On That Day") is certainly an "us" vs. "them" song. It emphasizes the day that "they" wounded New York. Leonard's use of pronouns has rarely been more effective (though, it is a device that he has employed from the beginning). I couldn't help but think of some of the threads here and how Leonard embraces the tone of the discussion between the "greed" of the west-the U.S. etc. and the murderous quality of the reigning opposition."
I agree with what Joe says about the song and I also extend this to include Leonard's personal belief about politics and the world situation right now.
-Sean
http://www.livejournal.com/users/passthrufire
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peter danielsen
- Posts: 921
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:45 pm
dear jeannieb
Yes I do study theology. Our study involves to major papers of own choice at the end of the study which can be in any of the disciplines of theology( church history, Philosofi, religious pluralism, dogmatics, old- and new testament etc)
My two major papers both revolves around Leonard Cohen. My first paper, the shorter one(30 pages) is Called :"Leonard Cohen: Absolute poetry on the conditions of the postmodern" and involves an analysis of "The Stranger Song" "Story of Isaac" and "The Future".
My second paper I am just begining, and is going to be about ability of religious langue to speak about that which transcends reason, and at the same time gives reason and being its power. I shall use examples from cohen in this paper, using the german/american theologian Paul Tillich and danish Søren Kierkegaard as my theoretical basis for this paper.
Jarkko and I have agreed to post parts of my first paper on the files/forum as soon as I get it translated to english.
Thanks for your kind remarks on my comments on the future.
Peter
Yes I do study theology. Our study involves to major papers of own choice at the end of the study which can be in any of the disciplines of theology( church history, Philosofi, religious pluralism, dogmatics, old- and new testament etc)
My two major papers both revolves around Leonard Cohen. My first paper, the shorter one(30 pages) is Called :"Leonard Cohen: Absolute poetry on the conditions of the postmodern" and involves an analysis of "The Stranger Song" "Story of Isaac" and "The Future".
My second paper I am just begining, and is going to be about ability of religious langue to speak about that which transcends reason, and at the same time gives reason and being its power. I shall use examples from cohen in this paper, using the german/american theologian Paul Tillich and danish Søren Kierkegaard as my theoretical basis for this paper.
Jarkko and I have agreed to post parts of my first paper on the files/forum as soon as I get it translated to english.
Thanks for your kind remarks on my comments on the future.
Peter
...I ..... .... ....... made . ..... ...... by ....... music .. ..... .. ......
Whoops! Yes, I did mean Fahreheit 911. And, Peter, I will very much look forward to reading you work in The Files.
Re: Kiss The Sky, the film CD I got from EBay becasue it has a Cohen Soudtrack--- well, let's just say the soundtrack is by far the best thing about it. The dialogue is entirely pretentious pseudodeep claptrap, although I think some of what the main character says about women not revealing what they really want (or even knowing what it is) rings true. But, I guess it might be true of both sexes. It does have some lovely scenery, supposedly in the Phillipines, although it is disconcerting to hear the Eastern Tree Frog and Atlantic Loon in the background.
Re: Kiss The Sky, the film CD I got from EBay becasue it has a Cohen Soudtrack--- well, let's just say the soundtrack is by far the best thing about it. The dialogue is entirely pretentious pseudodeep claptrap, although I think some of what the main character says about women not revealing what they really want (or even knowing what it is) rings true. But, I guess it might be true of both sexes. It does have some lovely scenery, supposedly in the Phillipines, although it is disconcerting to hear the Eastern Tree Frog and Atlantic Loon in the background.
"...and for something like a second, I was cured, and my heart was at ease."
Peter, i hate to push you, but you did PROMISE to share your paper with the rest of us on the Stranger Song thread. 
, and why can't it be the whole paper? i prefer reading completed works than to think what did i miss.
anyway, i don't think Leonard is anti- or pro- abortion. i think he's neither left or right, he's just noting that abortion is a sport-of-the-future.
my personal opinion is that abortion shuld be legal, but shouldn't be used. in other words: if someone wants to do it, she should be allowed, but i think everybody should grow strong enough personality to deal with his actions (getting a child) rather than just killing it.
to abort a child is to kill it. the child has no concience yet, so it's hardly a classic murder, but i still think that a healthy person shouldn't put herself trough such a torture that an idea of killing her own child might, later in life, grow to be.
, and why can't it be the whole paper? i prefer reading completed works than to think what did i miss.anyway, i don't think Leonard is anti- or pro- abortion. i think he's neither left or right, he's just noting that abortion is a sport-of-the-future.
my personal opinion is that abortion shuld be legal, but shouldn't be used. in other words: if someone wants to do it, she should be allowed, but i think everybody should grow strong enough personality to deal with his actions (getting a child) rather than just killing it.
to abort a child is to kill it. the child has no concience yet, so it's hardly a classic murder, but i still think that a healthy person shouldn't put herself trough such a torture that an idea of killing her own child might, later in life, grow to be.
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peter danielsen
- Posts: 921
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:45 pm
yes you're rigt jurica, Its better to share the whole paper, and I also think it would be better as the method presented in the beginning is the paradigm for the whole work.
On wedensday 30 june I have a very important exam which I have been working on for a year( at this point being close to emotional and physical breakedown)I will try to have my paper translated( or maybe do it myself) very shortly after.
It is my clear ambition to begin working on a book on cohen this fall, I will like to express the attitude that leonard Cohens poetry( in songs and books) opens up for a possibillity to take the ambiguities of life upon oneself and thereby transcending them in life.
I write songs myself now(several each day) but my education and life(life as education, and eductaion as life) has been highly touched by Cohens work. I am in debt and would like to pay of a modest part of this debt by writing books about his contribution to art.
Peter
On wedensday 30 june I have a very important exam which I have been working on for a year( at this point being close to emotional and physical breakedown)I will try to have my paper translated( or maybe do it myself) very shortly after.
It is my clear ambition to begin working on a book on cohen this fall, I will like to express the attitude that leonard Cohens poetry( in songs and books) opens up for a possibillity to take the ambiguities of life upon oneself and thereby transcending them in life.
I write songs myself now(several each day) but my education and life(life as education, and eductaion as life) has been highly touched by Cohens work. I am in debt and would like to pay of a modest part of this debt by writing books about his contribution to art.
Peter
...I ..... .... ....... made . ..... ...... by ....... music .. ..... .. ......
It is my impression that Cohen doesn't see this, or any other issue as black and white. I have always loved the 'exploration of the shades of grey' quality to his work.
This is from here:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pilgraeme/closing_time.htm
"Let's not pretend that we know anything about anything. This is a mess. Let's join hands and be in this mess together. Let's not pretend one of us has a solution that the other hasn't figured out. We're in this boat together It always amuses me to know we're in this catastrophy, the flood is calm, the landmarks are overturned, the lights are extinguished, each man holding to his piece of orange crate, broken flag staff , and we still hear "I'm for abortion", "I'm against abortion" "I'm for the left", "I'm for the right". In the midst of this urgency, how dare we speak. Our needs are so manifold we dare not declare them. "
This is from here:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pilgraeme/closing_time.htm
"Let's not pretend that we know anything about anything. This is a mess. Let's join hands and be in this mess together. Let's not pretend one of us has a solution that the other hasn't figured out. We're in this boat together It always amuses me to know we're in this catastrophy, the flood is calm, the landmarks are overturned, the lights are extinguished, each man holding to his piece of orange crate, broken flag staff , and we still hear "I'm for abortion", "I'm against abortion" "I'm for the left", "I'm for the right". In the midst of this urgency, how dare we speak. Our needs are so manifold we dare not declare them. "