This weekend, on the 60th anniversary of D-Day, I'm playing Leonard's "The Partisan" (live at Austin City Limits, 1988).
More importantly, I am reminded of the bravery and sacrifice of hundreds of thousands who "invaded" Normandy on June 6th, 1944.
My Dad was a "D-Day Dodger", way out in Italy, the so-called "soft underbelly of Europe" (according to Churchill).
Tell that to the veterans of the battles for Monte Cassino, the Hitler Line, the Gothic Line.
My thoughts go to all those who fought against the Nazis.
NEVER AGAIN !!!
With respect,
Andrew.
The Partisan
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Andrew McGeever
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 10:02 pm
funny fact:
did you know that there was an anti-Nazi squad in Croatia (there were a lot of German people here before the WWII) constituted completely from German people? it was the only one in the world. therefore - it wasn't the genes after all.
another funny fact:
after the war in which many of those Germans gave their lives for freedom (back then it seemed that Germany is bound to win, and they could have easily joined them), they were mostly chased out of the country by our own partisans with nowhere to go. they were unwanted here, they were unwanted in Germany... now that's politics for you.
did you know that there was an anti-Nazi squad in Croatia (there were a lot of German people here before the WWII) constituted completely from German people? it was the only one in the world. therefore - it wasn't the genes after all.
another funny fact:
after the war in which many of those Germans gave their lives for freedom (back then it seemed that Germany is bound to win, and they could have easily joined them), they were mostly chased out of the country by our own partisans with nowhere to go. they were unwanted here, they were unwanted in Germany... now that's politics for you.
I've never believed any of it was 'in the genes' ~ it was an aberration of mentality and spirituality, with a lot of gullibility and more aberration of thinking 
. It was a great misfortune and tragedy all the way around . How sorrowful for those Germans who stood up for what they believed in .
~ Elizabeth
. It was a great misfortune and tragedy all the way around . How sorrowful for those Germans who stood up for what they believed in .~ Elizabeth
As far as I remember the prevailing thought seems to be that one is born either with or without a predispositon, whether to a particular mental or physical illness or to the ability or intent to commit evil or intensely "good" acts. Research has been done which seems to lend credence to the idea that under certain conditions the predispostion will become reality, while under different conditions it will not.
Having been raised in a country where, while not in as openly an exterminating mood as Nazi Germany, the accepted social norm was that one race was superior to another (we won't even mention those stuck in between), I think I can safely vouch for a reasonable amount of accuracy regarding that theory. Some children raised in households that accepted an unjust system, as adults behaved as expected, while others, often from the same household, rebelled against what they saw as evil.
However, in my opinion, genes have to be taken into account - I've seen children raised to believe that the comfort of others, even if they were considered less equal
was to be considered, grow into a realisation of the evil of the then prevailing system, while those children raised to believe that "inferior" life was worthless and meaningless, acquired the qualities that would have served them well in Nazi Germany. Good stock breeds good, evil breeds evil (and all the grays in between). I also think that most people just don't want to recognise the presence of evil - this too I've experienced. It's always easier to hide one's head in the sand and hope it will go away - or someone else will make it go away. I sincerely feel the statement "...but I didn't know..." must be believed, however difficult this may be. The subconscious knows - but the conscious mind cannot face the reality and so suppresses what it believes it can't rectify without endangering the safety of the organism.
There are very few really brave people - people who can and will recognise evil and raise their voices against it - no matter the consequences... and of course it's always easier to sit back and say "It's not happening to ME - let those concerned fight for themselves". What we tend to disregard is that those in the battle today will perish without help and tomorrow we'll be in the frontlines - without help.
Figuratively speaking of course......
Jo
Having been raised in a country where, while not in as openly an exterminating mood as Nazi Germany, the accepted social norm was that one race was superior to another (we won't even mention those stuck in between), I think I can safely vouch for a reasonable amount of accuracy regarding that theory. Some children raised in households that accepted an unjust system, as adults behaved as expected, while others, often from the same household, rebelled against what they saw as evil.
However, in my opinion, genes have to be taken into account - I've seen children raised to believe that the comfort of others, even if they were considered less equal
was to be considered, grow into a realisation of the evil of the then prevailing system, while those children raised to believe that "inferior" life was worthless and meaningless, acquired the qualities that would have served them well in Nazi Germany. Good stock breeds good, evil breeds evil (and all the grays in between). I also think that most people just don't want to recognise the presence of evil - this too I've experienced. It's always easier to hide one's head in the sand and hope it will go away - or someone else will make it go away. I sincerely feel the statement "...but I didn't know..." must be believed, however difficult this may be. The subconscious knows - but the conscious mind cannot face the reality and so suppresses what it believes it can't rectify without endangering the safety of the organism. There are very few really brave people - people who can and will recognise evil and raise their voices against it - no matter the consequences... and of course it's always easier to sit back and say "It's not happening to ME - let those concerned fight for themselves". What we tend to disregard is that those in the battle today will perish without help and tomorrow we'll be in the frontlines - without help.
Figuratively speaking of course......
Jo
"... to make a pale imitation of reality with twenty-six juggled letters"
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
It is too easy to brand people evil. I don't know much about genetics but what you are talking about Jo is nature and nurture. It is how the children of evil people are reared. If a child is brought up with a sadistic/evil person that child will perceive it as the norm. It does not follow that child was inherently evil to begin with. There are of course people who are born evil/mad and that has nothing to do with nurture.
The German "cannon fodder" along with the allied "cannon fodder" were young men who were put in a situation and told to deal with it. It does not follow that they were evil the bulk of soldiers were going about their normal lives before being thrust into a war they were conscripted.
I refuse to believe the bulk of those young men were evil. The German soldiers were brainwashed more so than the allies but that is not too hard to do with the masses. If you are told that you are doing something for the greater good and enough people believe that to be the case the uncertain ones will follow the masses.
I always had a problem understanding why the Jews in the concentration camps went so quietly and unprotesting to the gas chambers. I can only assume they thought if they didn't make a fuss then they would be spared. I don't know why, I don't know if there had been an uprising whether they could have done anything given the circumstances.
But to brand a nation evil is wrong. Brand the leaders of such a nation and brand the ringleaders and rebel rousers but don't brand the people of that country.
When sheep are being led to the slaughter they are led by a sheep called a Judas sheep or Judas Goat. The Judas sheep/goat leads the others to the abatior in a peaceful fashion. The JS is then separated from the flock the masses go to their slaughter and the JS lives to fight another day and lead another flock to their death. I think a similar thing happened in the concentration camps.
* Judas goat: The stockyards use such a goat to lead the sheep to slaughter. Without the aid of a Judas goat, the sheep would mill around endlessly in the pen and would not enter or traverse the chute to the slaughter house. The Judas goat, mingling with the sheep, is trained to lead them out of the pen and down the chute to the slaughterhouse. And at the last second, the Judas goat is allowed to escape by a side-gate while the sheep go to their appointed end.
The German "cannon fodder" along with the allied "cannon fodder" were young men who were put in a situation and told to deal with it. It does not follow that they were evil the bulk of soldiers were going about their normal lives before being thrust into a war they were conscripted.
I refuse to believe the bulk of those young men were evil. The German soldiers were brainwashed more so than the allies but that is not too hard to do with the masses. If you are told that you are doing something for the greater good and enough people believe that to be the case the uncertain ones will follow the masses.
I always had a problem understanding why the Jews in the concentration camps went so quietly and unprotesting to the gas chambers. I can only assume they thought if they didn't make a fuss then they would be spared. I don't know why, I don't know if there had been an uprising whether they could have done anything given the circumstances.
But to brand a nation evil is wrong. Brand the leaders of such a nation and brand the ringleaders and rebel rousers but don't brand the people of that country.
When sheep are being led to the slaughter they are led by a sheep called a Judas sheep or Judas Goat. The Judas sheep/goat leads the others to the abatior in a peaceful fashion. The JS is then separated from the flock the masses go to their slaughter and the JS lives to fight another day and lead another flock to their death. I think a similar thing happened in the concentration camps.
* Judas goat: The stockyards use such a goat to lead the sheep to slaughter. Without the aid of a Judas goat, the sheep would mill around endlessly in the pen and would not enter or traverse the chute to the slaughter house. The Judas goat, mingling with the sheep, is trained to lead them out of the pen and down the chute to the slaughterhouse. And at the last second, the Judas goat is allowed to escape by a side-gate while the sheep go to their appointed end.
Paula - I do believe that the capacity to commit evil acts does exist in some people, whatever their upbringing taught them but I certainly would not label an entire nation evil - I would then have to label myself evil and I'm not quite ready to do that yet
Yes - I do agree that there are people who allow themselves, willingly or unwillingly, to be led to the slaughter - as there are people who allow themselves, willingly or unwillingly, to be led to do the slaughtering. Human nature and behaviour is far too complex and there are far too many influences to assign one simplistic reason to any particular individualistic or mass act.
I also do believe that there comes a time when one must choose between behaviour that is destructive in order to prevent a bigger act of destruction, or keep out of it and allow the evil to flourish. I certainly think that was the case in WW2 - but do remember that the Axis and the Allies both believed (to quote Bob Dylan) they had "God on their side".
The SA Nationalist Party also believed they had God on their side - as did the ANC and all the dissenters. Many unspeakable acts were committed on both sides by misguided souls who believed that they were struggling to maintain God's will and by those who believed they were struggling to remove an evil cancer. It's easier to justify those acts under the conviction that your side is "right" (whether your side is in fact right, left or somewhere in between )
Jo
Yes - I do agree that there are people who allow themselves, willingly or unwillingly, to be led to the slaughter - as there are people who allow themselves, willingly or unwillingly, to be led to do the slaughtering. Human nature and behaviour is far too complex and there are far too many influences to assign one simplistic reason to any particular individualistic or mass act.
I also do believe that there comes a time when one must choose between behaviour that is destructive in order to prevent a bigger act of destruction, or keep out of it and allow the evil to flourish. I certainly think that was the case in WW2 - but do remember that the Axis and the Allies both believed (to quote Bob Dylan) they had "God on their side".
The SA Nationalist Party also believed they had God on their side - as did the ANC and all the dissenters. Many unspeakable acts were committed on both sides by misguided souls who believed that they were struggling to maintain God's will and by those who believed they were struggling to remove an evil cancer. It's easier to justify those acts under the conviction that your side is "right" (whether your side is in fact right, left or somewhere in between
)Jo
"... to make a pale imitation of reality with twenty-six juggled letters"
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
Paula& Jo~ very interesting discussion 
Right- people tend to follow strong ideology for many reasons.\, but I do agree with Paula about the German soldiers. I remember what my mother told me about the WW2. Under the German occupation, some of military units ( I think the radio communication) were placed on my family's farm. My mother told that the German soldiers were good people, sick and tired of the war, helping at the farm with every work there was to do, they missed their families. They were kind and polite, and obviously didn't believe much in herr Adolf's mad speeches. Just, that was a war and they were soldiers~ they hated the SS as much as everyone else.
Right- people tend to follow strong ideology for many reasons.\, but I do agree with Paula about the German soldiers. I remember what my mother told me about the WW2. Under the German occupation, some of military units ( I think the radio communication) were placed on my family's farm. My mother told that the German soldiers were good people, sick and tired of the war, helping at the farm with every work there was to do, they missed their families. They were kind and polite, and obviously didn't believe much in herr Adolf's mad speeches. Just, that was a war and they were soldiers~ they hated the SS as much as everyone else.
bee