Poetry & Music by the Forum Members - Plathitudes

[Juan Juanders]

Jj

[imaginary friend]

Peace and goodwill to you too, One Wonders, and I'm relieved you are popping out the poem, rather than pooping it out, (the way poems sometimes emerge in Marishaland...)


XO

Also,
XO to Fearless, sweet Cate
XO to Merciful, sweet Violet
XO to Teratogen (restless young Turk)
XO to Marisha (M.P., Q.C.) for livenin' up things around here, girl/banana!

[Teratogen]

Marisha is a troll. The writing is not hers/his/its. It is a pre-calculated essay that just needs the insertion of a name to slander.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do about the word "retard." Okay, as a verb it's fine but as a noun it's not. Silly. Very silly. Retard: short for "retarded." Ex.: a retarded person. You know what that is, right? I'll tell you what it's not: malicious, malevolent, or derogatory. "Universally accepted...," "ethical individuals...," "labeling...," ... I don't give greater clout to euphemisms just because they sound nicer on the ears. I don't care what's universally accepted. I don't care about the idea that we ought to uphold some kind of moral and ethical standard. You want to be a good person? Fine, okay, wonderful. Creating some constitution of ethics? Bogus. Labeling... now that's a word that sounds derogatory. But it's just a word. And it's something that everybody does but will never admit. However, I was not "labeling." I wasn't describing a seemingly normal person as a retard, I was describing a retard as a retard. There is nothing derogatory there. A blind person is blind. A deaf person is deaf. An invalid is an invalid. And a retarded person is retarded. I'm not name-calling or anything. Is this all understood?

[Alsiony]

Thanks for this thread Juan

I was kinda thinking, whilst reading this thread and the related one before, in regard to the more negative aspects that seem to be a growing in this lovely place, and while differences make the world go round, and, regardless of right or wrong, there has been a healthy abundance of conversation and debate going on, (and long may this precious ethos reign supreme I say!)...
Now might be the perfect time for all to 'retire to lounge area of the public house, where everyone will offer to buy each other a round' - ya know, 'lay back in the tipi and smoke a peace pipe man' -??

A
x

[Juan Juanders]

Jj

[Teratogen]

I apologize if I seem angry. I don't get angry over things like this. In fact I hardly ever get angry anymore. My role, I have found, in most conversations of varying kinds is to play the devil's advocate. While the nature of that role creates and fuels arguments, the greater intention is to inspire an attention to other possible ideas and viewpoints, to entertain notions that perhaps were not once thought of.

When I do something I do not feel is warranting of an attack I get a bit defensive, but that's only natural, is it not? You are suggesting I try to approach this conversation with an open mind. The way I am seeing it is that an open mind cannot co-exist with its attackers. Not to mention I feel my attackers are not viewing my position with an open mind. Perhaps that is not easy for you or for others to see and so we arrive at an impasse.

I thank you for reading my poetry and enjoying them, I really do. I don't feel that my personal beliefs have any bearing on the quality of my work. The subject matter of my work, that's another story. We can get into an argument over ethics and over labeling if you'd like. I don't think this situation really has anything to do with it. My point, and I'll state it again, is very simple actually: Retarded is an adjective, a word describing the state of mental retardation. A deaf person is deaf, a blind person is blind, an old person is old, a black person is black, and a retarded person is a retard. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MALICIOUS ABOUT THAT. I'm not angry, I just want to make that clear.

I could say "hearing impaired" instead of deaf, "vision impaired" instead of blind, "elderly" instead of old, "African-American" instead of black, and "mentally disabled" instead of retarded. It is what it is. I do not choose the words I use for the sake of being derogatory or uneducated. There has been a grotesque influx of sensitivity issues over the last several years and I find it quite silly. It just goes to show how very little we think of ourselves to find ourselves offended by the most ridiculous things. I refuse to speak in euphemisms just for the sake of making a word sound "less harsh."

Whenever I have arguments with people their way of trying to end it is to always say "Well, you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Agree to disagree?" I don't care about being respected. I just don't want to be misunderstood.

[Alsiony]

Speaking from my own point of view- I have understood everything you have said very well. I have also understood the opposing views that have been iterated the same.
In a way - I don't think either side of the argument is wrong. Fundamentally what has been high-lighted here, is the fact that very little of life is strict black or white, yae or nae, right or wrong.

I don't care about being respected

Respect is paramount in the regard of treating others how you would like to be treated yourself. If you wish to receive some kind of respect from other people - it usually means that you willing to dish out respect in return, and that is welcoming and fair. It depends on what you want in life- for this statement I make, I believe to be applicable to all things.

Whenever I have arguments with people their way of trying to end it is to always say "Well, you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Agree to disagree?"

I just don't want to be misunderstood.

My 'peace-pipe' suggestion was not a cop-out by any stretch of the imagination. I personally believe that taking such steps actually allows for understanding and appreciation to grow.

Infact - taking time for a 'peace-pipe' attitude it is only ever a completely stupid idea, if all concerned are deliberately trying to achieve a complete dead end, and usually dead ends, in this kind of instance anyways - are not very productive - they are kinda dead to be honest.
But hey, if that is what is desired/required - then go for it.

A
x

[Teratogen]

I definitely understand the other argument. Don't get me wrong. It is being said that calling someone a "retard" is unethical and wrong, which would suggest that calling someone a "retard" is name-calling for the sake of being derogatory and malicious. Am I wrong on that? I'm saying that the question of "ethics" is something that can be debated on another level entirely. But I don't believe that it really has anything to do with ethics. I think it's a front. It's the easiest argument one can think of to attach themselves to in order to stay away from such a controversial word.

I wholeheartedly agree that nothing in life is black or white. Everything rests in the shades of gray. Which adds to my theory on ethics that there is no right or wrong, everything has its shades of gray, everything has its exceptions. Most people don't or can't understand this. They refuse to because the shades of gray are areas that are less defined and things that are more unknown in life are feared. Who would willingly venture into unfamiliar territory when they feel so much is on line? Things like pride and beliefs. That's why I said I don't care about respect, I just want to be understood.

I also think that the word "respect" has been tainted. For a lot of people their ideas of respect have been warped. Perhaps it's nothing that is clearly defined anymore, but growing up I always heard that whenever I disagreed with anything said or done by my parents that I would hear, "Why do you disrespect me?" or "You need to show me more respect!" Frankly, it wasn't even an issue of respect, but in their minds it was. And often I wound find that yeah, it was true, I had no respect for them. But just because they are an "elder" or a parent, does that mean they automatically earn my respect? I've always disagreed with the "respect your elders" phrase.

Anyway, perhaps I have taken this too far off track now.

[Violet]

Read on and on and on and on as I may, I still cannot grasp whether various authors of the recent thread "Leonard and this forum: the truth revealed" are scholarly intellectuals of the highest order, tongues in or out of cheeks, with whom I would be at folly to dally with on the fast-paced subjects which they so passionately and wittingly debate within the thread itself, or whether there is some kind of Malishias intent underfoot among various forum members...being as I am a recent lover of the forum (who has not yet found the time to read every single post in days gone by, by each individual so wittingly named, to figure out the various personality dynamics and ongoing themes) and, although I am seemingly intelligent enough to pop out the odd poem, I am certainly not able to claim any great knowledgeability about the vast body of literature out there that no doubt many of you may have studied....

I would like to raise three minor points however:

1. I wholeheartedly agree with our dear Carmic friend who welcomes the diversity of post types and varied opinions, although I do like to see the odd poem or song posted here and there, I equally love to see the feedback and I enjoy the different way people approach posting, like throwing themes out there for others to drop lines into, and other such terrific ideas...

2. I don't really fancy Sylvia Plath as a poet in the way I do, say, someone like our lovely Leonardos (oh Leo, you're my man!), however I am slightly stumped as to how such a non-literary fumbler such as myself can write a Plathitude into a poem about getting dressed (has anyone else read the Bell Jar, which I AM a big fan of?) and get away un-noticed, amongst such literary geniui as those I am unable to follow intellectually in Marisha's thread... And indeed, does my Plathitude then become Plagiarism????

3. Teratogen: to use the word 'retard' to describe slowing the growth of a fire, for example, or in some verby-kinda way, seems fine to me and yes I agree with you words are just words...(until of course you begin to group them into various formations) however I believe it is universally accepted by most ethical individuals and groups that to ever describe a person as a 'retard' or a 'retarded person' is clinically known as labelling, and in this case it is a negative label. Just sayin'...

And now adieu, thread, as I am working on popping out another wee Poem and Music by the Forum Members

Peace and goodwill to all
Juan Juanders

Hi Juan.. Hi T.. T.. I think it might be time to retard the R word debate.. actually, I think I mean "retire".. but I couldn't help using the darn word one more time, just for good measure..

Juan.. I remember your saying that you're a woman.. maybe Jaunita would be the feminine version of.. your pseudonym (wasn't sure if that was the word I wanted to use, but I couldn't think of another one offhand).. anyway, it's not that I think you need to change your name, or anything.. I just think juanita is rather cute sounding..

.. in any event, I thought I'd respond, since I seem to be in some manner implicated in some of your numeros up there-os..

.. let's see.. hmm.. I'm not entirely sure what you're fishing for, exactly.. anyway, I consider the time I spend here rather enjoyable (for the most part).. in fact, it's my preferred manner of procrastination.. and as I do get over-involved when in the throes of some of the posts that I write, I find I have to be careful not to make my time here "the thing I do".. outweighing, in other words, the "real" work I'm supposed to be doing (always a problem for the pro procrastinator).. anyway, I sometimes have to take breaks from this place, given this tendency to overdo things, and so my attendance here is sometimes patchy.. (which may be why I missed your Plathy)..

.. let's see.. what else..

... okay, well, the way I see it, some people like to do cross word puzzles.. while I like to come here and play around with words, while hopefully managing not to step on any toes.. (at least not intentionally).. (I mean, an unintentional toe now and then can't be helped.. as T. is learning, seemingly to the point of exhaustion, I'd say).. (actually, was that just a toe?.. T.??).. Anyway.. that's pretty much it.. (oh, no, I didn't mean your toe, T.. well, unless you say that that's what "it" is.. in which case.. well, we'll talk.. later.. once all this R word business dies down.. but then, that actually would be your manner of toe, wouldn't it?.. I mean, figuratively speaking, that is).. (hmm.. now I've confused myself).. okay, what was I saying??.. oh, actually, I like your "Malishias intent," juanita.. (by the way).. and yes, I'd agree, Marisha can be Malishias, at times, so watch your step.. s/he don't care what toes s/he steps on.. (s/he be bad, and s/he knows it)..

.. by the by.. what poem of yours are we supposed to be scouring, Plathitudinally speaking?.. I can't say I've read her exhaustively, or anything, but there are a few poems of hers that were formative for me back in college.. one fairly dire one, as I recall.. unless all her poems are dire..

.. okay.. signing off, for now..

Without Malice (although I can't account for what Malishia's up to),
v i o l e t (flower)..

p.s.. T., I think you're quite funny.. especially when you're grumpy.. actually, I think this whole R word business will come to be like your version of The Princess and the Pea.. (how 'bout: The R Word and Mr. T??).. yes, you won't be able to sleep at night with that meddlesome R word planted beneath all those mattresses you'll now have to buy, just to try to smother the damn thing.. sorry, T.. didn't mean to disturb your sleep with this..

.. oh, and nifty topic, juanita.. I mean, it might be interesting to do a dissertation of sorts on the difference between popping out a poem, or just plain pooping one.. (I mean, that one little letter seems just so important somehow)..

[Juan Juanders]

Still Juandering xox

[Violet]

Hi Violet, I do like Juanita and it is lovely and feminine but my forum name is just a play on words, Juan Juanders (One Wonders).... formulated with my band at band practice one hoot of a night...we like to have a laff I used to like fishing more but since I haven't caught a king flathead for such a long time it's kinda boring these days...I'm just having a play, seeing if anyone picks up the Plathy. No other lines out at this stage....

Speaking of which, the hidden Plathitude is in my recent blurt, The Ice Queen, and you don't have to have read any Plath poetry to distinguish it...but I've already laid the clue for that earlier in this thread I think....and it distinctly relates to being a woman so perhaps I should have posted that one as Juanita I like Juan Juanders too much to give him up. I have funny ideas about gender. I don't enjoy yucky gender stuff (ie manhaters, womanhaters, competiton between the two, misunderstandings and so on) but I would rather like to be a eunoch so that particular fellas would stop telling me they don't know how to be my friend/band-mate or view me in a non-sexual way because of the simple fact that I have an 'inny', not an 'outy'!

I don't mean to call Marisha malicious, I don't know Marisha, I just liked the 'Malishious intent' play on words for that thread at large, t'wasn't actually directed towards her/him. She/he certainly livened things up and got people typing! This very thread would not be here without her/him

T- I respect myself. I perhaps didn't know how to some time ago, and may have lived as a victim-hero who hadn't worked it out yet. These days, I respect myself very much. I'm kinda Zen in a lotta ways, something I love about Leonard, his rawness all mixed up with his Zenness And anyone who I don't respect, or who doesn't respect me, well they just get cut right outa my life in an instant (as happened to a recent friend of mine, one very focussed on my 'inny' and not my 'inner'...see The Ice Queen). What more can I say

Still Juandering xox

.. oh, yes, juanita.. I did get the "One Wonders" part.. though I still like juanita.. or I could just call you "One," if you prefer.. then again, Mickey_One might not like that.. that's Lord of One, by the way.. as in Harry S.. (snake in the grass.. troll in the cyber-woods.. whatever).. oh, and as in Malishias.. (yes, Malishias.. don't be modest, it's your best material yet, juanita).. and as in.. oh, I don't know, I haven't been here long enough (just a thousand years or so, not even figuratively speaking -- this place is some sort of time-warp worm hole, in case you were "wondering".. oh, I do like "juandering" too..).. anyway, I honestly haven't been here long enough to know all of Mickey_One's devilish guises.. [in real life he's a Brit Barrister who wears wigs and robes, and nothing but red-lace bikini dainties underneath.. but then, all of them do that over there].. [those silly brits]..

.. alright.. I'll check out the Ice Queen stuff just as soon as I am able..

wandering wondering v i o l e t (flower)..

[Teratogen]

And anyone who I don't respect, or who doesn't respect me, well they just get cut right outa my life in an instant (as happened to a recent friend of mine, one very focussed on my 'inny' and not my 'inner'...see The Ice Queen). What more can I say

This is unfortunate. I feel this personally because of the girl (female friend) I have been very tenderly and slowly trying to get over for the past few months. I don't think it was a "respect" issue, but it's just simply the fact that one in your position is taking no prisoners, shooting first and asking questions later, won't even take the time to talk, goes straight for the jugular (or the testicles), just simply barefaced flat-out execution-style severance of ties. Okay, he wanted to get in your pants instead of get to know you better. Okay, I get that. Sure, probably not somebody you'd consider to get closer to. But why be so harsh? You even insisted on calling him a "friend of mine," yet I don't think such actions are friendly.

I got cut out of her life but it was because I wanted to get to know her "inner." She was only interested in showing off her "inny" to reel me in and then cut me off. Perhaps maybe I saw too much "inner" and she became frightened.

And then there's the fact that you kind of shrug it off with a smile. It's almost as if you two are so much alike... convincing yourself you're upholding some kind of power previously unattainable in some past relationship that your way of justifying it is to lift them up in grace then put them in a place where they must fall, if I may quote Leonard.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to dissect your mind or tell you who you are because I really have no idea, I'm just seeing so many similarities just in this one quote of yours that it's frightening.

[Juan Juanders]

[Teratogen]

Okay, well, perhaps a full-on explanation wasn't necessary, but I see a stark contrast from this story to your little comment above. That little comment above is what reminded me of her, to a T. This story not so much. But I guess I ask how someone could be like that and I think perhaps you were making light of it on this board to spare everybody the gory details. I had mistaken your lightly brush-off comment as something cruel and vindictive. But perhaps it's just one of the many thoughts I've had about the way she treated me that got me a bit upset about it. For that I apologize.

And I'm sorry things didn't work out with you and your friend. But perhaps I am also misreading... you are married with (a) kid(s), but this "friendship" was something else? Or your friend was pretending it was something else? I only ask not to pry but because if it's true I find it strange yet bold that you'd share such... well, infidelities.

[Juan Juanders]

It is (and will forever be............... a piece called "Frank & Earnest"... all I have so far is the title...