"Periodically, I've gotten into the discussion that is playing itself out here in very hurtful ways. Through the years, and I'll be darned if it's not almost seven
, I've offered my own perspective. I've tried to locate where I really expounded on it in a posting, maybe even initiated a thread devoted to it... but, so far, I found it. It seems to be an ongoing, relentless tension, though... at times it gets more raw than others, but right now, it's in a period of being more raw again. Some vehemently disagree with my perspective, but given the number of departers and the pretty limited, expressed agreement with those who obviously disagree, I feel there are a number of people out there reading who somehow agree with what I've said and am still saying:These are some former comments I've made:
P.S. I never went.I agree with the premise and details of this new site [Egoless Poetry site]. It is for those whose aspirations are to become poets, to write serious poetry, etc. ~ where that is their reason for writing. The notable difference that I see between there and here is that here, people have come for other reasons, and whilst here, choose to share a bit of themselves through their writing. That is a wholly-poetry-based site. This is not. I may even go there and attempt to learn how to write poetry ~ give me the Egoless Lite, please.
In response to this, I wrote the two below:
Is it fair to criticize poems?
by Sandra on Wed Jul 10, 2002 11:52 pm
If we like some poem we can say it.......if we don´t we better keep silence...
Hi Sandra,
I understand exactly what you are saying with this. One of the things that was part of the general "culture" that I grew up in was the saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." Now, you can look at this as being gracious, or being phoney. Both perspectives have merit. There are times when you really need to just go ahead and say un-nice things. Hopefully, those times aren't often. However, when it comes to a person's poetry, I feel that's a very personal part of themselves/their being that they have accessed and drawn from to get those particular words onto paper. Then to place those words on a public forum is a huge act of vulnerability. When someone has chosen to make themselves vulnerable, I have no desire to stomp on them or their feelings.
I feel that respect for them is as important as my opinion might be to them. Ultimately, they are the one who wrote the poem, and for them, their intended feelings may still be coming through loud and clear, whether I get it or not, and whether they care whether I get it or not. I guess the thing to do would be for people to indicate whether they're interested in feedback or critiqueing. I would be if I were placing mine [my non-existent cache, that is] here. However, I'm not going to presume that with others....or at least I hope I'm not. I prefer to focus on what I feel are the strengths therein. Unless I'm asked to Edit something....and then the person will [I hope!] set their ego and feelings aside.
Lizzytysh
It's been awhile since Sandra has commented or posted any of her lovely poetry.Excellent distinctions, Sandra. To criticize and critique are quite different, as well. I agree with you. No one [or remarkably few] begins as an excellent [or even good] poet. It takes practice like everything else. The scorn can kill the spirit. As I say this, I'm thinking of the resiliency of Ev's in the face of some of the unfair, mean-spirited things that have been said to him.....and can only question the quality of the poetry [if any] that was being written by the one[s] commenting when they were 16. And to that I say, keep on writing, Ev!
~Lizzytysh
This is what Sally said, though she's no longer here:
I've shared more comprehensively-expressed views of mine on this topic, but I can't find them, right now for sure.Sally on Fri Jul 12, 2002 2:11 am
I was addressing you, Lizzytsh,. And sometimes it can be interesting to catch a personal glimpse in a reply. There can be poetry in prose too! And Jarkko said, "this section is for you!" All of us, not just good poets, or bad peots, but for everyone.
Leonard's abilities as a writer get held up here as a rationale for why some people simply shouldn't post their writing, if it doesn't meet some arbitrary measure [determined by the harsh critics here]. They feel their position is justified because this is, after all, a Leonard Cohen Forum. They appear to remain blind to the fact that Leonard Cohen is far more than a writer. He's an immensely kind man. He demonstrates his tolerance and kindness when many others would have slam-dunked and walked away, if their attempts to intimidate and eliminate through ridicule had not been successful in removing the person from their sphere.
As 'they' say, the accomplishments of people are great, but do we remember who the Olympic Gold winners were from last year or the year before? Or the Heisman Trophy winners? Or the Best Movie/Actor/Actress from two years ago? Or... or... or... ??? The people who touch our lives and are remembered are the teacher who took the time in the 7th grade, who made you know that you really could do it. The people who touched your life in a very real and tangible way... those are the ones we personally remember.
Until this section is run by published poetry critics and published, acclaimed writers, the traits that make Leonard who he is as a person ought to carry more weight here. The critiques are useful, yes... but, as I've also said before, many who have contributed here in the past [sadly, not so much anymore] have English ONLY as their second or third language. There is so much to be gleaned from what they have chosen to share here. Yet, many of them have been slam-dunked, too... and left.
No one knows who is on the other side of these keyboard strokes; what their personal struggles may be; what they are able to gain by participating on a Forum like this; or what the negative impact can be in their lives, when spoken to in a dismissive, ridiculing fashion. Words have power. Good and bad. We see and hear and feel it in Leonard's work.
Yet, for all of his excellence in conveying exactly what he wants in a universal, timeless fashion, what Leonard does is so much more and so much greater. What seems to be overlooked in situations like we are [again] witnessing here, is that Leonard doesn't write about how great a person's writing ability is; or how great their accomplishments. His excellence in writing is used to the higher purpose of connecting us as people, as human beings, regardless of the differences in our races, ethnicities, or cultures. He binds people together, rather than drives them apart. He doesn't try to establish barriers or levels of importance, through false hierarchies. G~d is the One he sets apart. The rest of us are struggling, each in our own ways... and his phenomenal body of work attests to his recognition of our personal frailties and our personal pain... and he brings comfort to us through his recognition. How can some miss the real importance of Leonard's work and messages. His writing abilities are the precision tools he has constructed for himself. His messages are the finished product and the real work, the real genius, the truth.
It's irritating, yes... to watch the cruelty and snideness here... but more than irritating, it's painful. Why? To what purpose do they feel accomplished? There's a jab of sharp sadness somewhere in my solar plexus when I read these off-handed, throwaway, nasty comments, as though the ones making them really are somehow superior people. They're not, and they violate a basic level of decency, when they make them.
These are some comments made by tom.d.stiller to Hillary [Medusafern, in case anyone cares to Search her name and read her poetry], in response to hers to the quoted portion to me. Hillary lives in a ghetto somewhere, and is someone to whom I expressed my desire that she continue to post. Tom doesn't seem to come here, anymore, either:
If I find some of the more precise comments I've made [several years back] on this topic, I'll bring them here. For now, I just had to say something. Everyone and every one here matters.tom.d.stiller on Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:53 am
Of course you matter. Not only in the general clichè'd sense in which everyone matters (you know, the "any man's death diminishes me" sense), but in your own unalienable, infrangible way you matter.Thank you for saying I matter, Elizabeth. If I weren't being pestered by my radiant sage child at the moment I'm sure I'd shed a tear. To matter in this life that asks so much...it would make the pain far more bearable...
Your words - the only token given to know you - matter. These rich and strong words, poignant yet clear. These powerful and evocative words, that make me feel the pain, and that make me feel the pain's far more bearable. They pick up a pain, long gone yet still remaining strong, and lift the hurt and the scars - the wounds never healed, they only stopped bleeding - and the ghastly suffering metamorphoses to poetry, transferring all the glorious misery, all the beautiful losses, all the homely stabs and blows and humiliation into a great lesson in strength.
Your words matter. And they'd deserve much more than the weak praise I, still recovering from their overwhelming force, can word right now.
Your story matters. Your stories matter. Sometimes the tortures of our lives become our best friends. After all they're all that's left us. They are such stuff as we are made of.
The matter you're made of must be tougher than steel and softer than a breeze. (Too trite an expression, but it seems to the point. And as maturity is doing the right thing even though your parents told you so, honesty needs using exact words even though every mouth spat them out before.)
Dear Hillary,
welcome to this forum of more or less beautiful more or less losers. We benefit from your entering this site. May you benefit from our rambling.
Tom
~ Lizzy
[Edited to add Hillary's screen name above... Medusafern.]
?