Confessions

[lizzytysh]

Hi Manna ~~

Sometimes, you just max out and can't keep saying, "Well, that's our Mikey... if you knew him... " ~ in fact, I used to do that very thing, what you're doing... excusing the arrows for the benefit of the balm in the point, serving to heal the ailing poem. When the suggestions are attacking or condescending to the person who wrote the poem, then I just don't feel, "Well, that's our Mikey... if you knew him... " anymore.

Based on my contacts in various forms with attorneys, and Michael might agree with this, they're well able to stand up for themselves... particularly after having slaughtered someone else. I don't know what the nature of law school is in the U.K., but having lived with an attorney here and had a variety of law students as friends at one time, I was privy to what they thought of how it is in the U.S.

Their comments were that even though it was essential that they learn how to think on their feet, they didn't really appreciate walking into class and having the professor humiliate them publicly with taunts and insults, all in the interest of their learning how to deal emotionally with these eventualities in the courtroom and being able to respond appropriately, strongly, and keep their head about them. As they talked about people they had known who were really nice people before they started law school, and as they progressed in school, they turned into a bitch or a bastard; and they couldn't understand it, until they went themselves. These aren't my words, Manna, but these were their words and comments in more than one conversation regarding the mental/emotional/psycho-social dynamics of law school. They said it makes you 'hard' because you have to be 'hard' to survive. There's competition amongst the students... and then there's the professor, as well... and this is what prepares you for the courtroom arena... where the name of the game is to intimidate and throw your opponent off course, at the same time that you make your presentation memorable to the judge and/or jury, amongst other things, with your cleverness.

When I lived with an attorney, I remember his recalling his days in court and feeling disgusted by some of the 'clever' and memorable tactics he used to win his cases. I didn't feel he was a bastard, though I could see that he had become separated from another part of himself, a more humane one... and was living the part that said, "Win! Whatever it takes... at any cost... WIN!" I recall the case of a rape victim, where he knew his client was guilty. He felt justified in the tactic he took, however demeaning it was to the victim. He was a master of quips and one liners and was loved socially. I lost respect for him as a person as I watched that ruthless part continue on without abatement. I learned this past summer that he finally succumbed to alcoholism. His final drink was likely taken in the small, elite club where attorneys gathered and where I met him.

Michael isn't just an accomplished attorney. He's a barrister... a higher position in the field of law. I'm not saying he's a bastard, which is why I made the point of having met him and written with him, and have seen another side. I know that the demeaning tactics here aren't necessary and that he's fully capable of making his points regarding the poetry [if that really is the object] in other ways. When Madonna made the comment, "You think what you are doing here is different to what you do at work?," I thought "Spot on." If anyone is capable of being insulting and diminishing, it's Judith Fitzgerald. She has a PhD, has taught at universities, has counted many an accomplished writer, poet, and critic amongst her personal and professional friends. She critiques for a living... and hers are known for not following the party line, whatever it may be, just because it's that. When she participated here, she brought her expertise and encouragement to people's submissions here and spoke to them in a way that kept their dignity intact. I recall once when I didn't agree with the changes she'd made to a poem and, in my mind, it made it all but intelligible with her suggestions. The writer, as with other suggestions she'd made, never took any of them, as I recall. That was a published writer and some of them were good ones.

There seems to be a self-preservation thread of 'sticking to your guns' with something people submit here... perhaps, that's because this isn't a poetry board, where one submits with the sole purpose of being critiqued. To share something with a sharing intent, and return to find what you've shared being 'worked on' and 'worked over' isn't always going to be welcome. In fact, it seems that for the most part, it hasn't been... here.

I guess there may be an element of, "It's my baby... and, yes, it's not perfect," but when I want it operated on, I'll find my own surgeon. Call it ego or call it interfering. I'm still struggling to come up with the perfect analogy and I'm guessing there really isn't one. However, if a friend dresses up to go out for the night and comes out, do you begin deconstructing her, march her right back into the bathroom, scrub her face clean of make-up and apply it yourself to your own liking... then take her to her closet and rifle through it till you find an outfit you like better... and then say, "Okay, now you're ready." Or, do you accept her on her own merits, for her own tastes, and go on." I'm not using these attempted analogies to reenforce any ideas of roses and chocolates. I feel that the sites where poetry critiqueing is THE PURPOSE, fine... you're in the courtroom-of-poets context. Go for it. It's like Leonard was in Montreal with his small group of poet/writer friends, where even there, lifelong alienation between two of its members, resulted.

Still, even if one comes willing to be critiqued, in my opinion, there's no reason whatsoever to do so in less-than-a-respectful manner to the writer. At least allow them to remain open. Most people shut down when they feel under attack or that someone's trying to humiliate them. For example, in the way of agreements, if you and Michael want to attack each other's poetry, fine. You called it admirable or valuable or something like that, that he was here on what you consider a poetry board, willing to critique without submitting his own work. In the context of what goes on here, I consider it questionable.

I don't feel I'm asking Michael to be something other than what he is... knowing that he's not a one-trick-pony, I'm asking that he access another part of himself and bring it here. Perhaps, with his old buddies, he could pull out the courtroom self... and apply the 'astute, but kinder, gentler' Michael to the newcomers, at least until they get to know him better and have been here long enough to be willing to stick around for the show descends upon one of their poems.


~ Lizzy

[lizzytysh]

Greg said:

Michael's interest in critiquing poetry does not need explaining.
It's just a way he has of getting outside himself.
("Ecstasy" - "ex-stasis" - outside-standing").

My understanding is that there's an excellent site for this cross-word exercise... one that Michael himself recommended. Egoless Poetry Site [or some such title]. Where people gather without name or identity, to place their poems on the pyre... braced for feelings to be hurt. I've not gotten the sense that that's been the reason most share their poetry here.

It's nice that we serve as a workout room for Michael... perhaps, if my friend had gone into critiqueing poetry on the side, he'd still be alive. However, the self-righteousness is a stand-in for those who haven't spoken for themselves in this context, but left rather than having the thoughts, feelings, and memories they've put onto paper or the screen subjected to this kind of treatment. Especially crucial in the context of where we're at, I feel, is that not everyone here natively speaks English!


~ Lizzy

[~greg]

Why do people post poems here?

[lizzytysh]

Another point that I feel is salient in this discussion is that it's NOT the critiqueing that concerns me, but the agreement to it and the manner in which it's done. If someone agrees that this is a process they're interested in engaging in, my position is to critique for pages on any given poem.

Why it's considered somehow gauche or politically incorrect that it be done with respect, however, is beyond me... and, at the very least, on the poems where the critiqueing has happened in spontaneous-combustion style. Perhaps, you can answer that at the same time that you tell me why people post poems here. Through my observation, it's been because they wanted to share them.

Surely, they're aware [and if they're not, can be made aware of such ~ as a public service announcement or a friendly gesture] that there are sites on the Internet devoted to poetry critiqueing, including ruthlessly so... to which the only acceptable response there is [interesting that what's considered "the only acceptable response" is... dictated ] simply "Thank you."

I would apologize for what you see as self-righteous demands, but I feel they are reasonable requests and they, as mine, are known by way of my expressing them. Posters here are from different countries, and at differing ages, education, and levels of experience. Public humiliation and denigration have never been my cup of tea, either as the recipient or the observer. I hasten to add that I have not been perfect in this regard with my own actions; but it isn't something that I strive for in myself, either... it doesn't mean I need to abandon the ship of my ideals, and it doesn't preclude me from speaking out about it. If you want to call me a soppy, self-righteous wench, that's your choice.


~ Lizzy

[~greg]

Lyzzy, I don't follow much of what you're saying,
and I don't even know if you're talking to me.
("You talking to me? I don't see anyone else here." - Taxi driver)


But you do ask back what I asked you,
" why do people post poems here?"

It wasn't a rhetorical or trick question when I asked it.
I do not know the answer. I am trying to get some idea about it.
And you already have ideas about it, so I implicitly asked you.

You say that people post poems, because they want to share them.
Which is obviously a part of it.

But if you mean that they just want to share them, and nothing else,
then that is manifestly untrue.

Jill, for example, in this very thread, has already
edited her poem 34 times in total so far.
So she is obviously getting more out of this
than just using it as a display board to show off.

But why here?
Why do people post poems here?

This is a Leonard Cohen forum.
There are plenty of other places around the net to post poems,
-with and without feed back.

Shouldn't this have something to do with Leonard Cohen?
Like all the things he has said about writing?

Like the need to remove the ego from the product?

[lizzytysh]

Yes, Greg... I was speaking to you. I allow for some people wanting their poems critiqued, to whatever degree. Those people make it known.

Since Leonard is not a one-trick pony, either, there are also other things related to Leonard that would be part of their wanting to share their poems here... that they might share them and/or receive constructive feedback in an atmosphere of kindness, akin to that of Leonard's.

There is also the possibility that someone wants to share an experience they've had that other, somewhat like-minded, people might be able to relate to and appreciate. Period. Sharing for the sake of sharing. A means of connecting in this ever-increasing alienated world we live in... and I've seen this kind of thing result in people expressing how they can really relate or even that they're glad to see they're not alone. This awareness happened to be delivered in a vehicle known as a poem. Not everyone looks to be published. This level of exchange often doesn't get a chance to happen when they're repelled at the door with a Poetry Propriety Handbook.

It's not that everything has to be about "ego" or "lack of ego" by your definitions ~ some are also merely getting their toes wet in the ocean of poetry writing. When sharks come and bloody their toes, they may leave the water, never to return. In my way of thinking, there is the "ego" that's invested in the poem [subject to change, if "ego" is dispensed with for the sake of the poem's improvement]; and then there's the personhood of the person behind the poem. I don't feel I need to repeat what I see as the difference between them.

Again, you seem to equate "critiqueing" with "attacking" ~ yes, if critiques are the reason you're here, then be willing to remove the "ego" from your writing... as in being willing to have your writing considered from other points of view, with perhaps suggestions for revision. That is removing the "ego" ~ the "ego" that would 'say' that your way of expression in your poem is the ONLY way of expression possible for it.

That still does not mean that you should have to expect or be willing to be bullied and feel personally ridiculed in the process. That has to do with common respect for other people vs. "ego" with regard to your poem. Changes are fine... if you come here looking for suggestions. Not everyone does. I'm not talking about my guessing as to why people submit their poems here, but rather my observations of their comments, as well as their reactions to people's 'critiques' up to and including their disappearance and not submitting any more of them.


~ Lizzy

[Alan Alda]

manna wrote:

I stuck up for M_1 b/c no one else was.

This is one of the saddest and most cowardly things I've read in quite a while.

Bandwagons r us.
I would have thought the honorable thing would to be honest and do it as his friend.

Personally (and as a friend of Mikee's) I don't get the lynch-mob mentality happening here. But I do recognize the ring-leader and have been on the sharp end of her scythe (as have so many others who now are only ghosts). Just remember, eventually she'll come around for you..........

I do admire anyone who can get away with the amount of time she spends writing volumes on the board while she is supposed to be working. Honesty and Integrity. that must be the Poetry Police motto...

ugh,
L

[Manna]

Just because you have gone through something doesn't mean you can rescue me from having to go through it too. This is one of the parental conundra, and you aren't even my parent. I can say, "That's our Mickey," as many times as I want, in fact I think I'll make it my signature, my personal refrain, just so I can experience being mischievous.

I know he can stick up for himself, I wanted to see if I could do it.

--~--

I don't know why people post their poems here, including myself. What happens after posting is anyone's guess. Some get no response at all, some get 83 pages of tangential discussion. Some take a whipping, some get kisses. Sometimes this is a showcase special, sometimes it's a workshop, sometimes it's a coliseum with blood red cursive all over the floor. It's cool that there are no rules. People don't need to be governed.

Lizzy, I was also tempted to tell you not to let Michael or anyone else tell you not to use emoticons. I wouldn't want him to change you any more than I want you to change him. If either of you changes, it will be your own doing.

I have a question too, more out of curiosity for how you think than trying to make any point. Let's say m_1 crits PersonX's poem in such a way that X gets mad. X then ...
1. leaves the forum and never returns
2. calls M a jerk
3. says, "Well, my wife liked it and that's all that matters to me, so bugger off."
4. says something else
5. gets over it and says, "Hey, nice crit. I've got some others, would you mind having a look?"
6. says, "No, it wasn't a stupid line, you just didn't get that it was a reference to the fact that every body of water has a tide, even a glass of water, and even you. And that's why it works, being a moon-sea-love poem."
7. All of the above
8. None of the above
9. Some of the above

ok - here's my question - Do you think any one of these things that X could do is M's responsibility?

[Manna]

you give one reason, and they think it's the only one.

[Manna]

manna wrote:

I stuck up for M_1 b/c no one else was.

This is one of the saddest and most cowardly things I've read in quite a while.

Bandwagons r us.
I would have thought the honorable thing would to be honest and do it as his friend.

Personally (and as a friend of Mikee's) I don't get the lynch-mob mentality happening here. But I do recognize the ring-leader and have been on the sharp end of her scythe (as have so many others who now are only ghosts). Just remember, eventually she'll come around for you..........

I do admire anyone who can get away with the amount of time she spends writing volumes on the board while she is supposed to be working. Honesty and Integrity. that must be the Poetry Police motto...

ugh,
L

And this is the most judgmental thing I have read here in a long time.

[Alan Alda]

manna wrote:

And this is the most judgmental thing I have read here in a long time.

It's an opinion. Have they been banned?

[Manna]

not if they're nice.
Oh, fudgesickles. That means mine are banned too.

[lizzytysh]

It's an opinion.

Try presenting them as such; instead of poured-and-solidified-in-cement givens... with "Warning" stickers attached.

Personally (and as a friend of Mikee's) I don't get the lynch-mob mentality happening here. But I do recognize the ring-leader and have been on the sharp end of her scythe (as have so many others who now are only ghosts). Just remember, eventually she'll come around for you..........

I could easily take issue with examples included with every element in this paragraph. I won't and anyone who's been here awhile knows why. Right, wrong, or otherwise, it's the law of diminishing returns and only [typically] creates a heartsick feeling in the reader [which may already be there, due to me, you, mickey, Manna, RP, Jimmy, or whomever]. Anyone who's been here awhile can make up their own minds about what you've said, including observations of your own behaviour. Your villification efforts aren't getting any of my energy this time around... well, other than to say that your last sentence above reads like some trailer in a Grade B movie or a "Communist under every rock" McCarthyism.


~ Lizzy

[mickey_one]

Hello Everybody, I haven't got time to read any of today's posts but I just know that you have all celebrated my birthday appropriately.

cakes, streamers, hoorays and boos to be distributed equitably (or arbitrarily if you are short of time)

mickey way more than 1

[lizzytysh]

Happy Birthday, again, mickey_three. Is two more than one considered way?

Hi Laurie ~

After some fresh air, getting some more stuff done, and conversing with a friend, I've thought about it all some more. This isn't the first time I've thought it, just the first time I've said it. I would like nothing more than to return to day one, square one, with you. Not that there's a friendship awaiting there, but because if both of us meet in that space... together in the open field, not the mine field... we might find some neutrality and tolerance with each other. It could mean a disappearance of knots in our stomach when we see each other's name... or read the implications in each other's postings. It could mean ceasing to blame each other for the invention and release [dropping] of the Atom Bomb. I don't see how any of this could possibly be bad for the Forum or for us. If nations can do it regarding real wars and such, why can't two headstrong women on a Forum accomplish at least as much as I'm proposing.

The title and content of Jill's poem has served, overall, in being very evocative in this thread, I believe. Our burying the hatchets and starting fresh sounds like a good plan to me.

I'm willing to apologize to you for every hurtful thing I've said. I would hope that you would be willing to do the same. If doing any of this publicly is too weird, I am certainly open to PMs. The only 'conditional' aspect to it all would be our goodwilled effort toward each other, from here on out. After awhile, it can cease to feel like an effort.

I'm open if you are. Well, I'm open, even if you're not.


Sincerely,
Lizzy

I've considered the possible confusion with my last sentence [above]. By that, I mean that I would prefer that you join with me in this. If you're not open to it, then you're not. Since forgiveness is a decision, rather than a feeling [wonderful when they align, but when they don't, it defaults to being a decision], I still forgive you for all the hurtful things you've said to me. I apologize for the hurtful things I've said to you, and hope that you forgive me, too. It's what feels right to me to do. Here's hoping we can move forward.