I prefer to replace the word 'God' with 'Life' in what you say.Diane- God is good Lift your spirit up to the everlasting stream of God, the stream of energy, place yourself there! You will see, everything will happen, just as you dreamed it would! God is good, no argument there, God is awesome!
My dear, all quotes are, of necessity, 'out of context'.bee wrote:Fljots- there is an answer for Epicures-which of course, he knew quite well,Your quotation comes from text, taken out of the context, that is a little dirty secret of all quotations. The answer is-the free will. Human being has a free will and a free choice. God does not manipulate a puppet. Human being is created with a dignity of free will. That is all there is to it.
It's the nature of the beast. 
I don't disagree with that, Diane. I do think humans have 'spiritual' leanings, since that is the word you use. I think, personally, that it is more 'a sense of wonder' at the immensity of things, contrasted with our littleness.Diane wrote:Fljots, I think that all religions began with the impulse for spirituality, and some (most ?) then later got hijacked for political ends, and to justify war, bigotry and all other sorts of horrors. But I don't think that that is, to be fair, the 'fault' of religion, but of human nature. Religion is a very good place to hang your predjuces, because nobody can argue with 'the word of God'. But I also know that the majority of religious people do not use their religion as a negative force, but as a highly positive one, and indeed gain a lot from it, so, I don't feel fiercely anti-religious. I am just personally not swayed to believe in God as a supernatural entity, and find it puzzling that so many people do.
Arguing about the existence of God is something that will run and run and run...
Diane
Fljots wrote“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
Why isn't it a sensible answer? Because you did not understand the above questions at the first place?But 'free will' is NOT a sensible answer, imo, to the quote.
Yes, of course humans have free will - in a limited sense. We are not as free as we think we are. Society puts constraints on our freedom (good thing, too, LOL!)
Fljots! Why did you repeat again my thought about the quotes, text and context, as if it was yours?My dear, all quotes are, of necessity, 'out of context'. It's the nature of the beast.
Dear Diane, you can replace the words, but then, they would have a different meaning. Many times, if you misplace the words, they would become meaningless, that sentence and thought which I expressed would loose any sense. The word God has one meaning, Life has an other.I prefer to replace the word 'God' with 'Life' in what you say.
Where there is fear there is a need to ‘over-control’ and that works quite well with religion.It is part of human nature that we need a certain amount of unconditional love from others (our parents, in an ideal world) in order to become properly emotionally/spiritually whole and extend this love to others. This often does not happen, so the world is full of people with unfelt (unconscious) unmet needs. This void of pain is the place where hatred, greed, addiction and depression, for example, all grow. We are all vulnerable (weak) on the inside, and people who have to deny this vulnerability, this essential humanity within, because it has never been validated by anyone else, unconsciously feel driven to protect themselves in these destructive ways. On a society level it manifests as violence, war, and institutionalised greed.
I agree with you! I am optimistic and believe love wins because it is natural for us to be loving and empathic, but this can only happen if we are given that Love by others first.I find it difficult to put into words but if I say Love wins would you be content? I know evil has stained history, I've seen it in the Australian Aboriginal community. It has always been there and today is no exception. But Love wins. You have to have this as your cornerstone for living else you'd go mad. You have to believe this to contribute. The evil I am talking of is not of any Satan out of a Bible, it is of Man's inhumanity to Man. And this is very often due to the way one is brought up in childhood. Sometimes this can be a nightmare - wounded people commonly come out of it. Love too is given in childhood - this is a godsend.
I really like that!Now; G-d, why have Him/Her in the picture at all? It is a connection both with the self and the Universe. Love is many things; a night time dip in the sea, feeding a child, a football match. Love is G-d. But G-d is all. A god with no name, nor face. Yet it is like the wind; you don't see it but you feel it in your hair. It is the agony and ecstasy of Life, it is this post. I can hear it in the pigeon cooing outside my window. Now she's stopped. And it is the silence too.
Boss - apart from 'god' in your comments, I agree with all the above remarks. What you wrote is deeply true for me, too. But it is true for me without a 'god' in the picture.Boss wrote:Dear Fljots and Diane,
At the risk of repeating myself, I shall plough on.
I agree with you that religion was cruder all those centuries ago. I also acknowledge that some religions even now treat their adherents harshly. But I feel you are missing something elementary and I'm not trying to preach. These are just my thoughts.
I find it difficult to put into words but if I say Love wins would you be content? I know evil has stained history, I've seen it in the Australian Aboriginal community. It has always been there and today is no exception. But Love wins. You have to have this as your cornerstone for living else you'd go mad. You have to believe this to contribute. The evil I am talking of is not of any Satan out of a Bible, it is of Man's inhumanity to Man. And this is very often due to the way one is brought up in childhood. Sometimes this can be a nightmare - wounded people commonly come out of it. Love too is given in childhood - this is a godsend.
Now; G-d, why have Him/Her in the picture at all? It is a connection both with the self and the Universe. Love is many things; a night time dip in the sea, feeding a child, a football match. Love is G-d. But G-d is all. A god with no name, nor face. Yet it is like the wind; you don't see it but you feel it in your hair. It is the agony and ecstasy of Life, it is this post. I can hear it in the pigeon cooing outside my window. Now she's stopped. And it is the silence too. When I think of it deeply, I realise that Gandhi, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and so many others passed all believed in something more. So does Bob Dylan. And that kind of sums it up. I don't have to prove myself anymore. My words are inadequate, but that's okay. G-d is.
Boss
.
What a confrontational person you are!bee wrote:Fljots wrote“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”Why isn't it a sensible answer? Because you did not understand the above questions at the first place?But 'free will' is NOT a sensible answer, imo, to the quote.
Never mind - I am, too! Why shouldn't I laugh? Am I not allowed to have a mind of my own, and make my own conclusions about things? Why should I depend on the writings of others - however eminent - to form my opinions?bee wrote:Yes, of course humans have free will - in a limited sense. We are not as free as we think we are. Society puts constraints on our freedom (good thing, too, LOL!)
Fljots- there is a concept, principal-philosophical and theological-free will. Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas,
Socrates, Thomas Moor, Erasmus and many more have written about it. It has nothing to do with your common, vulgar thinking about freedom and such things, which you are laughing out loud at-with society and restraints etc.
) Really? Well, maybe you have to be a believer to believe that only believers can distinguish between good and evil. Such vanity! Such prejudice!bee wrote:This concept defines the relationship between human and God thus accordingly, all the following of that concept, ability to differ good and evil, to make a choice etc.
Because what I wrote was my own thought. Are you the only person capable of thinking, my dear? You must be very young! Let me guess - a teenage girl?bee wrote:Fljots! Why did you repeat again my thought about the quotes, text and context, as if it was yours?My dear, all quotes are, of necessity, 'out of context'. It's the nature of the beast.
Yes, I agree. I accepted myself quite a long while ago - soon after I abandoned religion, in fact. It was quite a traumatic process in itself, because it meant being ME rather than who I was expected/brought up to be, and accepting who I really was, faults and all, and not holding it against myself, LOL! Though maybe this isn't what you mean?Diane wrote: I personally do not think you can become, I won’t even use the word, ‘spiritually’ – I don’t think you can become emotionally whole without deep self acceptance including dealing with past traumas and also having a witness to your true emotional being with all its pain and joy.
I believe in G~d.Now; G-d, why have Him/Her in the picture at all? It is a connection both with the self and the Universe. Love is many things; a night time dip in the sea, feeding a child, a football match. Love is G-d. But G-d is all. A god with no name, nor face. Yet it is like the wind; you don't see it but you feel it in your hair. It is the agony and ecstasy of Life, it is this post. I can hear it in the pigeon cooing outside my window. Now she's stopped. And it is the silence too. When I think of it deeply, I realise that Gandhi, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and so many others passed all believed in something more. So does Bob Dylan. And that kind of sums it up. I don't have to prove myself anymore. My words are inadequate, but that's okay. G-d is.
Dear Diane-what does it mean-emotionally whole? Emotions and feelings also have two different meanings, there is a very problem, that so often people cant make a difference in that. People are so overwhelmed with all kinds of emotions, which comes from plenty uncontrolled bad thoughts-fear, suspicion, jealousy. They mistake it for feelings. Feelings could be very deep down, like in an egg yolk, deep in a middle, never even being examined, or there could be none. That also is yet far removed from spirituality, because spiritual awakening has not yet touched it.I personally do not think you can become, I won’t even use the word, ‘spiritually’ – I don’t think you can become emotionally whole without deep self acceptance including dealing with past traumas and also having a witness to your true emotional being with all its pain and joy.
Bee, sorry I ‘corrupted’ the meaning of your words for you. I do have my own spiritual sense, but I guess it doesn’t tally with yours. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Fljots- why are you assuming, that the great philosophers, thinkers and geniuses of mind would have such prejudice and vanity? Because they did not. Just turn the mirror to yourself. Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Socrates, Thomas Moor, Erasmus said nothing about believers or non believers-they were examining human nature and God.Really? Well, maybe you have to be a believer to believe that only believers can distinguish between good and evil. Such vanity! Such prejudice!
Why shouldn't I laugh? Am I not allowed to have a mind of my own, and make my own conclusions about things? Why should I depend on the writings of others -- however eminent -- to form my opinions?
Perhaps, because they are so much higher and deeper than yours and mine?
No, Fljots, I don't think that-for the very reason I mentioned above, there are very wise people to learn from, not to be laughed at. But of course, a wise one can always learn also from a fool.Because what I wrote was my own thought. Are you the only person capable of thinking, my dear? You must be very young! Let me guess -- a teenage girl?
