Linda -
But one might simply learn the wrong lesson from experience, and one might petrify his soul on that one... LC never did... he was always "open"
You're right - wisdom doesn't correlate with age. The above might be part of an explanation...
Tom
Birth Signs
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tom.d.stiller
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Some writers write their best and most recognisable works at the start of their career (William Golding), some reach their peek as old men (Philip Roth), some write virtually the same no matter of age (Isaac Bashevis Singer), and some (Leonard Cohen) write different, but on the same level...
Wouldn't you agree that's the case with Leonard?
Some of us prefer his earlier works, some prefer later. It's hard to tell which ones are right.
As for me; he's great no matter what.
T.S.Eliot wrote in an essay of his that in order to stay alive in poetry after her/his teens a poet must change. He further emphasizes the ways this change must go, but it isn't very important for this subject, and I don't fully agree with him on that. What's important is that most poets (Rimbaud stopped writing at a VERY early age - was it when he was 18?) are romantic (not in a candles/violins way, but in a way a revolutionist is romantic) when they are young, and their poetry is 'purer' poetry. It must have something to do with rebellion against father... You know: young poets are rebellious, they use strong language, try to change the world their fathers left them, etc.
Early Leonard's poetry is better example of this than his music. He already left his home, lived through more than most of us ever will, before he started singing, but some of that spirit stayed in his songs for ever.
Kush quoted Bob Dylan (he has a strange ability to find a perfect Bob Dylan quote for everything): Oh I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now......, which is funny, because Dylan was still quite young when he wrote that. I think maybe even younger than Leonard was when he started singing. Therefore; even early songs by Leonard are reflections of a fully developed and mature poet.
One more thought: aren't poets mostly younger than novelists? Ivo Andric (Bosnian Nobel Prize winner) wrote (bad) poetry when he was young, and later he wrote (great) novels. Perhaps there's more prose in Leonard's poetry now.
More direct and less metaphoric?
Wouldn't you agree that's the case with Leonard?
Some of us prefer his earlier works, some prefer later. It's hard to tell which ones are right.
As for me; he's great no matter what.
T.S.Eliot wrote in an essay of his that in order to stay alive in poetry after her/his teens a poet must change. He further emphasizes the ways this change must go, but it isn't very important for this subject, and I don't fully agree with him on that. What's important is that most poets (Rimbaud stopped writing at a VERY early age - was it when he was 18?) are romantic (not in a candles/violins way, but in a way a revolutionist is romantic) when they are young, and their poetry is 'purer' poetry. It must have something to do with rebellion against father... You know: young poets are rebellious, they use strong language, try to change the world their fathers left them, etc.
Early Leonard's poetry is better example of this than his music. He already left his home, lived through more than most of us ever will, before he started singing, but some of that spirit stayed in his songs for ever.
Kush quoted Bob Dylan (he has a strange ability to find a perfect Bob Dylan quote for everything): Oh I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now......, which is funny, because Dylan was still quite young when he wrote that. I think maybe even younger than Leonard was when he started singing. Therefore; even early songs by Leonard are reflections of a fully developed and mature poet.
One more thought: aren't poets mostly younger than novelists? Ivo Andric (Bosnian Nobel Prize winner) wrote (bad) poetry when he was young, and later he wrote (great) novels. Perhaps there's more prose in Leonard's poetry now.
More direct and less metaphoric?
Hi Jurica ~
If considering Leonard's songs as "poetry," I think Ten New Songs is definitely less metaphoric and more direct than others from the past. However, I wouldn't even consider venturing a guess regarding what awaits us with his next release. At this point, I wouldn't begin to suggest that Ten New Songs marks a change in trend or direction for him.....lyrically or musically.
It seems his poetry is still pretty metaphoric, from what I've seen. A lot of speculation as to what his last, "recently" posted, ones have "really" meant. That's a good point you make, with your examples, of how different poets have varied relative to their age. It does seem, as a "rule" [as much as there can be one], that the recognition of one's own, emerging identity ~ as an individual separate from the rest of the world ~ does come in the earlier years, with magnificent proportion of passion accompanying it. The wrongs and injustices are recognized with that purity of emerging self, which can lend itself extremely well to poetry and songwriting. Then, with "adulthood" and acclamation to the "real world" of survival through socialization, that passion subsides [at least somewhat] and focus goes toward the day-to-day living of life. I think that younger people have a greater sense of strength in their autonomy and perceived ability to "change the world," so the rebellion surfaces in greater magnitude at that point. The rebellion against father [and mother] may also play a huge part in that, as you noted.
I do think that younger people feel more confident in their ability to write a poem than a novel. They also have [as a general rule, I'd say] less of the exposure to the world and various personalities, character, and handling of situations that is required for conception and implementation of adequate character and plot development, that would resonate with the reading world as "realistically possible or likely." So, poems work well to express what's going on inside them, without having to hold up as much to any world-view measure. They can also adequately express their rage as to what they are observing in the world around them and recognizing as unjust.
However, some [like Leonard] continue in that passionate recognition of how the world does not "fit" ~ Everybody Knows, The Future, Democracy, etc, ad infinitum and he continues to write and sing about the inequities that another younger person, growing older, may have numbed themselves to and even accepted as the "norm" and "just life." I recall reading somewhere about Leonard how the Leonard of long ago remains the Leonard of today with regard to his political/social/personal observations and concerns. So true.
That's interest that Eliot would have written a "Survival Guide for Poets." Without reading it, it seems to me there is no prescribed fashion for poets to survive, that each one will come according to their own way. However, that may not be so, and there may be some universal givens regarding survival.
Interesting conjectures, jurica.
~ Elizabeth
If considering Leonard's songs as "poetry," I think Ten New Songs is definitely less metaphoric and more direct than others from the past. However, I wouldn't even consider venturing a guess regarding what awaits us with his next release. At this point, I wouldn't begin to suggest that Ten New Songs marks a change in trend or direction for him.....lyrically or musically.
It seems his poetry is still pretty metaphoric, from what I've seen. A lot of speculation as to what his last, "recently" posted, ones have "really" meant. That's a good point you make, with your examples, of how different poets have varied relative to their age. It does seem, as a "rule" [as much as there can be one], that the recognition of one's own, emerging identity ~ as an individual separate from the rest of the world ~ does come in the earlier years, with magnificent proportion of passion accompanying it. The wrongs and injustices are recognized with that purity of emerging self, which can lend itself extremely well to poetry and songwriting. Then, with "adulthood" and acclamation to the "real world" of survival through socialization, that passion subsides [at least somewhat] and focus goes toward the day-to-day living of life. I think that younger people have a greater sense of strength in their autonomy and perceived ability to "change the world," so the rebellion surfaces in greater magnitude at that point. The rebellion against father [and mother] may also play a huge part in that, as you noted.
I do think that younger people feel more confident in their ability to write a poem than a novel. They also have [as a general rule, I'd say] less of the exposure to the world and various personalities, character, and handling of situations that is required for conception and implementation of adequate character and plot development, that would resonate with the reading world as "realistically possible or likely." So, poems work well to express what's going on inside them, without having to hold up as much to any world-view measure. They can also adequately express their rage as to what they are observing in the world around them and recognizing as unjust.
However, some [like Leonard] continue in that passionate recognition of how the world does not "fit" ~ Everybody Knows, The Future, Democracy, etc, ad infinitum and he continues to write and sing about the inequities that another younger person, growing older, may have numbed themselves to and even accepted as the "norm" and "just life." I recall reading somewhere about Leonard how the Leonard of long ago remains the Leonard of today with regard to his political/social/personal observations and concerns. So true.
That's interest that Eliot would have written a "Survival Guide for Poets." Without reading it, it seems to me there is no prescribed fashion for poets to survive, that each one will come according to their own way. However, that may not be so, and there may be some universal givens regarding survival.
Interesting conjectures, jurica.
~ Elizabeth
I only object to this idea that his celebration of lust in his earlier work is somehow "wrong" and that post - 1980s he achieved wisdom with age and left that sort of stuff behind. It is not "wrong" to celebrate lust and he didnt leave it behind. Read the lyrics of Light as A Breeze, he is celebrating oral sex - a 1990s song. And he is spending so much time in a country whose religious symbols that are worshipped include stone icons of enlarged male genitalia. Well....I rest my case.
Just to be boring lets go back to birthdates. I met a man ( later to become my husband) to find his son and I share the same birthday so there is no excuse for him or myself to say "Oh sorry I forgot!" I was born on the patron Saint of music day, St Cecilia, so when my step daughter had her first child I looked to see who else shared her birthday it was Adolph Hitler then when her second was born I thought surely he would have better luck, its the same date as Margaret Thatcher 
I just hope she stops at two 
Altinkum
I just hope she stops at two Altinkum
I do not believe in the fairy-tale, knight in shining armour view of romantic love. That is just a caricature of real love.
But any civilization that celebrates lust, whether it is ancient or modern, Western or Eastern is a civilization that ultimately self-destructs. The lot of women in these cultures (past and present) is especially sad. When the primary value assigned to a woman is her sexual role she is invariably relegated to an inferior position in that society. Even the role of mother is of importance only if she produces males. The prevelance of symbols of male genitalia as objects of worship is telling.
But any civilization that celebrates lust, whether it is ancient or modern, Western or Eastern is a civilization that ultimately self-destructs. The lot of women in these cultures (past and present) is especially sad. When the primary value assigned to a woman is her sexual role she is invariably relegated to an inferior position in that society. Even the role of mother is of importance only if she produces males. The prevelance of symbols of male genitalia as objects of worship is telling.
You've made some really good points, songster, and I cannot wholeheartedly disagree with you. I didn't think the objection was to lust in itself [initially here], but more related to minors and child molestation. However, the age of minor status and consent varies according to culture, but then so does the ingrained , societal mindset by everyone, so it seems to not be a traumatic phenomena in those situations.
The worship of lust I see as being different from the acknowledgement of lust, and for some, in both recalling and anticipating it [as in poetry and song], the celebration of it. It is a vehicle for complete abandonment, and wonderfully affirming when experienced within the safety of a relationship [and some/many would argue, when experienced elsewhere, as well. I can only speak for myself]. The lustful urges in human beings, I feel is what enables procreation for basic survival. Pheromones are not societally generated. At a certain point, another dynamic and energy dominate and all decorum disintegrates. This lustful longing and satisfaction occur within solid relationships and marriages, for others' partners, for people we don't give a hoot about [really], and is not restricted to the male sex.
It occurs within the context of deep respect and love, as well as wantonly most anywhere. Light As A Breeze is a sensual and beautiful example of it. Granting oneself permission to let go and enjoy is a beautiful thing, when society does all it can to constrain us. I feel that songs such as Light As A Breeze, where the material is handled in the way that Leonard handles it, helps to give people permission to follow, rather than deny, natural urges and pleasures. This is not restricted to women. There are many men who cannot allow themselves to let go, either. Again, when it is exploited in what I see as perhaps fitting the connotation of the term "worshipped," then other things that are equally important are sidelined, undermined, and sometimes invalidated to the destructive extent, throwing things out of balance.
When observing animals, their mating behaviours could best be equated with lust, and mating behaviours they are. Even though the historical place of women is as you have said, Songster, I don't feel that lust itself is to blame for that. The subjugation extends in and from many directions. I see us as sentient beings and lust as a naturally-occurring part of that, the creative, life force at its strongest, rawest, and most powerful.
However, I'm very interested to hear anything else you may say on it.
The worship of lust I see as being different from the acknowledgement of lust, and for some, in both recalling and anticipating it [as in poetry and song], the celebration of it. It is a vehicle for complete abandonment, and wonderfully affirming when experienced within the safety of a relationship [and some/many would argue, when experienced elsewhere, as well. I can only speak for myself]. The lustful urges in human beings, I feel is what enables procreation for basic survival. Pheromones are not societally generated. At a certain point, another dynamic and energy dominate and all decorum disintegrates. This lustful longing and satisfaction occur within solid relationships and marriages, for others' partners, for people we don't give a hoot about [really], and is not restricted to the male sex.
It occurs within the context of deep respect and love, as well as wantonly most anywhere. Light As A Breeze is a sensual and beautiful example of it. Granting oneself permission to let go and enjoy is a beautiful thing, when society does all it can to constrain us. I feel that songs such as Light As A Breeze, where the material is handled in the way that Leonard handles it, helps to give people permission to follow, rather than deny, natural urges and pleasures. This is not restricted to women. There are many men who cannot allow themselves to let go, either. Again, when it is exploited in what I see as perhaps fitting the connotation of the term "worshipped," then other things that are equally important are sidelined, undermined, and sometimes invalidated to the destructive extent, throwing things out of balance.
When observing animals, their mating behaviours could best be equated with lust, and mating behaviours they are. Even though the historical place of women is as you have said, Songster, I don't feel that lust itself is to blame for that. The subjugation extends in and from many directions. I see us as sentient beings and lust as a naturally-occurring part of that, the creative, life force at its strongest, rawest, and most powerful.
However, I'm very interested to hear anything else you may say on it.
Last edited by lizzytysh on Mon Jun 09, 2003 3:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
birth sign
who is a leo?
.In reading through this I don't know who is right or wrong, I do however agree more so with Songster. There seems to be a very thin line on when lust becomes wrong in my opinion. If no one is being hurt by it is one.
My dictionary defines lust as a intense or unbridled sexual desire, lasciviousness, lewd. Also an intense longing.
LC did not seem to be a happy person during his earlier years for whatever reason. This longing seemed to not get satisfied.
I prefer the word longing.
My dictionary defines lust as a intense or unbridled sexual desire, lasciviousness, lewd. Also an intense longing.
LC did not seem to be a happy person during his earlier years for whatever reason. This longing seemed to not get satisfied.
I prefer the word longing.
Linda
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tom.d.stiller
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- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
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Sonnet 129
Th' expense of spirit in a waste of shame
Is lust in action; and, till action, lust
Is perjured, murderous, bloody full of blame,
Savage, extreme, rude, cruel, not to trust,
Enjoyed no sooner but despisèd straight,
Past reason hunted, and no sooner had
Past reason hated as a swallowed bait
On purpose laid to make the taker mad.
Mad in pursuit, and in possession so;
Had, having, and in quest to have, extreme;
A bliss in proof, and proved, a very woe,
Before a joy proposed; behind, a dream.
All this the world well knows, yet none knows well
To shun the heaven that leads men to this hell.