Black bird

Boss · Post by **Boss** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:41 pm

Thanks Lizzy

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:58 pm

Ah, yes [and you're welcome

, Boss] ~ 'Aura' will work [though those are generally 'fields of light/electromagnetic fields, capturable on the right kind of specialized film].

'Essence' would be good, too ~ I feel.

A shame that we have to always search for the exactly 'correct' word, when we're trying to label something that's quite unlabelable, isn't it

?

~ Lizzy

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:18 pm

lizzytysh wrote:Dear Fljots ~

You know I love you !

The irony in your chosen signature, however, just jumped off the page at me [I successfully dodged it ] ~ and I feel compelled to repeat it here. Notice any key words? :

O chosen love, O frozen love, O tangle of matter and ghost. O darling of angels, demons and saints and the whole broken-hearted host - Gentle this soul. Gentle this soul.
[Of all the words Leonard has ever written or spoken, for you to choose from... ]
As 'they' say, sometimes "the proof is [just right there] in the pudding" .

Love you, Fljots ,
Lizzy

LOL! Yes... but I just love the song, Lizzy - it is SO Cohen. HE is spiritual. I LIKE that he is. But in no way do I believe in a separable, immortal 'soul' (ghost) myself.

And in any case, the words go so beautifuly together that the undelying beliefs don't matter, for me.

Also... I have a background of religious belief, so although I am not a believer, I have knowledge and understanding of belief and beliefs; they do not feel alien to me.

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:25 pm

Dear Fljots ~

Ah, yes ~ I know it's all true, that which you say about yourself. Still, was I to resist? Not on your life, sweetie pie

! Beautiful song ~ indeed

.

Love,
Lizzy

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:36 pm

Boss wrote:Philo,

We are more than just meat and bone. There is an aura that graces us. I'm not sermonising, I have no religious preference. I just see the life in all creatures, all vegetation.

This part I agree with wholeheartedly. This planet and the life on it are a whole, united (or should be, but the fact we are buggering it up).

And that life is even more precious, in my mind BECAUSE I believe the life each creature lives is the sum total of the life it has. How can you kill anything, when you know you will be destroying a life it only has once?

If you believe the creature/person/plant will have some future existence, then taking it's life is somehow ok, because 'it isn't really dead'.
And war can be seen as ok, because although it is horrible and painful - hey, those killed get born again, or go to heaven, so it is ok in the end, and they are better off than they would be if they hadn't got killed.

But it is different if there is no separable soul. If this is 'all there is', then we NEED to take care of each other, love each other, love the whole of life on this planet and care for it as though it were our baby.
I love this poor, sad planet of ours that we are raping and ravaging; and all the living things on it that we are destroying in our pride and carelessness, and downright callous disregard for any interests other than self and money.
Sorry.
This is another of my high horses.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:38 pm

lizzytysh wrote:Dear Fljots ~

Ah, yes ~ I know it's all true, that which you say about yourself. Still, was I to resist? Not on your life, sweetie pie ! Beautiful song ~ indeed .

Love,
Lizzy

Heheheh! Of course not resist!

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:43 pm

Dear Fljots ~

I agree with what you're saying regarding the high regard for all lives we need to have; however, we differ in that I don't feel it is all incumbent on the belief that this is their/our only one. Spiritual evolution counts. Immediate, quality of life counts. Compassion counts. Many things count.

Love,
Lizzy

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:45 pm

Yes, I agree, Lizzy. But there is more urgency, more immediacy(sp) when there is no other future. Imo.

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:49 pm

Hi Fljots ~

Yes, I agree that the feelings of desperation would be/are greater when concerning loss. Is it the Hindu religion that does not believe in reincarnation. Any footage of them [if it is them] shows incredible wailing when someone dies. Such an insufferable feeling of total and absolute loss. My heart wrenches when I see it. From my perspective, they are inconsolable souls.

~ Lizzy

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:08 pm

We Westeners tend to be restrained in our expression of grief. Other nationals grieve openly and loudly, and - to Western eyes (English/American, anyway) - extravagantly, regardless of what they believe of 'afterlife'.

I do not believe Hindu's are more or less inconsolable than others. I have been the friend of a Hindu lady for many years. She is the most serene person I have ever met.

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:42 pm

Oh, yes. I didn't mean to suggest that any particular person of the Hindu faith would not be serene in their daily life; or, even, perhaps, during their time of grieving an intense loss. I was speaking only in terms of grief, and as related to the belief system of a particular religion; and, I did interpret the intensity I'm speaking of as being related to the extreme sense of loss that accompanies death, when there is absolutely no faith regarding afterlife to fall back on. No consoling thoughts or comments of, "S/he's better off, now, with G~d," etc. I won't list more than that because there are just so many faith-based things that are said.

However, if the loss is absolutely considered total and forever, it makes sense to me [even though I used the word wailing, it's because I couldn't think of a better one when I wrote it] that the grief would naturally go to deeper recesses in a person's being, ones that aren't 'cushioned' by faith. As you said, too, faith helps assuage people's intense fear of death. Hence, lack of faith, I would expect might promote a more intense experiencing of death.

If 'religion' and 'faith' are the balm that help us feel better about the idea of dying, as we live; why wouldn't it follow that it would also be the balm, that would help us feel better about the reality of someone else's dying, when it actually happens. The lack of it as we live, it makes sense to me, would have the inverse effects, both as we live, and as we experience others' deaths [and our own, up to that 'passing' point].

I am not caused to feel uncomfortable by people's intense grieving, but rather feel it's somehow good that they are able to release that intense energy vs. stuffing it, which [at least in the extreme] can really cause serious problems, in the end.

~ Lizzy

Boss · Post by **Boss** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:32 am

The Hindu religion does believe in reincarnation. In fact they believe in 10 incarnations of a supreme avatar. Some believe Siddhartha Gautama - the Buddha - was the 9th.

I agree with Fljots. Once we die, we die. We are passengers on a ship. We do the best we can on our voyage, enjoying the bouquet that G-d bestows upon us and then we slink back into umpteen billion years of nothingness. It is this horror that has so affected Man's psyche that this is where many stories, many religions have had their genesis. The fear of death haunts all of us. From our childhood nightmares to watching a suspense/thriller. It is the ultimate fear - the reason for reincarnations, resurrections, heaven. The point is, we live 70 or 80 years (if we're lucky!) and that's it. But what to contribute in that time?! What loves to endure, what compassion to share? And what of coming to terms with the Oneness of all things - G-d?

The reality of dying is sad, even horrific, and the finality of it even sadder, but it is Life that opens us up. We are animals and it is the act of nurturing, so prevalent in our animal cousins, that we must practice. In the end, even faced with precarious times like today, Love wins. It always does. Funny about that!

Peace

Boss

Maybe I'm wrong; maybe we don't die
Adam

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:58 am

Well, dang it!?! What religion is it that I'm thinking of, then?

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:53 pm

lizzytysh wrote: I was speaking only in terms of grief, and as related to the belief system of a particular religion; and, I did interpret the intensity I'm speaking of as being related to the extreme sense of loss that accompanies death, when there is absolutely no faith regarding afterlife to fall back on. No consoling thoughts or comments of, "S/he's better off, now, with G~d," etc. I won't list more than that because there are just so many faith-based things that are said.

Yes, I understand and appreciate that people feel such a need.

lizzytysh wrote:However, if the loss is absolutely considered total and forever, it makes sense to me [even though I used the word wailing, it's because I couldn't think of a better one when I wrote it] that the grief would naturally go to deeper recesses in a person's being, ones that aren't 'cushioned' by faith. As you said, too, faith helps assuage people's intense fear of death. Hence, lack of faith, I would expect might promote a more intense experiencing of death.

And a more intense experiencing of life. One is less inclined to take things for granted. Let me give a little example: an artist, a painter, will see things others just pass over without noticing - the myriad shades of colour in a leaf, rather just registering 'green', for example.
In the same way, if you believe this life is ALL, you drink it in, every detail of it; you notice things - the brave little weed clinging to life in a few grains of soil in a gutter; the ants scurrying through the grass of your lawn; the end-of-season bumble-bee dying on the path; the colour of the sky and how it enhances the trees; the fleeting expressions on a toddler's face; the warmth in the eyes of loved ones and strangers, or their hidden pain... You just NOTICE so much more, as a painter does.

lizzytysh wrote:If 'religion' and 'faith' are the balm that help us feel better about the idea of dying, as we live; why wouldn't it follow that it would also be the balm, that would help us feel better about the reality of someone else's dying, when it actually happens. The lack of it as we live, it makes sense to me, would have the inverse effects, both as we live, and as we experience others' deaths [and our own, up to that 'passing' point].

I am not caused to feel uncomfortable by people's intense grieving, but rather feel it's somehow good that they are able to release that intense energy vs. stuffing it, which [at least in the extreme] can really cause serious problems, in the end.

~ Lizzy

Yes, it is a balm. Especially if the loved one is young.

But, speaking as an 'older person' - though I do not consider myself really old yet - I can say that death holds no fears for me. It is something I even look forward to - a sleep I will no longer need to wake from, to take up for yet another day the burdens of an aging body. Because the mind does not age (the BRAIN might, but not the MIND - and PLEASE don't equate mind with soul!

I can see you doing it!

); the mind remains young and vital and interested, and the aging body IS a burden.

We grieve for our loved ones because we miss them; because we did not treat them as well, perhaps, as we would have wished, in retrospect. An 'afterlife' consoles us in part for our perceived neglect, but not for the 'missing them'. There is no real consolation, either in belief or disbelief, imo. The person has gone, and left a hole in our life that will never be filled. Religion/belief tries to fill the hole, but fails. How can it be otherwise?

We don't have to agree about everything, though, do we Lizzy?

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:09 pm

Boss wrote: The Hindu religion does believe in reincarnation. In fact they believe in 10 incarnations of a supreme avatar. Some believe Siddhartha Gautama - the Buddha - was the 9th.

Ah, yes. Githa and I have never discussed religion, so I was not in a position to contradict Lizzy, even though I had a vague idea they believed in reincarnation. I'm not sure Githa does, though.

Boss wrote:I agree with Fljots. Once we die, we die. We are passengers on a ship. We do the best we can on our voyage, enjoying the bouquet that G-d bestows upon us and then we slink back into umpteen billion years of nothingness. It is this horror that has so affected Man's psyche that this is where many stories, many religions have had their genesis. The fear of death haunts all of us. From our childhood nightmares to watching a suspense/thriller. It is the ultimate fear - the reason for reincarnations, resurrections, heaven. The point is, we live 70 or 80 years (if we're lucky!) and that's it. But what to contribute in that time?! What loves to endure, what compassion to share? And what of coming to terms with the Oneness of all things - G-d?

The reality of dying is sad, even horrific, and the finality of it even sadder, but it is Life that opens us up. We are animals and it is the act of nurturing, so prevalent in our animal cousins, that we must practice. In the end, even faced with precarious times like today, Love wins. It always does. Funny about that!

Peace

Boss

But you believe in a god? That seems a little odd, considering you don't believe in life after death.

But yes, I agree with much of the rest; especially the need for nurturing - and nurturing not just our own, but doing what we can for others and the planet, too.
Can I share just one of the small things I do? It's very small, but I hope it saves the lives of some stray/feral cats/kittens and other small creatures:
I wash and CRUSH all cans before throwing them in the bin (you only need to stamp on them to close them).
Uncrushed cans, with food traces in them, attract strays and small animals, and they put their heads into them to get the food traces. They can become trapped with their heads inside, or suffer cuts to face and neck as they struggle to get out. Those wounds WILL become infected. Either way, the poor things die in fear and pain.