I Am Your Butcher (unfinished)

[Young dr. Freud]

Do you Create anything yourself? or do you just bottom-feed off of others, who however lamely or well, endeavor to express themselves in words?

Tsk. Tsk. Please try and use an original argument. Please don't repeat the same tired, old, crybaby question every half-assed poet uses when some piece of hogwash doesn't get the response they want.

[Teratogen]

how about the argument that you are an asshole? can that one be justified? anyone wanna support me on this one?

[Charles]

Teratogen:

I do not think it does anyone any good to 'get out the vote' on this. I think it is counter-productive. I agree with Laurie that you are obviously very intelligent. But truthfully I do not like most of your poems. You seem to always have a personal ax to grind. Poets who have an ax to grind generally do not write good poetry. They write polemics. You have to be a very, very gifted and write very carefully to get away with this kind of animosity.

I think you are capable of better writing.

Charles

(I think that Dr. Freud is a jokester and is entitled to his little jokes and I have to admit sometimes he makes me laugh).

Charles

[Teratogen]

i understand what you are saying, charles. sometimes i feel like i OUGHT to write something different. i am inspired by so many things. some things make me angry and some things make me think. i only wish i could write like leonard, or even lou reed, among others. but i am, no denying, a huge fan of marilyn manson, and i don't expect anybody on this baord to understand that, or listen to him themselves. a lot of the way i used to write, when i really began writing in junior high, was very vague, emotional, and had no substance. the words were embellished, thesaurus-products of generic words. but in the end it's all generic anyhow: anger, hate, depression, melancholy, cynical... (and even the lovey dovey stuff i would write--if i did at all--was very trite and common, as are most love songs and stuff). as i grew i was inspired by things that made me want to be a better writer. marilyn manson has the gift of mixing wit with irony and cynicism. i love the way he writes. he makes up words out of other words sometimes, can rhyme a couplet or even a quattrain of powerful lines, and it is very attractive to my mind.

later in my life i came across cohen and lou reed. they wrote, sometimes, about similar things i'd hear manson sing about. but the bulk of both artists' work did not. and that doesn't matter to me. aside from the music the lyrics represented a literary component that i never found in song before. it amazed me. i believe someday i'll graduate from my polemic rants and hate-filled sermons. maybe i am too juvenile to post them here. or maybe the poems are just too juvenile. but i also think that maybe i need this. maybe i need to ride it out until i'm completely tired of writing this way. i dunno... just a thought.

[LaurieAK]

T~ You are very good writer and will only get better...keep at it...You have proven yourself to be open minded to criticisms and comments. I wouldn't describe you as juvenile or your poems. Youthful and enthusiastic...but not juvenile.

As for YdF....i decided this morning i was quite smitten with this insulting, arrogant person and dedicated a poem to him (sotto la stella). But not to worry, it expires in 24 hours from my declaration, then we'll all turn into pumpkins or wicked step sisters....or gawd forbid, condescending pyschiatric types.

ciao,
L

[Teratogen]

HA! that's great, laurie. i think he's only trying to get a rise out of people. for what purpose i couldn't tell you. it's his own agenda so let's let him insult us all until he's happily depressed that his own bitterness has gotten the best of him.

[lizzytysh]

Hi Teratogen ~

I say embrace your anger, and fervor in presenting it as such. You have many years to round the edges of your expression. Part of it will come naturally, and the other part will come by intent and through honing your personal expression. However, there are plenty of the apathetic to more than offset your taking your stands and shouting your views, if 'need' be. The years will have their own effect, which may even become regrettable to you at some point. I feel it's good that you will be able to look back upon how you wrote during this period of your life. Just don't ever give in to the temptation to destroy these writings. Sometimes people do that on the premise that it's just rubbish and pointless rantings.

I recall a feeling of discomfort when I read Laurie's comment awhile back that your writing "reeks of youth" ~ I had no problem with the "youth" part, but "reeks" certainly has a negative connotation attached to the intensity aspect that I believe now she intended to convey with it. At the time, I wasn't entering in, but considered doing so at that juncture. However, her subsequent comments to you have clarified everything to my satisfaction as far as the 'judgemental' aspect that "reeks" brought to it.

There are those who think everything is just peachy keen. It's not. Without voices such as yours, at this stage of your life, people who care enough to get behind the machinery for change, at a later stage in their life, would probably not be where they need to be when they need to be there. Your dissenting voice has value. How it comes out is a matter of style. Some won't take you seriously as a result; but your learning will come as a natural process. Some will come, as your own intention to make your style be different occurs. Some will come as a result of a certain amount of feeling disheartened by it all occurs. For now, shine the light on the things that upset you and express that anger that you feel because of it. That's my own feeling on you and your style.

Now, to this thing you have with the punk set . It baffles me a bit personally, but that's okay. As I'm recalling, your own personal style appeared to be at least somewhat in the 'Goth' realm, moreso than not, but I can't remember exactly why. I recall your wearing a lot of black, but beyond that, I'm not sure what it might have been, but it seems there was more. I know there are infinite divisions between the various 'styles' of today, so I probably didn't nail it. However, I've heard/read that there is a considerable degree of 'competition' and 'judgementalism' between the various styles. Your thing with the punk set [or pseudo-punk set, as you'd probably clarify] appears to be [from where I sit] more of that nature. The 'Goth' style is just as 'offensive'/'threatening' to some segments of the general population as the punks. Perhaps, even moreso, as [erroneously] it visually attaches to the 'Satanic underworld.' Those are simply some thoughts, which from your perspective will no doubt set up a grid for analysis of my many errors of observation and understanding .

Anyway, I enjoy reading your 'unsettling' poetry for the things I see not escaping the 'youthful' eye. In many ways, the [generalized] 'youth' of today are seen as being self-absorbed in their cell-phone worlds, pretty much oblivious to what's happening outside of it. I see your 'rantings' as messages of hope that the country won't slide into oblivion for the lack of anyone noticing there was anything/many things wrong.

Well, I've spent waaaay longer than I'd intended here, and I have much to do at work [where I'm writing from].

My best to you,
Lizzy

So, ahem, where is YDF? The clock is ticking......... .

[Teratogen]

hahaha. oh thank you kindly, lizzy. haha.

yes, you may remember me in new york going to the leonard cohen events wearing a marilyn manson t-shirt. but that's ok. in high school i told the kids i wasn't goth because i also listened to elton john. hahaha. they didn't really understand that. it's like, i can play distorted guitars and fast-beating drums and spouted angry rock lyrics in my headphones... or "your song," it really makes no difference, both make me happy. hahaha. can you see me decked out in black garb and stage makeup, nails painted, long black hair, singing to "don't let the sun go down on me" or "tiny dancer"???

my mention of the punks, who "my" goth subculture is cousin to (haha), comes primarily from music, as you might have read in the poem. in my recent years i have come across incredible music, including leonard's. but i have been really into the works of patti smith, iggy pop, a bit of the new york dolls, david byrne, and various others that came out of the new york punk scene in the 70s (except for iggy and the stooges, who hailed from detroit). one of my biggest influences now is lou reed and the velvet underground, who i am convinced, as i listen closely to their music from the late 60s, that they were the originators of what became the punk of the 70s. and of course, that punk was marketed in the 80s, and then it turned into this pile of crap somewhere between the late 90s and the new millennium. i never had a problem with the punks, because i always felt that being the way i am i might easily be accepted, or at least not denied and discarded. but i listened to some of the music... i knew a couple of them... i saw their scene... and i viewed it from the eyes and heard it from the ears of this new fan of the great past punk originators. and i became vilified seeing these people taking their name in vain. not to say it's ALL bad. there are some true believers... those who can never change. i will never change the way i am. the ones that are guided by pop top 40 and mtv, their lord and savior, will soon be destroyed by their own falsities of reality. pop will eat itself.

and i want to say that it makes me smile to hear you say that what i write gives hope that the future will be more pleasant perhaps. literature can either be a mirror, to reflect society; to say "this is what you are," or it can be a lamp, to shed light on something so that it can be seen and understood. i can't say which i am really, but i do want to say this:

i came up with a theory, as written in "starry dynamo." i once wrote an essay for an american literature class comparing allen ginsberg to walt whitman. what i found most prevalent is that walt whitman wrote about love for nature, having his own special ideas of mankind, and had this peaceable wisdom. when you read whitman you get a sense of hope. allen ginsberg, believe it or not, did the same exact thing. ONLY, he wrote about the ABSENCE of the world that walt whitman so beautifully described. it's as if he's asking, "what the hell happened? why is everything going to shit, walt?" he longed for that world and it was nowhere to be found in humanity during his time, except in the music and poets he loved. and my theory goes:

Walt Whitman is to Allen Ginsberg as The Beatles are to Marilyn Manson

now, i hope you understand this... i will be saying this to those who are unaware to any of these 4 entities until they see where i come from.

[Kush]

..and what exactly was Walt Whitman's world that has gone to shit? A world where people of color live in subjugation and where women are disenfranchised? where you are more likely to die of some disease or other than not? Best not to look at the past with rose-tinted glasses (is that the right metaphor?). The good ol' days were never really the good ol' days. You gotta sift fact from rosy fiction.
of course it is not a perfect world today. Its a work in progress and sure there are lots of missteps. But its the only one we've got...better enjoy it!!

I do like Leaves of Grass though.

[Teratogen]

that's not what i meant, kush. the times that walt whitman lived in where one thing. but the world that he spoke of is something completely different. he created this sense of hope and a most hospitable nature and humility in it all. it was something to be proud of to be able to believe in such a thing. but by the time ginsberg came around, nobody was thinking like that anymore.

[lizzytysh]

Hi Teratogen ~

Well, if you don't know which you are, I sure don't ! However, I do know that you can't set about to correct a problem until you recognize that there is one.

Ah, okay, so that was a Marilyn Manson t-shirt, eh? Well, if it registered as being that at the time, the registration ink faded . Actually, I can easily visualize you in full Goth attire and accoutrements . I remember Patti Smith from long ago ~ I had what I believe may have been her first album, and was quite upset when, suddenly , I no longer had it.

"Walt Whitman is to Allen Ginsberg as The Beatles are to Marilyn Manson" ~ I understand what you mean by this now.

~ Lizzy

[Teratogen]

oh, lizzy, you know me too well! i do, and have, in fact, dressed up in full goth regalia. from bottom to top: 3-inch black platform boots complete with zippers and buckles; black pants with zippers on the legs, straps on the back of the pants, many pockets; red, white, or black dress shirt, long sleeve; red, white, or black tie; black vest and black suit jacket; black leather fingerless gloves with metal studs on them; face painted up with the works, carefully, too, i might add, using makeup that is marketed to women and sold in retail stores; black, red, or white (or sometimes a combination) of finger nail polish; long black hair dangling in front of my face. how's that sound? i have pictures. hahaha. i've done worse and scarier versions for halloween. hahaha.

[lizzytysh]

Y'just got that Goth thing goin' on, baby ~ sounds like a wrap to me, pictures included ! I was going to ask, but you saved me the trouble . I loved this ~ ". . . carefully, too, i might add . . ." and can only say, "But, of course ."

I love costuming, and have always been fascinated by the Goths I see shopping at Wal-Mart ~ "Wal Mart ~ Where Goths Gather." I've often wondered how I'd look because there's a real beauty that still makes it through, but I suspect youth is on their side in that . Guess I won't Goth out just yet ~ with little effort, I could easily end up on the scarey side .

[Teratogen]

hahaha. love the emoticon images! they complement your words quite well. hahaha.

can i post pictures in the message board??

[lizzytysh]

Pictures on the message board is rather a Jarkko thing. I think they take up a lot of space, and that may be a problem. However, maybe he wouldn't mind if you posted it for a couple days [long enough for all of us to see ] and then deleted. I, of course, remain open to your attaching one to an email sent privately . I'd love to see you in Goth, and already have my own visions of it ~ I mean ~ .