Irving Layton

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~greg
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Post by ~greg »

Geoffrey wrote:"Whatever was between Irving and I
. . . does not bear repeating," said Leonard recently.

What was he talking about? What could they have possibly done together
that is so private that both are willing to take their secret to the grave?
I demand to know what it was they did. I want to know
and I have a right to know.
...
I want to know what he did with Leonard,
who took the initiative to it
and which of the two was the dominant partner
- and how long did it go on for
and where did they do it.
...
I appreciate you having the courage to participate in this discussion.
Not everyone would be willing. Thank you.

Of course you have that right.
We all have that right.


And so here's what happened:

It happened in a dark alleyway.

In a moment of mutual abject depravity,
the two of them knelt down together,
and prayed for world peace.


Leonard had the initiative.

But then Layton dominated, in decibels.


It lasted 3 minutes
before they reduced themselves to hysterics,
and promises to never mention it again.
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

I've been noticing more and more, Greg ~ you are a very humourous man.

~ Lizzy
PhilMader
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Reply to CBC re: their insolent arts obit. web pg.for Layton

Post by PhilMader »

Dear Mr. Dymond:

Firstly, I read obituaries relating to Canadian poet, Irving Layton's passing in major dailies around the world, as well as on major national broadcaster web sites worldwide. Not one
omitted Irving Layton's nomination for the Nobel Prize for Literature.

Are you telling me that the world decided to give Irving Layton the benefit of the doubt whereas CANADA's national broacaster did not?

SHAME ON YOU!

In the offending article, nowhere was there mention of Irving Layton's receipt of the Petrarch Award by Italy, the only non-Italian ever to receive the award.

Are you telling me that it is impossible to find out whether or not Italy awarded this to Layton?

Mr. Marche's book may have been well reviewed by the New York Times but IT WAS DISMISSED by the Village Voice critic, as a trivial work.

http://www.villagevoice.com/vls/0520,vls2,64036,21.html

Although you mention a positive article on Layton posted on evening, Jan. 4, and I have personally read other numerous positive articles and links on CBC.ca., that mentionned both of the above awards given to Mr. Layton, I encourage you to continue using the offending article, as you continue to do, at this very moment on CBC.ca, as the last word on Irving Layton, Canada's poet.

YES, I'M BEING SARCASTIC!
Yiddish proverb: Life is a joke
Red Poppy
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Post by Red Poppy »

You know folks -
and this is not a joke -
despite his departed state,
Irving doesn't rate
as a writer of the highest class.
He was pass
level - no more.
Don't be sore,
enjoy what it is that you like in him
but remember a whim
is not a work of art,
even after you depart!
PhilMader
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explanation for....

Post by PhilMader »

There is an explanation for your puzzlement, Red Poppy. Layton produced a very uneven body of work but there was so much of it that once the jewels and diamonds were collected, there was enough there to provoke the Nobel Prize Committe, to induce the Petrach Prize Committe to nominate and award our fellow Canadian, Irving Layton - again, the ONLY CANADIAN WRITER EVER, to be nominated for a Nobel Prize for Literature.
Just think in terms of Brazil , there are huge masses of impoverished Brazilians, but the population is so huge, that there are enough comfortable and well=off people to warrant all the luxuries that the West is accustomed to. So, if you want to sell a cadillac in Rio , don't hesitate, and if you want to try to find some gorgeous poetry written by Irving Layton, it's there...just waiting for you.
Yiddish proverb: Life is a joke
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Yes, those are very, VERY significant oversights, Phil. A return to jealousy, it seems to me.

Without the particulars of the relevant education, I can't speak to 'all-time greatness,' but I feel I can trust the wisdom of those who have it and can. I can also speak to what I love. These are two:
Divinity

Were I a clumsy poet
I'd compare you to Helen;
Ransack the mythologies
Greek, Chinese, and Persian

For a goddess vehement
And slim; one with form as fair.
Yet find none. O, Love, you are
Lithe as a Jew peddler

And full of grace. Such lightness
Is in your step, instruments
I keep for the beholder
To prove you walk, not dance.

Merely to touch you is fire
In my head; my hair becomes
A burning bush. When you speak,
Like Moses I am dumb

With marvelling, or like him
I stutter with pride and fear:
I hold, Love, divinity
In my changed face and hair.


By Irving Layton
From The Selected Poems of Irving Layton
Hugh Kenner, who wrote the Introduction, goes on to comment on these lines. To use an un-analytical term, this poem WoWs me.

This book came to me as a VERY appreciated gift from Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan. It's such a well-bound book, I have to struggle to keep it open to the pages I need. I can't even 'crack' it into place, it keeps bounding back to its closed position. I hope I don't wreck it, just trying to quote from it.

Here is another that, whilst speaking of Shakespeare [and I'm glad to see Irving's appreciation of him], reminds me of Shakespeare, for all the ground he covers with regard to man's desire for immortality, through some means, the breath, the written or spoken word, music, or genetics, the passing of the family name, the family business, or others' memories of, hopefully, one's own greatness, to whatever degree the achievement of that was possible. In addition, the hopes one places in one's child as to how they will, hopefully, impact the world and leave their own, lasting mark. The conflicts that arise from wanting to be a hero and to have given birth to a hero.

As a person raises a child, honesty and truth are paramount in that process. When meeting with his child, his son, at this crossroads, the struggle he was forced to deal with is wrought and forged in the integrity of his words. How life reportedly became, later, with his children doesn't do a thing to minimize the importance of the moments described here. I'm not a parent, but how could a parent not relate to the 'agonies' of these moments and the necessary admissions. The 'growing pains' that come with raising a child. Especially, in this case, a parent who's a poet himself, not just a 'casual' or 'serious' poet, but a poet striving for greatness, to at least leave an indelible mark on his landscape. I see many generations of people's lives in this poem. As 'comparisons' go, I'm reminded of the dealing with 'self' and 'truth' that occurred with the father in "Fiddler on the Roof." Eternal themes in both. For all the times that Irving was accused of insufferable arrogance, he clearly had his times of profound humility. Forced through a child, his own child, to confront his own hopes, dreams, and aspirations for their meaning and significance. Exploring in depth and with humour, one's life purpose within the scope of eternity... bringing Nature and the human condition, desirous of immortality, to bear. I love this poem.

Shakespeare

My young son asks me:
"who's the greatest poet?"
Without any fuss I say, Shakespeare
"Is he greater than you?"
I ho-ho around that one
and finally give a hard "yes."
"Will you ever be greater
than . . . a splatter of lisped S's
and P's . . . ?"
I look up at my son
from the page I'm writing on:
he too wants his answer
about the greatness of Shakespeare
though only six and carefree;
and I see with an amused hurt
how my son has begun to take on
one of those damned eternal fixtures
of the human imagination
like "God" or "Death" or "the start
of the world"; along with these
it'll be with him the rest
of his life like the birthmark
on his right buttock; so as though
I were explaining God or Death
I say firmly without a trace
of ho-ho in my voice: No, I'll never
be greater than William Shakespeare,
the world's greatest poetic genius
that ever will be or ever wuz
hoping my fair-minded admission
won't immediately blot out
the my-father-can-lick-anyone image
in his happy ignorant mind
and take the sine away
that's presently all around my head.
That unclimbable mountain, I rage;
that forever unapproachable star
pulsing its eternal beams from a far
stillness onto our narrow screens
set us up as Palomar libraries and schools
to catch the faintest throb of light.
Damn that unscalable pinnacle
of excellence mocking our inevitable
inferiority and failure
like an obscene finger; a loud curse
on the jeering "beep . . . beeps"
that come from dark silence
and outer galactic space to unscramble
into the resonant signature of
"Full many a glorious morning" or
"The quality of mercy is not strained"
or "Out, out, brief candle . . . "
NO poet for all time, NO poet
till this planet crack into black night
and racking whirlwinds EVER
to be as great as William Shakespeare?
My God, what a calamitous burden
far worse than any horl or incubus:
a tyrant forever beyond the relief
of bullet or pointed steel . . .
What a terrible lion in one's path!
What a monumental stone
in the constrictive runnel of anyone
with an itch to write great poems
-- and poets so cursed beyond all
by vanity, so loused up in each inch
of their angry, comfortless skin
with the intolerable twitch of envy!
Well, there's nothing to be done
about that bastard's unsurpassable
greatness; one accepts it like cancer
or old age, as something that one
must live with, hoping it will prod us on
to alertest dodges of invention
and circumvention, like the brave spider
who weaves his frail home in the teeth
of the lousiest storm and catches
the morning sun's approving smile;
Anyhow there's on saving grace:
that forever smiling damned bastard,
villain, what-have-you, is dead
and no latest success of his
can embitter our days with envy,
paralyze us into temporary impotency,
despair rotting our guts and liver;
yes, though the greatest that ever wuz
or ever will be he's dead, dead,
and all the numerous flattering busts
keep him safely nailed down
among the worms he so often went raving
on about when his great heart burst
and all the griefs of the world
came flooding out. His ghost may wander
like Caesar's into my tent
by this rented lake, and I'll entertain
him; but he must also stand outside
begging for entry when I keep his volume
shut, and then he's out in the cold
like his own poor Lear. And -- well --
there'smy six-year-old son
who says of the clothes flapping
on the clothesline: "Look, they're
scratching themselves," or compares
his mother's nipples to drain-plugs
he says he wishes to pull out, or
tells me the rain is air crying
-- and he only four at the time;
and though I swear I never told him
of Prospero and his great magic
asked me the other day: "Is the world real?"
So who really can tell, maybe one day
one of my clan will make it
and there'll be another cock-of-the-walk,
another kind-of-the-castle; anyway
we've got our bid in, Old Bard.

By Irving Layton
From The Selected Poems of Irving Layton

For his daughter, Naomi:
Song For Naomi

Who is that in the tall grasses singing
By herself, near the water?
I can not see her
But can it be her
Tahn whom the grasses so tall
Are taller,
My daughter,
My lovely daughter?

Who is that in the tall grasses running
Beside her, near the water?
She can not see there
Time that pursued her
In the deep grasses so fast
And faster
And caught her
My foolish daughter.

What is the wind in the fair grass saying
Like a verse, near the water?
Saviours that over
All things have power
Make Time himself grow kind
And kinder
That sought her
My little daughter.

Who is that at the close of the summer
Near the deep lake? Who wrought her
Comely and slender?
Time but attends and befriends her
Than whom the grasses though tall
Are not taller,
My daughter,
My gentle daughter.


By Irving Layton
From The Selected Poems of Irving Layton
Oh, to have been able to hear this one read by him. To have been able to hear any of these read by him. All of them.

For a woman, for a man, for a son, for a daughter... this man knew how to write a tribute. Unswerving passion. They sure feel and resonate as being "GREAT" to me 8) .


~ Lizzy :D
Red Poppy
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Post by Red Poppy »

Thank you, thank you both for your replies. Lizzy, I think the Shakespeare poem goes to the heart of my doubts. It's verbose and lacking in serious depth. A Nobel nomination is a fine thing but not a long term arbiter of greatness. I seriously think we need a little time and objectivity on the work before hoisting it up there onto an altar.
And as for putting it beside Yeats, Kavanagh, Wordsworth, Tennyson, Keats, Carver, Eliot...... - don't think so.
To be honest I think - bringing it back to where we are - that Cohen is a much deeper, much more eloquent and much more daring poet than Layton.
But thank you both again and as for the Brazilians with dosh -
put them under the cosh!!!!!
Greetings from Europe,
Red Poppy
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Hi Red Poppy ~

I also think we suffer from an amour with the past... the 'vernacular/rhetoric of the day' appeared in Shakespeare's work, the same as it will undoubtedly surface in that of contemporary poets. Never having taken a poetry course, I can't go into a serious justification for what I'm saying, and I haven't studied either Leonard's or Layton's work... or even Shakespeare's [though I have my favourites] ~ however, there's unmistakably a difference in style between all three of them. As there should be. I also would never take away from Leonard in any of this. Perhaps, you can explain why you feel Layton's "Shakespeare" poem lacks depth. I'm also surprized that you would let this poem, one not to your liking, be the 'seal' :wink: .

~ Lizzy
PhilMader
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not only jealousy, but....

Post by PhilMader »

Lizzy,
It was jealousy but more than that.

It was something of a culture clash ...of a power stuggle, and to my mind, after reading some of the reactions , quite recently, to Layton in some high-powered literary quarters, it still exists.

You have to understand what Layton did. Layton put the Canadian White Anglo Saxon Protestant elite establishment on its head and knocked it a few times on the pavement.

He attacked its literature as stodgey and bloodless. The nordic Canadian
literary establishment elites felt comfortable, felt secure in their reserve, and probably still do. But to those of us who are of a more Mediterranean
mold , we needed more fire. Ergo , the clash of culture (as is a common
expression these days).

Plus Layton was not diplomatic, was very un-Nordic in his attacks, his assaults. He could be cruel. These left very wide open gaping wounds among the elites.

Not among the literate working classes, the labouring classes of Canadian society, be they of nordic background or not. They could understand Layton. His lashing at injustice , his passions, as they themselves indulged in this behaviour , in bars and pubs or in the privacy of their homes. They could relish a poet voicing their passions , their grievances.

So, he left bad karma within the Establishment and they did not, have not forgiven him.

Still, I think Layton changed Canadian literature forever. No writer after Layton needs to censor his /her passions , his/her railings at mistreatment....because it's already been swallowed down by the Canadian public and digested and accepted.

No one is to blame. We are what we are, but might as well put the cards on the table.
Yiddish proverb: Life is a joke
Young dr. Freud
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Post by Young dr. Freud »

The labouring classes (literate or illiterate) are not reading Layton. We're watching TV.


YdF
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Yes, I see that you're right, Phil. Jealousy was a gross simplification and it's far more complex than that. Your explanation lays out on the table what the real issues were... so, it seems that now they're trying to quietly put him to rest, along with all that he stood for... hence, those bizarre write-ups that undermine, by omission, his legitimacy and validation as a writer... ["If we just don't mention it, it might just all go away, and we can return to the safety of our staid harbours"?].

I'm not sure if I'm coming close to accuracy in trying to express what I'm wanting to say here... I can see the huge chasm that you're speaking to and how he burst into the status quo like a fireball.

Thanks for making all that clear for me.

~ Lizzy
Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan
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Post by Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan »

I myself think that Layton was a great poet. And I have no problems what so ever with using the term "great" for him. I think that to compare Layton with some of the poets you listed, as well as most other poets I've ever read is, to use the cliche, apples and oranges. It is natural to compare and contrast things, but it is pointless. I enjoy the poets Redpoppy listed but not any more than I enjoy Layton. All of them less, actually. I refuse to believe that I'm a mentally shallow person because of this. If he doesn't do anything for you then it's unfortunate. But you just have to realize that what is really deep and insightful and brilliant to the next person may not be to you. But that doesn't mean that the persons who hold Layton or any other poet or artist in high esteem have been conned. We have just got something out of it, or it speaks to us in a particular way that it doesn't to you. For example, while I like Wordsworth, I wouldn't even rate him anywhere near as talented as his contemporary Coleridge. But you don't even have Coleridge listed with your great poet list. Now I don't think that makes my opinion have any more weight than yours, just that maybe you saw more depth in Wordsworth and I saw it in Coleridge.
As for Layton, I couldn't write the things that he did. Can you, redpoppy? I see more imaginative uses of language in one of his poems than I do in whole volumes from other poets. But that's just me.
Kevin
p.s. Lizzy, I'll get back to you with what I wrote and lost in cyber-transit yesterday, soon.
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

:wink: Believe me... I understand :shock: .

I also agree with what you've said regarding the compare & contrast of poets, writers, whatever. I haven't studied them to know how they were received in their time or how groundbreaking were their works.

~ Lizzy
solongleonard
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Re:

Post by solongleonard »

Geoffrey wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:43 am I may be wrong, but I think Irving Layton was 'F' in Beautiful Losers. His mother's pet name for him was 'Flamplatz' (Jewish for 'exploding flame') - something Leonard would have known. I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I haven't been able to read all of the recent messages.

I have been thinking about this for a little while and I will see if I can help you soon, Geoffrey.
SOME PEOPLE NEVER GO CRAZY.
WHAT TRULY HORRIBLE LIVES
THEY MUST LEAD
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