Confessions

[~greg]

The examples that you ought to be giving here
are the instances where you think Michael
- and not some other lawyer -
arbitrarily attacks a poem or person.

I would have to go back through the threads and postings to do that,
and I'm not going to do it. It has been attacking. It has been arbitrary.

I can't believe my eyes.


I even almost used the tired old exaggeration-cliche about it's
taking my breath away, except for the fortunate circumstance
that what it really did was made me hyperventilate.

Lizzy, if you honestly don't have the time and energy to find examples,
please produce at least just one.

Because I am not even in the ballpark with you about this.
So I don't even know what we have been talking about.

~~

And yes, you are right, I didn't get your "cross-word" pun.

It's a good one, though. A real beaut.

Apparently my use of the word "crossword"
in the immediate context which you cut out when you quoted me,
was in no way what you were referring to.

You were referring instead to Michael's "attacking" or "cross-word"
way of talking about poems, as you characterize it,
- and not, for example, to his alarming tendency to use
misleading puns and word-plays ("crossword").

And I'll buy that.
Even thought it makes it impossible to understand
why you wrote "Greg said......." and then quoted what you quoted,
and then said what you said about "cross-word" and "excellent site".

Puns always go over my head.
At least when I'm not expecting them.

However, in this case there was a more basic reason
why I missed yours. And why I had to miss it.

To have picked up on your "cross-word" pun
I would have had to be on the same wave-length with you
about Michael.

Which I am not. As I have been saying.

And it's your mission to put people on that wave-length.
Not to pretend that they already are. It's just a dirty
rotten trick to do that. Or else an example of why
I still get the feeling that you must be talking
to somebody else, even after you said you were talking to me.

~~~

So it wasn't "crossword" --- the fallacy of quoting me out of context.

It was "cross-word" ------ another case of the fallacy of assuming as given
that which must be proved.

~~

Michael, too, uses a lot of puns and wordplays.
But usually with him it obviously all in fun.
Although sometimes less obviously so.
And sometimes he's down right acerbic.

And sometimes I think he has a right to be acerbic.
And sometimes I think he goes "one step beyond"
what he a right to step around in.
And then he become "almost human", actually.
Frighteningly real people.

It's then that I hear that music ... - na NA Na na. ...the twilight zone.
Which I return to. Because it's home for me.
And I feel safe again.

Colonel ~greg >
Your mission is to proceed up the Nung River in a Navy patrol boat.
Pick up QC Michael Wolkind's path at Nu Mung Ba, follow it
and learn what you can along the way. When you find the QC,
infiltrate his team by whatever means available and
terminate the barrister's command.

Captain Lyzzytysh >
Terminate the barrister.

General Manna >
He's out there operating without any decent restraint,
totally beyond the pale of any acceptable human conduct.
And he is still in the field commanding troops.

Civilian Red Poppy >
Terminate, with extreme prejudice.

Colonel Jimmy O'Connel >
You understand Captain that this mission does not exist,
nor will it ever exist.

- Apocalypse Now

[Joney]

It seems to me that there is more critiquing of the critiques than of the original poem. It kinda makes me want to post a poem (I already know it would be rubbish) to see how the thread would end up.

[Jimmy O'Connell]

Go for it Joney....!!!!

Watch the shenanigans and don't give a shot!!!!

Jimmy

[Joney]

Ok Jimmy I shall write a hot and steamy poem (wey hey), maybe it will be so bad that people will be dumbstruck and can't even begin to post about how awful it is.

[~greg]

Joney wrote > ...
> more critiquing of the critiques ...


Check this out - The Imaginary Poets
http://www.tupelopress.org/bookreviews/ ... iana.shtml

Translate a poem into English, offer a biography of the poet,
and then write a short essay in which the poem, the poet,
and the corpus are considered –and make all of it up,
without once indicating you have done so.

[lizzytysh]

what it really did was made me hyperventilate.

You're obviously taking all of this too seriously, Greg.

So, you don't agree with my assessment of Michael's treatment of people, relative to their poems. That's fine. If you want to feel/believe/know I'm wrong, that's fine, too. I'm not interested enough to research it for you to 'prove my point.' If you want to admire the interactions you observe, you can do that. If you want to find the times where you may not find it all so admirable, you're going to have to do your own research. I'm not going to provide you any links, nor am I going to bring old postings forward. I have other things I prefer to do. If you're interested enough, you'll do it. If you're not, you'll just dismiss me as wrong, making unfounded claims. It doesn't mean my perspective is wrong or that it's right. We can all place our admiration where and with whom we like. Yours is clearly planted where it's at and mine doesn't share the same ground. It's that simple.

My 'goal' has been to make the point [which admittedly keeps getting repeated in various ways in hopes of someone getting an "Aha!" moment of what I'm saying and mean about postings in this section] about the presumptions that are made as to why people post in this section... and based on those presumptions, how the poems are torn into, in the way that they are... as though there were some kind of agreement. If you want to villify and denigrate me for my use of present examples recently, well... nothing I can do to stop you. You're into it, full steam, full throttle, so go little red engine, go.

People link their music from here. There are other musicians and songwriters here. This is the Member's Poetry and Music section. Why don't the songs [especially those written by the singer] get picked apart, how they sang them, how they played them, how they wrote them, with their singers/writers demeaned as to what they brought to the public domain? Don't you think they're every bit as interested in improving as those who place their poems here? Is it maybe because you often see the real person in the vids, so it doesn't feel quite as good to be dismissive and rude anymore? Why aren't the music links provided here met with critiques? Don't they deserve the same degree of thoughtful and considered attention? Lyrics are lyrics. Why aren't you [and Michael and whomever] going after the songs? So what if they didn't ask for new arrangements, new phrasings, new rhythms, rearrangements and changing of lyrics... surely they, like all other people who write, play, and sing music want to get better. Right? Or are they just children?

With "crosswords"/"cross-words," Michael's puns [good, bad, or otherwise] didn't cross my mind. I thought of the section in the newspaper each week, where crosswords are found... with that as a form of relaxation. I used it to cross-reference as I did regarding an area where the same form of relaxation that's being sought here through harsh critiques... can be done elsewhere... maybe some of us would like to be able to read and enjoy the namby-pamby poetry of regular people, who aren't striving to be published, and to reach perfection.

I'm a little astonished at the degree to which you're 'taking up for' Michael with the vehemence you are. If there were anyone here not needing it, it's him. His trade has prepared him well for any written or verbal battle around. Since you've given me a part in your hypothesized Apocalypse Now, I'm wondering if you're hoping for a bit part as a paralegal in Michael's office. He's already acknowledged that you did a "brilliant" breakdown. If I didn't think I knew better, I'd think you were trying to impress him. Is the role you gave me in your film a starring one?

Again... "I ain't askin' for th' world, baby..." just a little kindness in the way y'speak to someone who's shared their words with you. We're not all as competitive as all that. It's okay if a poem's not perfect. It really is.

So, Greg, if anything here has again not taken your breath away, but actually made you hyperventilate, feel free to do a page-long posting on the fallacies. If you can't see, feel, or find the core of what I'm getting at or what I've been getting at then it's all for naught, anyway. It's not going to happen. You simply cannot see my view. I simply cannot understand your vehement defense of the attitude and the input you appear to consider maestro'onic. We will not be coming to agreement on it any time soon. As I try to explain myself, you call it babbling, or some such. Not everyone agrees with you; and that's enough for me. My inspiration for admiration is different from yours. It's that simple.

I'm trying to avoid... in fact, I'm making a conscious effort to avoid, this kind of discourse... so I won't continue it with you, either.

Never the twain shall meet.


~ Lizzy

[~greg]

Lizzy, I do like Michael.
But I like you too.

There is no accounting for taste.

However, I don't defend people.
And I don't attack people.

What I do, - the only thing I do, - and the only thing I want to do,
is to police the area. I pick up the logical butts that make the place
look like the rear end of a logical McDonnald's.

You just happen to drop more logical butts than most people do.

~~

But this whole idea of the forum as a board-game, really weirds me out.

Nevertheless, if you do ever want to turn it into a real board game,
then I'm your man. I have some slight, if very indirect, expereince in that
kind of thing. A I had a Latin teacher who used some of us students
as beta-testers for a board game he was developping. (It's what became
Avalon Hill's "Sink The Bismark", I think.) And I sort of knew the guy
who created PENTE from Go. He had a sociology degree, and he was
"putting it to good use" as he said, washing dishes at the pizza hut
in Stillwater Ok. Back then he was skinny and dressed as a regular
colllege bum. After hours people hung out at the pizza hut to play
chess and Go. And one day Gary got the very bright idea
to simplify Go. Just to make it go faster. And that was it.
That was all it took. Everything was, like, automatic after that.
After the idea had been had.

PENTE developed for awhile at the hut, until people started
to prefer it to other games. And then, one day, Cary rented a place.
And hired a bunch of slaves. And they began making PENTE boards
enmass. And then he put on a suit, and went around the state
pushing it. And it caught on. And before you know it, the next time he came
around he'd sold PENTE, to Parker Brothers. For several million dollars.
And what was interesting was how quick it all happened for him. In
only a few years he went from dishwasher to millionaire. Down right
inspiring. And then the next year he was still wearing suits. But more
casual, and much more filled out. Which is the thing that got me.
He'd become fat!


~~

As for what I take seriously, and what I don't take seriously,
I am still working on that. Because I have to tell Manna.

She sort of asked me nicely about it. So I owe it to her.
(I also owe her my essay on meditation. (I haven't forgotten.)
These things are in the works.)

[~greg]

By the way, of course trees can cry, what about the weeping willow? jill

i love weeping willows. and I have hugged many.

i associate those memories with wet trouser legs.

~

somehow it seems just right that weeping willows were the original source of aspirin.

[lizzytysh]

Thanks for your "butt" perspective, Greg.

Please submit one of your poems.


~ Lizzy

[Jimmy O'Connell]

PENTE developed for awhile at the hut, until people started
to prefer it to other games. And then, one day, Cary rented a place.
And hired a bunch of slaves. And they began making PENTE boards
enmass. And then he put on a suit, and went around the state
pushing it. And it caught on. And before you know it, the next time he came
around he'd sold PENTE, to Parker Brothers. For several million dollars.
And what was interesting was how quick it all happened for him. In
only a few years he went from dishwasher to millionaire. Down right
inspiring. And then the next year he was still wearing suits. But more
casual, and much more filled out. Which is the thing that got me.
He'd become fat

!


Greg, how do you manage to get your posts to look like narrative poems?
Is there some thingy you click on on this site that allows you to do this?

I notice a good deal of assonance and a certain amount of alliteration sprinkled throughout, for example , "PENTE developed for awhile at the hut, until people started/to prefer it to other games."
Greg you are a poet, not just a critic... come on let the inner poet emerge...
We luv ya... don't be shy...

Jimmy

[jill]

submitted by mistake

[lizzytysh]

Hi Jill ~

I read through your poem this time, appreciating all the work you've done on it. I really liked your evoking [imaginarily or real] the various animals aural responses. The only line that pushed me into confusion was [the one you're probably expecting me to say] "(Butterflies sob)" ~ even though I can relate to the butterfly in its dramatic use here, the animals you've used up to that point really do make a sound; and, except for the sound of their wings fluttering, butterflies really don't. The other thing I considered is that butterflies aren't out at night, so far as I know. So, I'm not sure what other animal/insect to suggest you might use here... perhaps, "Lightning bugs go dark"? or "Lightning bugs fade"? This is, of course, trying to be more literal with your usages. I'm thinking that doves begin to vocalize as day comes on and some may at night, too... though I'm not sure. Anyway, do with it what you will... I feel that particular line could be improved. It's not a 'wild' animal reference, but "Cats scream" or "Cats screech" would be something that also might really happen. What do you think? Is there a particular reason that you chose the "butterflies sob" line? Knowing that might help with ideas for an alternative, if you're open to one.


~ Lizzy

[che]

Greg, your post is brilliant. I have never taken the time and trouble to expose the self-serving logical fallacies that frequent the posts of the complainers. But I had spotted all the ones you mentioned as I read them in the original postings.

greg and mickey you are the brilliant to analysis on the posting here.
And mickey you are very amused because you let greg do all the tiping and then you come in and say ^Yes sir this is true^. I think this is most brilliant and I am laughing for you too say ^Today I have not read posts but I am haveing a happy birthday.^
You make me laugh and I think we would be well if we meet in London sometime where I am working and improving my English.

[mickey_one]

Greg, your post is brilliant. I have never taken the time and trouble to expose the self-serving logical fallacies that frequent the posts of the complainers. But I had spotted all the ones you mentioned as I read them in the original postings.

greg and mickey you are the brilliant to analysis on the posting here.
And mickey you are very amused because you let greg do all the tiping and then you come in and say ^Yes sir this is true^. I think this is most brilliant and I am laughing for you too say ^Today I have not read posts but I am haveing a happy birthday.^
You make me laugh and I think we would be well if we meet in London sometime where I am working and improving my English.

ah, Che don't you go improving now. I love you just the way you are. and also don't you be coming to England without my special Visitor's Guide either. Yihawwww!

[jill]

a rewrite posted here in error.