Wrong Assumption

[lazariuk]

Seems that those words could fit the same title. But, I'd not use those words as
they appear, because as they do, it could lead to a confusion of enabling
and comfort. That's not a message that I'd want to send.

There is already a lot of confusion in regards to enabling and comforting. I don't think my suggestion would neccessarily add to it.

What is comfort? Do you feel alright with my saying that it is a mixture of concern and compassion? Is that not what Manna seems to offer with her words of " a shoulder to cry on"?

What message does it communicate ? I think the message is " Your's is a sad state of affairs, one that other's don't want to experience"

But is the victim alone really the one in the sad state of affairs? And if we insist that he is then is this not enabling what is cruel to continue?

The Russian author Fyodor Dostoevsky wrote a book called Crime and Punishment in which he considered the plight of the jail guards who were placed into the position of having to be cruel to people as part of their daily activity. With a lot of concern and compassion he considered what it did to them. It led him to considering that they were just as much a victim and certainly just as much in need or even more so of concern and compassion as those who they were being cruel to.

More recently an experiment was done at Sanford University where ordinary people from different walks of life were placed into a similar position of becoming guards of people under their control. The experiment was a disastor and had to be stopped because even in an experimental setting the people placed in the position of having control over others became cruel. What especially was troubling even the person running the experiment got caught up in the flow of that direction. It happened in the 70's and the results of the failed experiment is the basis for a class taught at Stanford. It is a course that can be downloaded free of charge at ITunes University
The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil Philip G. Zimbardo - Stanford Continuing Studies
Worth listening to.

I have some stories that I sometimes tell of the way I was treated by some teachers and principals in schools who didn't like me. These stories sometimes bring tears to the eyes of people and they want to comfort me. I was thinking about one such incident one day and the following occured to me " Fuck it could have been worse. What if that teacher liked me and with a series of rewards taught me to be just like him?" I began thinking it was more those who didn't get what I got from that teacher who were more in need of comfort.

What does concern and compassion do to those who are harming others?
I am not sure if we really have enought experience or examples to really know but there is one well known example worth looking at. It is probably one of the most famous converions in all of history.

There was this guy named Paul who was going around gathering Christians and killing them in all kinds of ways. For one group of people he wasn't very well liked. One day apparently he met Jesus on a road that he was traveling and Jesus spoke to him. I found it very interesting that Jesus didn't have a thing to say about the people who paul had hurt. What he did do was demonstrate a concern for Paul and asked him " Why do you kick against the pricks?" Personally I found that a little surprising that the main focus was on what Paul was doing to himself. It did cause Paul to change his ways. I don't think that concern and compassion enable wrong behavior.

I think that a big part of why we feel it to be OK to be concerned for the victim and not so much for the one who is doing the hurting is because we are a little afraid of seeing that in their set of circumstances we most likely would behave in the exact same way. I can't speak for others but I have never had it adequately demonstrated to me that I wouldn't.

[Steven]

Jack,

You are right, your suggestion wouldn't necessarily add to confusion.

"What is comfort? Do you feel alright with my saying that it is a mixture of concern and compassion? Is that not what Manna seems to offer with her words of " a shoulder to cry on"?"
Comfort could be said to be a providing of relief and would fit with Manna's words, if that
is what a situation would call for.

"What message does it communicate ? I think the message is " Your's is a sad state of affairs, one that other's don't want to experience""
A message that may inadvertently communicate a condoning of cruel behavior is what
came to mind. Again, may. Not would.

"But is the victim alone really the one in the sad state of affairs? And if we insist that he is then is this not enabling what is cruel to continue?"
Victims and victimizers both find themselves in a sad state of affairs.

"The Russian author Fyodor Dostoevsky wrote a book called Crime and Punishment in which he considered the plight of the jail guards who were placed into the position of having to be cruel to people as part of their daily activity. With a lot of concern and compassion he considered what it did to them. It led him to considering that they were just as much a victim and certainly just as much in need or even more so of concern and compassion as those who they were being cruel to."
Good illustration, Jack.

"More recently an experiment was done at Sanford University where ordinary people from different walks of life were placed into a similar position of becoming guards of people under their control. The experiment was a disastor and had to be stopped because even in an experimental setting the people placed in the position of having control over others became cruel. What especially was troubling even the person running the experiment got caught up in the flow of that direction. It happened in the 70's and the results of the failed experiment is the basis for a class taught at Stanford. It is a course that can be downloaded free of charge at ITunes University
The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil Philip G. Zimbardo - Stanford Continuing Studies
Worth listening to."
I wasn't aware of this particular study. A "compliance" experiment,
where participants thought they were shocking subjects, by the researcher Stanley
Milgram, comes to mind as somewhat similar in its implications.

"I have some stories that I sometimes tell of the way I was treated by some teachers and principals in schools who didn't like me. These stories sometimes bring tears to the eyes of people and they want to comfort me. I was thinking about one such incident one day and the following occured to me " Fuck it could have been worse. What if that teacher liked me and with a series of rewards taught me to be just like him?" I began thinking it was more those who didn't get what I got from that teacher who were more in need of comfort."
There are victims that identify with the victimizers. Psychologists call this phenomenon
the "Stockholme Syndrome." Good for you, that you, apparently, didn't fall victim to
this.

"What does concern and compassion do to those who are harming others?
I am not sure if we really have enought experience or examples to really know but there is one well known example worth looking at. It is probably one of the most famous converions in all of history."
Hatred won't antidote an inclination to harm others. Thich Nhat Hahn (spelling?) speaks
eloquently of concern and compassion in the face of harm. His monks got it from all
sides during the Viet Nam war and were known to still exhibit concern and compassion,
nonetheless.

"There was this guy named Paul who was going around gathering Christians and killing them in all kinds of ways. For one group of people he wasn't very well liked. One day apparently he met Jesus on a road that he was traveling and Jesus spoke to him. I found it very interesting that Jesus didn't have a thing to say about the people who paul had hurt. What he did do was demonstrate a concern for Paul and asked him " Why do you kick against the pricks?" Personally I found that a little surprising that the main focus was on what Paul was doing to himself. It did cause Paul to change his ways. I don't think that concern and compassion enable wrong behavior."
(Johnny Cash wrote a historical novel on the life of Paul that I recently read. You might
find parts of it to be interesting. I did.) You speak of being surprised that "the main
focus was on what Paul was doing to himself." There seems to be a wisdom in recognizing
that harm we do to others harms ourselves and an appeal to the more recognizable
self-interest in this would make the proposition more "sellable."

"I think that a big part of why we feel it to be OK to be concerned for the victim and not so much for the one who is doing the hurting is because we are a little afraid of seeing that in their set of circumstances we most likely would behave in the exact same way. I can't speak for others but I have never had it adequately demonstrated to me that I wouldn't."
Well, denial and hypocrisy have their part in this as does wishful thinking.

[Manna]

Lizzy,
sorry for the argumentative tone of my last post here. I was annoyed, but I don't think we're really arguing. "Who he was" encapsulates others' perceptions of him for me. If it'd been almost any other child on the swing, I think more effort would have been put into figuring out what had happened. If it had been the teacher on the swing, I think she would have blamed the girl for being absentminded enough to walk in front of the swing sets so carelessly.

For you, (the impression I'm getting is) a phrase like "who he was" has some kind of "deep down" connotation that follows. For me, it doesn't.

[lizzytysh]

Hi Manna ~

Thanks. I'm glad we can talk.

It depends on the context, but I think in this case, I took the "who he was" the way you meant it, without the deep down connotations; however, I definitely went deeper with it, so I can see why you would say that.

If it'd been almost any other child on the swing, I think more effort would have been put into figuring out what had happened.

I think you're absolutely right on this.

If it had been the teacher on the swing, I think she would have blamed the girl for being absentminded enough to walk in front of the swing sets so carelessly.

And this may have to do with the nature of the teacher in question, too, which can make a huge difference; and is another one of those things I'd have no way of knowing, but you would.


~ Lizzy