One Night Stand

[Manna]

Yo, fellas, loved ones...

I have been watching your fighting with great amusement and admiration, but this manner of quoting each other is getting hard to follow.

[~greg]

I, too, was put off [and surprized by ] your comments on Jimbo's choice of screen name, Greg

That's because it's "a man thing", lizzy.

Every few years, without provocation,
I find I must "bury my lance" in the "cold cement" of another man's name.

"One thrust".
And after that I'm ok. For a few years.

~~

Ok.
Maybe I went overboard.

And maybe I did it because of too many bad
--but perhaps extraneous -- associations....

There was an HBO move about 10 years ago called "Citizen X",
about the Russian mass-murder Andrei Chikatilo.

In one scene he rapes a mentally-retarded child.

For some reason the girl giggles just before he strangles her.

jimbo's poem reminded me of that.

And now, on US TV, we are treated to images
of Chester Arthur Stiles filming himself raping a child.

( NAMBLA members believe that children want to be raped.
But, you know, "One wo/man's turn-on is another wo/man's cause for shock.")


That -- and of course every movie about Jack The Ripper.
I mean the way the prostitutes talk to Jack (- playfully -)
before he kills them

Well, jimbo makes his girl talk like that.

And what do they deserve for it?

a tight litle cluster of violent images...

"one thrust"
"lance buried" -
"cold cement" -


It was jimbo's later comment that really got to me

i dont know her name and never will.it was a man thing
that had to be quenched.been 4 years since.need to do it again

It wasn't the girl's playful pornography in the beginning.
It wasn't the violent imagery at the end.

It was that the latter is made out to look like a misogynist's
(if not serial-killer's) idea of justice for the former.


========================

Seriously,
Yeats, Cummings, ...Geoffrey, ....Leonard Cohen .....
--- and jimbo?

No difference?


The argument that since masterpieces of literature, (including Beautiful Losers,)
have been decreed pornographic, and suppressed from time to time,
--and so therefore jimbo's poem must be good,
--is not good logic.

My tolerance for deviate literature is second to none.

I care a rat's-ear whether a thing does, or not, have
"prurient interest", or if it "offends current standards",
or it "has no redeeming social value".

If it has redeeming literary value, it's ok with me.

But redeeming literary value always means humanizing value.

(Often paradoxically. It can be done with any subject.
It's not about the subject. Check out "The Woodsman",
for one degree from Kevin Bacon. Or Naked Lunch.
Etc.)

jimbo's poem is objectifying, and lacking in
any redeeming literary or humanizing value.


============

Anybody who has seen my submissions to the "Other Poetry" section
knows that I don't have any preconceived notion about what poetry
is supposed to look like.

And as for spelling, punctuation, and line-partitioning
-- I just don't notice these things.
I certainly don't judge them.

But this is the "Poetry and Music by the Forum members" section
(in a Leonard Cohen forum)
not the "Member's Personal Autobiographies" section
(of a Charles Manson forum)

It jimbo's poem had been submitted someplace like that,
instead of here, then I wouldn't have commented.

But not because I have great tolerance - or intolerance
- for other people's lifestyles. I just couldn't care less.

(The word "tolerate" itself is ridiculous.
People use it to puff themselves up grotesquely.
Unless they happen to have a police force, or church
congregation, behind them to enforce their attitudes.
In which case they puff up ---dangerously.)

But here, submitted as poetry, I think it's just a really bad poem.

Half a dozen bland similes ....

---"full moon Rising Just like me...... "
---"naked And at half mast,"
---"Back arched, Legs eagle spread,"
---"my lance buried, in her cold cement, like Excalibur' "

tacked onto a journal report about a day-dream,
(or expression of machismo attitude about an impersonal sex episode)
written at the playboy-party-joke level,
is not a very rewarding thing to read.

But can jimbo ever improve?

Of course he can

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman:> Private Joker is silly and he's ignorant,
but he's got guts,
and guts is enough.

- Full Metal Jacket

[Joney]

A lot of testosterone flying about tonight. Not wishing to bait you further but is this an alpha male thing?

Seriously though, you're both very intelligent men (I think, but I may be wrong), be nice to one another.

Peace and love

Joney

[Jimmy O'Connell]

.... up she flew an' never a feather did she lose... not wan...

It's closing time, lads....

... the hay is saved within in the shed...
... the children have gone safely ta bed...
... the cows have been milked...
... the fire is burnin'....
... a cuppa tay an' a big greasy rasher sangwitch are on the plate in front of me...
... what more does a man want... but a bit of peace and quiet to prepare him for the leaba...

... and so I bid ye all a goodnight... after I ate the sangwitch...

... Suzanne takes ya down to a place by the river....
... she is wearin' rags and fedders from somtin somtin counters
... she shows ya where to look among amidst the gaaaarden an' de flow-ers........................................

... an' dats another reason why I left ol' Skibereen...

Up da pair of ya

Gob Fliuich

S.....

[lizzytysh]

Oh, schoot, Greg. You went and diddit. Being directly addressed is semi-compelling.

I'm afraid you made a conceptual leap here on both of these:

Seriously,
Yeats, Cummings, ...Geoffrey, ....Leonard Cohen .....
--- and jimbo?

No difference?


The argument that since masterpieces of literature, (including Beautiful Losers,)
have been decreed pornographic, and suppressed from time to time,
--and so therefore jimbo's poem must be good,
--is not good logic.

The elements in the first paragraph were introduced by different people for varying reasons.

The supposed conclusion on the purported argument in the last was not one that I made. I didn't say his poem was good. I said it was blatantly erotic. If I had said it was good, my logic wouldn't have taken the route you've outlined. My complaints regarding the crits were about the manner in which they were done. Some of your previous comments were the impetus for my making my comment about your reading of Leonard's books.

But, you know, "One wo/man's turn-on is another wo/man's cause for shock.")

Isn't this true, though? Even for men, even though they may tend less toward being shocked?

Well, jimbo makes his girl talk like that.

We weren't there [thankfully], and maybe she talked like that on her own. I didn't get the feeling that he was making her talk like that... either in the situation or in his poem.

It wasn't the girl's playful pornography in the beginning.
It wasn't the violent imagery at the end.

It was . . .

Unless you say what it is, we really have no way of knowing.

jimbo's poem is objectifying, and lacking in
any redeeming literary or humanizing value.

impersonal sex episode

Aren't "objectifying" and "impersonal" at least aspects of most one-night stands?

I don't think anyone considered his poem in terms of "literary" value. I know I didn't. To think of comparing it alongside [in any form or fashion] to the ones you're citing feels ludicrous.

Now, the cold cement analogy I'd never heard... and, whoever came up with it, needs to get back to the drawing board for a better one. Cold ??

You really do have a lot of extraneous associations going on there, Greg. I find the elements that you've singled out as being violent very interesting, as they really are just that... not warm and fuzzy references, at all; and definitely objectifying, through images of weaponry. Still, there's a violent aspect to sex, don't you think? I was thinking that that's fairly well known and accepted. A mix of tenderness, violence, lust, conquest, and such. Acknowledging that by incorporating it through various images doesn't make the writer a potential serial killer, though. It might be a horrible poem, and it might be totally inappropriate to put it here, but Charles Manson it does not Jimbo make . I feel that those implications are at least, if not more [nah, let's just leave it at definitely more], disturbing than anything in the poem. This one really got to you, didn't it? If it's that you're feeling these references are demeaning toward women, I can understand and appreciate that; but it still doesn't put him in the serial-killer league. If it's just plain bad writing, perhaps, he could join the fraternity of badly-written poetry writers, though.

Now, whether this level of sharing is appropriate for here is another matter, too. There have been other poems regarding sexual experiences [one was clearly well-written]... and, actually, they tend to elicit outcries [interestingly, even curiously, seemingly moreso from men ... I've entertained the notion that maybe it's a "man thing" of objection to one of 'em revealing some of that locker-room talk, when what it oughta be is "What's said in the locker room, stays in the locker room." But, I've only entertained that notion. No formal induction ceremonies have been set, yet. In any case, they have been infrequent enough to not have elicited a feeling of concern with me. I survived this one. I seriously don't expect that Jimbo is going to make us privy to all that follows this. Damellon made her point on that and I agree.


~ Lizzy


I had to come home to re-do my latest set of edits, as when I clicked Submit from work, I found I had already timed out on the computer, with no more access available until Monday. They're a little quirky like that. No one can get on over the weekend.

[mickey_one]

Now mickey, EVEN by your standards that's the arrogance of the supremely arrogant. How in the name of all that's holy (and isn't) do you know what Manna feels about my posts?
"'As you like to insist on clarity, what behaviour exactly do you find unacceptable on behalf of Manna?'
none, you soft ninny. you really didn't understand, did you!"

Ducking and weaving again, boyo.
I like the "soft ninny" bit.
When all else fails get personally abusive.
Can give but sure as hell can't take, mick.
Bring out your dead.

1. "soft ninny" is a term of affection.

2. I give up on the exposure of your sarcasm, you're still not even close.

3. I am not sure whether it's important to you to get "under my skin" or affect me in any way, but sorry you are not even close.

4. come round to my Castle and we can sort this out over a cup of hot water, oh sorry you live in Ireland- we're not even close.

[lizzytysh]

A good night to you, for sure, Jimmy. If there are no hangovers, we should all be better in the morning.


~ Lizzy

[Red Poppy]

"....not even close. ...."
A favourite phrase there mickey?

Last time we were in "the castle" we "shot them in pairs coming down the stairs."
Keep weaving and ducking, boyo, weaving and ducking, saves you having to think.

Oh and look there's Manna and she's NOT in tears, Robbing Hood fails to save Maid Manna (again).

[Red Poppy]

greg, where did this notion come from:

"That -- and of course every movie about Jack The Ripper.
I mean the way the prostitutes talk to Jack (- playfully -)
before he kills them

Well, jimbo makes his girl talk like that."

This is like finding one man guilty of another man's crime.
jimbo never suggested the woman was a prostitute, so why do you keep coming back to this issue?
You seem intent on laying your misgivings about one aspect of sexuality/ exploitation on jimbo's writing, even though there's no connection whatsoever.

[damellon]

Can't you two give over?
JImmy - how are you bearing up?

[Manna]

two? which two?

Throbbin Head's attempt to protect me was sweet, though yes, unnecessary. I have let go of the comp. It's in the past, it's not here, I had a good time with it. (I'm mostly only writing this so I can get to call Mickey "Throbbin Head.")

[damellon]

Which two - you don't know?
Manna - just PM him and call him whatever you/he likes.

[~greg]

jimbo never suggested the woman was a prostitute

I didn't mean to suggest that I thought that he did.
I didn't say that he did. And I didn't think that he did.

But I also know that I didn't write too good either.
I know, because Lizzy said so.
(And she was right.)

~~

Jack The Ripper was never caught,
and very little is known about him for sure,

But every movie I've ever seen about him
makes him go particularly berserk
precisely when the prostitutes act playfully,
loose and teasing, and inviting.

And jimbo says:
"She wanted me!"
..."She flirted with everyone,
...
She shuffled.she rubbed
,she touched
...
You can have me
Anytime,
..."



jimbo then follows that kind of thing
with this kind of ending:

"my lance buried ,
in her cold cement,
like Excalibur'
One thrust."

And what I wrote, very badly, was

"Well, jimbo makes his girl talk like that."
---meaning like the Ripper's prostitutes talk in the movies.

And then I wrote a rhetorical question:
"And what do they deserve for it?"


By which I meant

On the one hand
1) what did Jack The Ripper seem to think
that his prostitues deserved for their wanton loose
and playfully immoral behavior?

And on the other hand
2) what did jimbo seem to think
that his girl deserved for her somewhat similar behavior?

~~

I did not confuse the two.
I didn't suggest that jimbo thought of his girl as a prostitue.
Or that I did.

I was simply drawing an abstract parallel
Jack the Ripper / his prostitues = jimbo / his girl

(old notation: A:B :: C:D,
or "in what sense is A to B what C is to D?")

--what each semed to think the girls
deserved for their immoral behavior.

Now, the assumption is usually made about Jack The Ripper
that he thought that his prostitues deserved to be sliced up
and killed, because of their immorally loose behavior.

And I didn't even bother to mention that.
What I did do was to immediately follow asking
"And what do they deserve for it?"

with the answer that jimbo seemed to be giving,
by abruptly following all his talk about his girls'
playfullness, with this

"tight little cluster of violent images...
"one thrust"
"lance buried" -
"cold cement" -

as if that was his idea of justice for her wantonness.

That anyway was the parallel I meant.

But even jimbo's woefully improbable line:
"ill have some of that!
And some of you for my dessert!!"

didn't make me think that jimbo thought of his girl as a prostitute.

(what it did reminded me of
(--and this is telling you more about me than you ought to know)
was one of my favorite movies - "Just LIke Heaven"
- with Reese Witherspoon, and Mark Ruffalo -
when the neighbor, Katrina, says "I've got desert".)


Now, for the last time,
the thing that really put the fear of "serial killer" into my head
was this:

i dont know her name and never will.it was a man thing
that had to be quenched.been 4 years since.need to do it again

And it's all jimbo's fault, because he doesn't use capital letters,
or spaces between one sentence and the next.

It might seem to him to be a very clever thing not to do,
but it has got a lot of negative consequences.

Anyone who knows certain programming languages
is liable to read his sentences as class.subclass
specifications (like C# system.winforms.form)

So they'd read
"4 years since.need to do it again"

as a class.subclass specification.
That is to say, as the material-implication:

4 years => need

Which is probably not what jimbo meant.

Perhaps, then, the following two were completely
separate and distinct thoughts in jimbo's mind:

1) "it's been 4 years since"
2) "need to do it again".


But, as the run-on sentences he actually wrote,
someone like me had to read them as run-on thoughts.

Which then made it look exactly as if jimbo was confessing
to suffering from some kind of 4-year itch
- an itch having something to do with burying a knife (a lance) in girls -
- an itch which he needed to quench, just about every 4 years.

to be considered a bonafied serial killer
you must murder at least three to four people
with a cooling off period between each murder.

I am not at all well versed in serial-killer profiles.
But it wouldn't surprise me if a 4-year hiatus
wasn't a common one between their killing sprees.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


But of course I do not think that jimbo, our jimbo,
is a serial-killer in our midst!!!

(For statistical reasons, if no other.)

And I don't even think anymore that he was
trying to sound like one, for poetic shock-value.

What I do think is that if jimbo wants to communicate
(- which is questionable) - then he really ought to just
give up trying to be clever.and.or.original with the punctuation.

Punctuation is not a trivial subject. It is difficult.

But to not even bother trying to use it to enhances
communication, rather than hinder it, shows
an awful disrespect for people.

~~~~~~~~

I may also have been laboring under another illusion.
I have been imagining jimbo as an old man.

If he isn't, it would be different.

~~

I'll go even further.
The poem isn't at all bad!

I do think that the ending, which seems to return the girl's favor
of playfullness with jimbo's violently abrupt sex-act
(completely explaining why the girl hasn't wanted
to see him again in 4 years) is a sad, but not at all
uncommon denouement to these things, in college.
("But you know you only used to get juiced in it"-BD)

(If that wasn't the way it was, or if jimbo doesn't
want to leave that impression, then he ought to
change the ending.)

~~

I'll go even further yet.

"cold cement", which nobody else seems to like,
--is actually the best thing in the poem!

At least I think I know what it means.
(By way of a a titanic effort of recall.)

I do not recall the whole history of perceptual psychology,
- (only Kant and Helmholtz come to mind)
- but there've been many who've noticed the enormous role
that expectation plays in perception.

If you're expecting hot water, and you wade into
cold water, it will seem at first to be very much colder
than it actually is, and then you just have to get used to it.

(You ought to either jump right in, or else give up and go away.
I despise people who dilly dally around the shore line.)

~~

In this case, if you aren't experienced,
and if what you expect of a vagina
is an infernally hot, soaking wet spongy quicksand like bog,
then your very first impression of a real one
is very likely to be (due to contrast to expectation)
that it is really more like a cold, or tepid,
damp freshly poured patch of cement.

At least if you're stoned.

(And don't even think about it
when you're drunk and on a water bed.)


That anyway was sort of like my first impression of
Peaches La Tour's - in Millington TN - down by the dipsy-dumpster.
(I am sure that wasn't her real name.)
A gorgeous woman, Peaches, I think. (The
impression could have had a lot to do with
another very famous principle of perceptual
psycology 101.)

(Later, when I was leading a platoon around
the BAM barracks, I got distracted trying to
talk to Peaches through the window. And
the platoon dutifully marched on, through
the bushes and into a wall, before I
remembered them. Nor was I ever again
asked to lead a platoon. But I will always
remember that, in connection with Gurdjieffian
"self-remembering", as an excellent example.)

[Jimmy O'Connell]

Mornin' all...
How's she cuttin'...???

I just wanna say that you are all wonderful people...
... the finest cyber pals ever I have come across the length of a day...
... and a warm glow of affection is englobing the globe here...

I'm trying a Slovenian coffee I bought for about four euro...
I think it's doing the trick....

jimbo, where are ya?
Is this helping at all, at all, a gra mo chroi?

jimbo I'm looking forward to your next piece... and I hope that the critique will be about the work not about you, or any of us.

It's about the Word... not the Flesh....

Yep that Slovenian stuff is workin' a treat..
It's called Santana Orient... and then there's some writing>>> I would appreciate a translation:
Mesanica Prazene Mlete Kave

"Kave" I'm presuming is coffee.... jays at least it tastes like it... unless those Slovenians do somethin' with their stuff!!!

Morning has broken
Like the first morning
Blackbird has spoken
Like the first bird....

Dumdee dum do.. da...
dumdee dum do... dee...
dumdee dum do... da..
dumb dumb dumb dee.....

(And no I'm not expecting any comments, structuralist, nor post Kantian analysis... I don't think I could handle it... it would drive me back to the drink...)

Jimmy

[mickey_one]

mornin' Jimmy, I happen to have a Slovenian linguistics professor in my downstairs broom cupboard, (he works as a part-time sclábhaí here at the Castle).

He translates "Mesanica Prazene Mlete Kave" to mean, "a man can inhale a red poppy for ever but never get high". I hope that helps and indeed sets the tone for a day of friendship and togetherosity throughout this fine place.


mickey_one (6 days away from his gualann op. counting and saying "OW" ever louder and more frequently)