Leonard the Monk.

[ryhme55]

Hello,

With my little bit of understanding about Buddhist practice's, it get me wondering about Leonard being a Monk.
my understanding is being a lay Buddhist you can come and go on retreats to Buddhist monasteries, for short or long periods, but am i right that Leonard was an ordained Monk and wore the robes. Now my question is if he became ordained how was he able to come and go at will. I also thought you had to give away everything of money value and live a life of poverty ( I know its a sadly a bit insensitive as i know he had a fortune sadly stolen from him). Also it well documented by Him that he drank large amount of brandy (i think) with his master Roshi. Now it my understanding that Buddhist refrained from drugs and alcohol. Leonard had himself says he is a bad monk but i am surprised that Roshi would drink alcohol.

Now i might have a wrong understanding here, My thought are i would have no problem if Leonard was only a lay Buddhist but if he was ordained and wore the robes wasn't he supposed to live a life of poverty and live to the Buddhist precepts.

I hope someone had a better understanding and can put me straight and clarify things for me.

Many thanks.

Roger

[Red Poppy]

Hi Roger,
I'm not an expert on Buddhist monks but I think your questions are very valid ones and it's interesting that they have been met with a deafening silence on a forum where someone always has an answer or a guiding idea towards an answer to virtually every question.
RP

[ryhme55]

I live near a Buddhist monastery in the UK, which is the Theravada school of Buddhism, and i have met a few monks while out walking in that area. I have read up a bit on it, so as not to be ignorant about their practices, but only the basics. I would thought zen Buddhism keep mainly to the same principles.
I hope the wall of deafening silence is because everyone is reading up on the subject.

[Red Poppy]

Mmmmm..............

[Gerrida]

I've read almost every interview available on the LC files and Leonard himself said more than once that he went to the monastery mainly because of his friendship with Roshi, and not because he was looking for another faith. He took care of his old friend and also did a lot of writing during those nearly five years. He also mentioned that if you stayed there for some time and went through all the daily rituals and everything they demanded from you, then at some time you got ordained as a monk. It is just the way things happen in a Buddhist monastery. When he had to tell Roshi that he had decided to leave, it was very sad for the old man, but of course they are still in touch.

As for the occasional use of alcohol together with his old friend, maybe we should see it as now and then celebrating something special. After all they are just human beings. I can imagine that life in a monastery is hard and stripped from many pleasures that we enjoy in our daily lives. So maybe the two of them sometimes felt the need to just break away a little and have a few drinks together.

Gerrida

[Manna]

So Leonard is an accidental Buddhist?

I think people don't want to answer this thread because the answer is shorter than all the disclamers. Example:

Answer:
Yeah, well, Catholic priests are supposed to be celibate too.

Disclamers:
- fondling (and more) little boys is not on the same level as getting boozy
- not all catholic priests are out there to fondle (and more) little boys, or little girls for that matter
- I don't know why Roshi lets himself drink
- I don't know why Leonard lets himself drink
- I don't know why I let myself drink, just that I like it
- I don't know why Leonard let himself become a Buddhist monk
- I don't know if Roshi has fondled any Catholic priests

[tomsakic]

I suggest you to see 1997 documentary Leonard Cohen Spring 96, directed by Armelle Brusq (released thru Sony France). It shows Leonard and Roshi on Mt Baldy and their daily routine. Leonard was serving as Roshi's personal secretary and the cook. And yes, you can see him drinking with Leonard. Anyhow, my impression was that it was more friendship, than the actual ordaining, although Leonard did pass all usual trainings in the monastery. But he had special treatment - he said himself that he was allowed to have synthesizer against the rules.

Even before official going into the monastery in 1994, for years (since his involvement in Roshi's magazine ZERO in 1979-80) Leonard used to drive or accompany Roshi on his official visits to the monasteries he funded in the US, and also he edited few books about Roshi or his Zen movement in various occasions (what's mentioned in Ira Nadel's biography, like The Zen of Myoshin-ji Comes to the West published in 1987 because of 25th year of Roshi's coming to the US).

[ryhme55]

Thanks for all your replies,

While not begrudging any pleasures that Leonard gets, because he has bought me only pleasure in my life, i have had trouble on these points. Since looking at you replies i have looked at the 10 precepts of zen and although the use of drugs is strictly forbidden i did not see anything about alcohol. in the Theravada Buddhism i know alcohol is strictly forbidden, Perhaps it different in zen.

I have never seen the 1997 documentary Leonard Cohen Spring 96, directed by Armelle Brusq, I would love to see this.
I know in the Theravada Buddhism that once you have been ordained ,you have to live a life of poverty and are not allowed to handle money at all, perhaps zen Buddhism is different.
I know Leonard has looked after roshi for many a year being a friend and cooking for him . he must have learned a lot from him, i know when i listen to a Leonard interviews I find listening to him so relaxing to lisen to.

Roger

[sleep]

The impression I've always gotten from Leonard's zen practice and from Roshi, is that there is no official zen position on the use of alcohol, or sex, or money. A person is encouraged and expected to behave responsibly. It would be very difficult to make money and do a monk's job. But I don't think anyone cares what's in a monk's bank account. As far as I know, Roshi has no personal possessions apart from a few robes, which Leonard has said he allows to become too threadbare.

During a time when I was sitting at the zen center frequently, my mother gave me some jams to take to Roshi and the monks. These things are always shared among everyone. Later, one of the nuns told me that she gave Roshi some of the marmalade with some bread. Later, when she came to take the jar of marmalade back to the kitchen, Roshi didn't want to let it go and she had to pull it out of his hands. It was very good marmalade, though.

sleep

[Elizabeelzebubeth]

That is a VERY funny story! Thanks for telling it, Sleep.

Elizabeelzebubeth

[~greg]

Roger,
You have your koan:

Does Leonard Cohen have monk-nature or not?

And now you have to find your own answer.
In order to achieve enlightenment.

Which could take you decades.
Or your whole life-time.

~~

On the other hand clapping it could come to you in the next second...

~~~

( btw, the correct answer is: 'Wú'. )


~~~~

koan , n., pl. koans, koan. Zen.
a nonsensical or paradoxical question to a student
for which an answer is demanded, the stress of meditation
on the question often being illuminating. Cf. mondo.

mondo, n., pl. mondos. Zen.
a question to a student for which an immediate answer
is demanded, the spontaneity of which is often illuminating.
Cf. koan.

[lizzytysh]

Hi Roger ~

In search of something else, I finally came across what I'd liked to have offered for you much earlier in your questioning. This is available on the Files:

LEONARD LOOKS BACK ON THE PAST


Interview with Leonard Cohen
by Kari Hesthamar, Los Angeles, 2005
(Unedited interview for the Norwegian Radio)

. . .

I don’t think anybody knew that I was drunk, I don’t think I was drunk, in fact I know I wasn’t drunk, because I can’t play when I’m drunk. But it was a wonderful tour, but I was wrecked at the end of it. I think we did almost a hundred concerts. And after that tour was over, and the feeling arose that one often has at the end of a tour, that …because during the tour you know what you’ve got to do at each moment of the day, and at the end of the tour you are dumped into the desert and you don’t remember where your house is or what you would do with your drivers license or if you still have a car or a girlfriend or a wife or children, you know, you’ re just lost. And besides that, my kids were grown, I didn’t have real responsibilities.

And I didn’t know what else to do, and nothing seemed to be as urgent as studying these matters that Roshi embodied and presented with such exquisite clarity and such generosity, so I moved up to the mountain, and after a while I became ordained as a monk. And as I said, not because I was looking for a religion, because that was what Roshi had seen, because if he was a professor of physics in Heidelberg, I would have studied physics in Heidelberg. He was running a monastery and I was his cook, so it was appropriate that I wore the robe of a monk, because that’s the way it is in a monastery, so I became part of the organization, you know, part of the community.

And to work and to stand with those young men and women – I embrace the people who lead a life like that, it’s very rigorous and it takes a lot of attention and devotion to lead that kind of life. And I love those kind of people, men and women, who lead that kind of life and still do, they’re the closest people to me.

You know, I really like that life, it’s very regulated and it has some kind of a military crispness to it . And then, you’ re doing it for a reason, it’s not to build up your muscles, it’s not just a macho exercise, it’s to kind of cook your mind so that you can hear what you’re saying, because you can’t hear what you’re saying if you’re full of yourself. If the daily life hasn’t emptied you out a bit through fatigue or … eh.. Just what would I say, the routine, the routine softens you, you stop thinking about yourself, your plans and you’re too tired to accuse yourself of many things and your not bright enough to think about the things around – you kind of smooth out. That’s what the daily life does to you. So that you’re open to hear something, you know most of us are not open most of the time, we pretend that we are open, but mostly you’re running your own dramatic event of which you are the hero or the heroine. Usually that’s what we are doing most of the time.

So there you get so tired that you can’t pretend, and that’s all that a monastery is. They make you so tired that you give up pretending.

The youth stops being so important, you’re too tired to maintain the hero that you think you are or the failure that you think you are, whatever the version of yourself that you bought into is – I’m this failure, I’m not enough, or I’m this… I’m more than anybody understands. Those versions of yourself are not very useful. I mean, they’re useful when you’ve got to operate, but they’re not useful up there. We all need those versions of ourselves, and it’s perfectly alright. I mean – you’ve got to be an interviewer, I’ve got to be the guy who has written Suzanne or whatever it is – we have to be the things that we are, so that the enterprise can unfold appropriately. But when you’re up there, those versions of yourself they’re not useful. They make sure through lack of sleep, and hard work that, if you’re lucky you can let those things go and actually learn a thing or two. You just get a little more open.

. . .

As near as I can tell, many of us here are at ease with this explanation. Speaking for myself, I know I am and accept it as offered.


~ Lizzy

[koans]

Having practiced a little bit with this roshi and these group of monks, I believe they dont adhere to strict rules about sex, alcohol, eating meat, etc. They do have incredibly rigorous rules about meditation and other practice however. LC in one interview said they like to think of themselves as the marines of the zen world, getting up a little earlier, meditating a little longer etc, then other groups, but they also have an anything goes sort of attitude with respect to what you do on your own time, believe me you don't have much of your own time. If you can drink and get up at 4 am and go meditate all day ( a schedrule on retreats but not all the time) then more power to you, I wouldn't recommend it. The Roshi did like chicken on special occasions and we would all eat that. And yes the nuns and monks did on occasion have sex, so thats just the way it is. This is American Zen, with most of the trappings of a japanese monastary but I think the Roshi found it refreshing that some of his students would do what they wanted, ultimately it was the freshness of American's approach which made this roshi and Suzuki Roshi (Tassajara, green gulch, etc) want to stay here. The Roshi "ordained" lots of folks who went back to normal non-rigorous lives, but the group at Mt. Baldy where LC was is very committed. I spent a few months on 2 occasions doing retreats at Bodhi Manda Zen Center in New Mexico. While I was a huge LC fan before going, I didn't know it was part of his life until after I got there. I'd love to talk with others who are leonard fans (or not) and who spent some time at the Rinzai-Ji zen centers. My understanding is LC has left this time way behind him, there are some disparaging quotes such as the poem about "hating everyone and hoping he wont get found out" referring to his time there but I think this quote withstanding it was a significant experience for him. There's no way one would continue to put up with it if it wasn't, and that last article shows a positive side to the experience. There is possibly diminishing returns to all the discipline of the monastary. Also as LC points out in another interview (maybe Fresh Air) the routine is made to break down (like boot camp) even the youngest, strongest men and women and its kind of overkill when you're pushing 70 and more, so he left. Personally, I do find it a little funny that he was drinking and smoking all through his zen days, and i do think they gave him special lattitude.

Once you get into this zen stuff, many of LC's lyrics seem infused with references to that time. I think Anthem has lots of zen retreat ruminations. Book of Longng is fun because he tries to be as honest as possible about what he really thought about all the zen life, and he is still longing after all these years. The longing and the effort and the striving is somehow more poignant than anything else, its the only thing that remains.

[ryhme55]

Thanks lizzy and Koans,
I a little late thanking you as I have had frustrating login problems which are now fixed (at last).
Your posts were very interesting. As i have said that I have no problem with what goes on at Mt. Baldy and Leonard's life there. My confusion was with Buddhism itself and the differences that arise from different branches of it.
As I said the monastery near where i live in the UK has a lot tighter regime then mt baldy, like not eating anything after midday, not being allowed to handle money, strictly no sex. etc. if interested the website is,
http://www.cittaviveka.org.

Anyway thank you for your interesting thoughts , and i am sorry if i have bored you, but your thought have been most welcome.

Roger

[lizzytysh]

You've not been boring, at all, Roger. Your questions seem very reasonable to me. I feel that when most people 'think' of Buddhism, the images of Leonard's experiences on Mt. Baldy don't come to mind. Thinking of a stricter lifestyle doesn't seem so out of order, at all... without any alternative explanations, reading/hearing the variety of ways in which Leonard's time was spent does create a kind of cognitive dissonance.

Would you be more likely to leave your own neighbourhood and spend some time at Mt. Baldy ? It seems there are trade-offs, even so, with the rigors of the practices there... ending in, "If you've still got the time and energy for other things , go ahead... ~ just be where you need to be at 3 AM ."


~ Lizzy