Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

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lizzytysh
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by lizzytysh »

There we go with those ivory towers, again :roll: ... with platitudes scattered on the ground beneath them :wink: .

Then, too, I guess the resident, expert critiquers will suffice :wink: ... pending permission :) .

You're told, you listen.

You read, you learn.

You do, you understand.
Meanwhile, yes... different learning styles, though listening, reading, and doing can all result in learning. Generally, the more that are used concurrently, the deeper the learning, of course.


~ Lizzy
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by Byron »

The important word in there is 'understanding.' That is the critical leap in a person's accumulation of life's lessons. I know a lot of people who have learned a lot of stuff, but most of them would have difficulty in understanding what they have learned. To look at two opposing political parties we can learn what they stand for and more importantly, what they don't stand for. Being able to understand their particular ethos is the hard part. One has to delve a hell of a lot deeper than just learning about them.
We learn right from wrong. Then we spend a lifetime trying to understand why there are gradations in the 'greys' and 'shadows' of morality.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by lizzytysh »

Byron ~

I'm so impressed. Life 101.

If only I could afford to buy and read the other two books to get a simple question answered, but then I guess the quest for understanding must be a solitary one. Asking questions seems to not be the way to go... perhaps, too pedestrian in the scheme of things.

I wonder if there's anything there that might help people sort amongst the shades of grey as to various reasons why people write poetry... and whether commenting on the heart or impact of it has any value.

Is there anything amidst the pages on judging and the morality issues surrounding it?



~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by Manna »

I'm not sure how to exactly define learning, but I have had a few ed courses, and they try to teach a few things about it. Something like "a change in behaviour due to experience" is an ok starting place. What do you think?
Hmm, no I don't like it. I don't like that it's so external - that it defines learning that one person can see in another. Does it work as an internal thing? Does it tell another person what learning is for him? What is learning for me? Can I tell someone? Not everything that happens in the mind is manifest as behaviour, is it? I don't know. Can you call a thought or an idea behaviour? Well, there's some big thinka-typa for you.

There are all kinds of levels to learning: memorization, understanding, application, assimilation... I don't remember them all. I don't know if one is better than any other - depends on what needs to happen, I guess. Lots of times you start with memorizing (times tables, alphabet...) and later learn to apply it, but I still don't understand why a particular symbol was chosen for certain sounds. Why does B say Buh? Why doesn't R say Guh?


^^
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And this little child said, "I am being have!"
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by Byron »

lizzytysh wrote:Byron ~
If only I could afford to buy and read the other two books to get a simple question answered, but then I guess the quest for understanding must be a solitary one. Asking questions seems to not be the way to go... perhaps, too pedestrian in the scheme of things.
I wonder if there's anything there that might help people sort amongst the shades of grey as to various reasons why people write poetry... and whether commenting on the heart or impact of it has any value.
Is there anything amidst the pages on judging and the morality issues surrounding it?
~ Lizzy
People play football/tennis/chess/amateur dramatics etc., because they want to. People write poetry because they want to. Writing poetry is similar to sculpture. Starting with a mass of material, chiselling away until the bare bones of the desired imagery are visible. No extraneous material is allowed because it detracts from the finished imagery. THAT is about as much as I can add. You don't 'cut to the chase,' but you cut to the Truth. Whatever that is?
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by lizzytysh »

People play football/tennis/chess/amateur dramatics etc., because they want to. People write poetry because they want to.
Yes... I agree. And the reasons that lie behind their wanting to write it are many.
You don't 'cut to the chase,' but you cut to the Truth. Whatever that is?
I agree with your sculpture analogy... though the finished form of sculptures and of poetry vary vastly. When you pose the question "Whatever that is?" I want to add, "And whoever's that is." I'm not trying to justify what some might consider to be 'bad' poetry; but Realities and Truths vary, as I know you know.

When I think of the sculpture analogy, I think of being in a sculpting class [the class issue still being a relevant factor] and the difference between the instructor stopping to look at a work-in-progress from differing angles, encouraging the student with what seems to be working and where some excess clay might be removed; another direction that some might be nudged; and other such refinements, regardless of the stage... or, maybe, even just pointing out that it seems a bit bulky here or there or sparse there or somewhere else... and how do they feel about moving things around a bit... welcoming them to try on their own and, if they want any suggestions, a willingness to give them. Comparing that scenario to working at an entry-level Sculpture 101 or 102 class and having the instructor come by and start pushing and probing the clay into other areas, slicing some off with the sculpting tool, and standing back, saying, "Now there you go... isn't that better?" A picture of a fallen face and slumped shoulders comes to mind, with the student replying, "Yeah, I guess it does... but I was really wanting to do it myself." Or, "I know it didn't look as good as it could, yet... but I was getting there." Or, "I really had something else in mind. It was of my dog and my dog had put on a lot of weight before he died, and the way I was moving the clay was the way I remembered him... and it was almost there. I wish you'd have asked me first what my intention was." A lot of different ideas come to mind. Still, the idea of agreement seems so integral. Signing up for a class is both an explicit and implicit agreement as to a certain degree of interactions. Still, there's a more subtle level of agreement that occurs, even there. It's the difference between the student's feeling empowered or disempowered.

For people who aren't published writers or poets or playwrights, coming to a site and a section such as this can be very intimidating. Garnering the courage to post something they've written can be monumental. Finally doing it, and then being left to feel invisible or ridiculed or having what they've written be hijacked and handed back in 'better' form, can range from totally disheartening to angering to gut-wrenching. There may be a lot more to it, but it seems to me that the mere matters of agreement and respect go a long way to making for a fruitful exchange.

I don't fancy myself a poet critic, so the concrete suggestions relating to the mechanics of poetry are unlikely to ever come from me. However, if a person wants to know how 'the common man or woman' might perceive what they've written, I qualify as one of them, and I can tell them how it impacted me. I'll never pretend for it to be more than that. None of this, however, deprives that feedback of merit. It just needs to be understood in its own and 'proper' context.

Your "Why be normal?" portion of your signature also makes a point.

It occurred to me, with regard to my and Red Poppy's exchanges that the likelihood is probably much higher with someone who has written a novel or novella or piece of fiction or a play that their goal is to eventually get it... or a collection of them... published. I would guess that his peers who have engaged at these levels of writing really have had the goal of being published. Poetry, as a whole, I feel has tended to be a more personal form of expression; and the goals that come with writing thoughts, feelings, and ideas in poetic form are likely to vary substantially from those of someone who undertakes to write literature, such as novels and plays.


~ Lizzy
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by Byron »

lizzytysh wrote:It occurred to me, with regard to my and Red Poppy's exchanges that the likelihood is probably much higher with someone who has written a novel or novella or piece of fiction or a play that their goal is to eventually get it... or a collection of them... published. I would guess that his peers who have engaged at these levels of writing really have had the goal of being published. Poetry, as a whole, I feel has tended to be a more personal form of expression; and the goals that come with writing thoughts, feelings, and ideas in poetic form are likely to vary substantially from those of someone who undertakes to write literature, such as novels and plays.~ Lizzy
Obviously I can't answer for Red Poppy, but I would imagine that there is a small human element of wanting to be officially accepted as a writer/poet, if one has spent a lot of time reading and writing poetry etc., especially when seeing one's own 'peer' group achieving that rewarding level, of having 'their' work published. But I speak as one of many who have yet to have any work published. (Except for a couple of magazine articles, newspaper letters, and college contributions :) )
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by lizzytysh »

Obviously I can't answer for Red Poppy, . . .
You're right and neither can I.
. . . but I would imagine that there is a small human element of wanting to be officially accepted as a writer/poet, if one has spent a lot of time reading and writing poetry etc., especially when seeing one's own 'peer' group achieving that rewarding level, of having 'their' work published.
I agree, and would suggest that this could vary between a small human element and a large human element. Leonard and his cohorts back in his university and his other writing days had the goal of wanting to be 'great' writers and to stand the test of time [again, Leonard's VW analogy adds to that]. I wish I could remember the exact quote regarding the former, but it's mentioned somewhere :? ; and in the video ["I Am A Hotel" was it?], he comments about all the photos he's made it a point of having taken of himself, with posterity in mind.

Mine is at about the same level as yours... some theatre/art/live performance/minor-book reviews in two, separate newspapers; no "publishing" goals, though, really; and nothing major in print. I think I wrote one letter to the editor once :lol: . If I were putting a lot of serious energy into the endeavour, amidst peers doing the same in the same or similar arenas, however; I think I would want that satisfaction that is suggestive of permanence in the public realm.


~ Lizzy
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by Manna »

Depending on how you think about the word publish, this forum could count as a publication. It's not one to put on a resume, I know, but it's still getting your work out there. I have next to no desire at all to officially publish what I write. I just want to show those close to me. Some I only show my husband, but I still think of that as a publication. If someone besides me has seen it, it's probably as published as it's going to get. :lol:

But I'm not a poet, not a musician.
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by lizzytysh »

Hi Manna ~

Good points. For me, this forum is officially public, yet somehow falls more on the side of private... especially this particular section. So, I guess semi-public/semi-private, whichever your choice. More incidental than primary to the cause of poetry writing. I think it was the Atlantic Monthly site that was suggested, that I would consider to be "primary" and "public," as it's stated purpose is critiqueing, presumably [? ~ don't know as I haven't visited there] for purposes of publishing. I guess that, based on the fact that the Atlantic Monthly publishes poetry... and employs rigid standards in its selection process.

From the way you've referenced your music experience and interests, it seems you are a musician; though you may be making the distinction of not being a paid one. Likewise, it seems you have the potential of being a "poet," though I've no idea at what point one is considered to have officially crossed that line. Is publishing a criteria? Is volume... if so, what's the cut-off between poet and non-poet?


~ Lizzy
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by Alan Alda »

Hey Manna~ I can relate to your thoughtful reasoning(s). It reminded me of the poem below.

***chomp***
purpose served

cheers
Last edited by Alan Alda on Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by lizzytysh »

Hi Manna ~

For me, this section of the forum would have to be considered in the "vanity publishing" realm, as anything posted here requires no one's official approval. Now, if it's taken from here and placed elsewhere, it might at that point be considered "published," in its more rigid sense. Here, suggestions for change can be taken or left, and the poem will remain within its posting. With a published piece, the suggestions for change will likely be taken or negotiated, or the piece will be left and not make it into the publication. Hence... those notorious 'disputes' we hear about between writers, editors, and publishers... with outcomes in both directions.

In the above sense, with what Jarkko opts to post [which includes his editing] in his official part of the Files, it might be considered "published."

Those are some distinctions I would make. As I go, I'm trying to sort through my feelings about all this and assign a particular set of words [not to be mistaken as a poetry attempt :wink: , as the words come together as I go and certainly not in poetic form :shock: ] to each feeling and nuance of feeling, as I consider the whole and its parts.

The Internet has changed all of our lives to such a huge degree that many things we understood in other contexts and took for granted, now have to be rethought and rethunk again.


~ Lizzy
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by Manna »

I'm not a musician because I don't know much about music. Everything I play, I play by ear. I don't know what a diminished fifth is. I know that I play some chords that I can't name just because they sound good (or bad in a teeth-grinding-hurts-so-good way). I also don't tend to enjoy performing; I just want to sit in a circle jamming with pals. I think it's the same with poetry - I don't know much. I've taken a couple writing classes, but everything I write, I write by gut. I don't know what the difference between a stanza and a strophe is, and I don't read lit journals. And I can't write for crap in form.

I'm in science - that's my job. That's where I'm highly trained, where I know the jargon, where I'm capable of accomplishment. I know that you don't need to be highly trained, jargon-charged, or even capable :lol: :wink: to call yourself a poet or a musician, I'm just not persuing those careers. But the world and the future never close, [she shrugs] not yet.

Laurie - thanks for the poem. Who wrote it?
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by Alan Alda »

Manna~

I confess 8)

(sorry, shoulda put this on the posting...)
L
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Re: Poetry Writing Ideas ~ MFA PROGRAMS & ON CRITICISM

Post by lizzytysh »

I'm not a musician because I don't know much about music. Everything I play, I play by ear. I don't know what a diminished fifth is. I know that I play some chords that I can't name just because they sound good (or bad in a teeth-grinding-hurts-so-good way). I also don't tend to enjoy performing; I just want to sit in a circle jamming with pals. I think it's the same with poetry - I don't know much. I've taken a couple writing classes, but everything I write, I write by gut. I don't know what the difference between a stanza and a strophe is, and I don't read lit journals. And I can't write for crap in form.
... and I know you must know as well as I do how many legitimate, recorded 'musicians' [though not the actual number] fit that profile. For purposes of applying the term ~ Is playing by something other than ear a prereq? I don't think so. Is being recorded a prereq? I don't think so. Is performing for others a prereq? I don't think so. I think there are probably a number of reclusive musicians out there... unable, to date, to get past their crippling stage fright. They are still sitting in a circle jamming with pals, with whom they feel safe.

Look at how well you write for how 'little' you 'know' 8) ... as an anecdotal thought, look at how much world-class poetry, lasting now for centuries, preceded the compilation of writing manuals or lit journals; music theory or music sheets. Remember hearing of times when oral traditions were the way?

So is career, vocation, or avocation part of what is prerequisite? Where did I put that Glossary of Literary Terms, anyway? Did Joni step in to and out of being a musician when she felt unfettered and alive, playing on the streets of Paris for free? Or is it once a musician, always a musician? Or did it depend on whether she did it before or after her first paid performance or recording? Not yet a musician, if/when she did it before... still a musician, if she did it after? I'm phrasing these questions somewhat facetiously, but there's within them a kernel of sincere curiousity as to what's considered legit usage of the terms and what's not. It can't possibly center on cash changing hands... can it :shock: ?

As time and the world go on and your never-closing future unfolds, please let us know if and when you have your first poetry reading. I believe I'd catch a flight north for that.


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
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