Gethsemane-me

[mat james]

Gethsemane-me
(This bleeding god-drop; part two )

Blood-red
the frightened forehead
bleeds from this to That
- god-drop to Vat

his companions
slip-sleep away
unaware...
of his despair

wine-read
that bleeding god-drop
casks aground...

...they say he kneeled
to pray,
I think
his legs gave way

“Am I me and You
schizoid on the mystic See
suffering in Gethsemane ?”

I never kneel to pray
but sometimes
my legs give way

blood-red the god-drop bleeds
from this to That
vino or vat ?

oozing in the garden

a few genes on from eden
a Stephen’s-stone’s-throw
from paradise...

they say he kneeled
to pray,
I felt
his legs give way ..


Matj

[Steven]

Mat,

Whether or not the kneeling is consciously intended, that genuflecting in a humbler posture
is the arrival point, seems to be most important and is something I think might be being communicated by your poem. Also, the legs giving way as a metaphor for
otherwise yielding comes across nicely to me.

[mat james]

Hi Steven,
Thanks for your response.
It seems to me that in the story of this mans life, this moment,

is the arrival point

of being human, deeply vulnerable in the garden of Gethsemane. Weakened, tired, on the verge of capitulation and on his knees, through choice or just worn out, he was his most "human" and perhaps his most accessible. It is this quality/position of vulnerability that strangely draws me in.
Without this "moment" of absolute despair, of “sweating blood”, of doubt and a desire for an exit strategy (“take this cup from me”) the story, to me would be a bit shallow.
Doubt and loss are very powerful reminders of our humanity.
So I suppose, Steven, it is more about “falling” to ones knees in the grinding mixer of life, than “humbly kneeling”, for me.
To “humbly kneel” is to hold a perspective.
To “fall”, is to lose all perspective.
Maybe it is to give in abandoning-ly, helplessly and desperately.

Strangely enough, this “moment” is probably my favorite moment in the whole Jewish Christian Myth.

Thanks again for your response,
Matj

[Steven]

Hi Mat,

I appreciate your clarifications, especially as to why the "moment" is meaningful to you.
I wonder, though, if a "fall" in this sense is truly loosing perspective; seems it is, perhaps,
releasing him from pre-existing constructs/perspectives and limitations in furtherance of a more expansive perspective. "Doubt and and loss are very powerful reminders of our humanity," yes.

[jimbo]

He fell like we all fall.and we are forgiven for that if we ask,But he died for our sins.so that they may be forgiven.
that death would be no more.

Jesus was human He was the word.of the LORD
WE are the spirit.......................
trust in him................have faith.

[mat james]

Maybe so jimbo,
though I consider him a man.
I'm not into all that "died for our sins" mumbo jumbo.
But this is is not mumbo jimbo jumbo;

He fell like we all fall

I would say that is closer to the crux of the poem

and we are forgiven for that if we ask

We don't need to be forgiven.
A holy "hello" is good enough for this creature.
Matj

[jimbo]

Ye Ijust should have quoted thewords from one of Leonards songs.....................

i walked into an empty church. had no placel eft to go........
when the sweetest voice i ever heard whisperedto my soul........
you dont have to be forgiven .for loving me so much.........
Its written in the scriptures. its written there in blood.................................



im not here to win arguments but friends regards James

[mat james]

nicely put jimbo!
I argue/discuss with all my friends. If I or they don't (prowl around concepts) or cant, the energy dissapates .
Thanks for the opportunity to dissagree .
(or at least to hold a similar yet different perspective on our mythical tradition)
"friendly regards", Matj

[jimbo]

But remember when He fell ...He was carrying our Cross not His.

and HEwas born a Jew and died as the first Christian............and ressurected as the first............

This is not a Myth . the Alpha and the Omega the first and the last. the beggining and the end.

And His Way is the only way.His truth .words.are the only Way .to His Kingdom.(not of this world)HEAVEN..............
Eternal life.............

and im not a holy creature.............i just have Faith

regards James

and I dont speak mumbo jumbo...............

[Manna]

Matj, this is labeled part two. Did I miss part one?
M

[mat james]

and I dont speak mumbo jumbo...............

With no due respect;
It's mumbo-jumbo to me jimbo.

And Manna,
I haven't posted part 1. I'll see if I can find it for you.
Regards, Matj

[Manna]

and we are forgiven for that if we ask

We don't need to be forgiven.
A holy "hello" is good enough for this creature.
Matj

Here I go butting my schnoz in where she don't belong, but I was thinking about this and wondering if allowed may be a better word than forgiven. The universe has conspired for something like forever for the sake of our existence, and we need forgiveness? Can I even say the universe conspired? I don't think it's conscious, it just is.

Well, I need to go water my bonsai.

[mat james]

I was quoting Jimbo, Manna.
He seems to echo "Fire and brimstone"

I don't get into guilt trips that are designed to keep us subservient.
I don't even go for phrases like "Lord" or "King".

My god is a tiny thing.
He hasn't got that sort of ego that demands guilt and forgiveness from a friend.
Every-one else's god is bigger than mine.

Matj

[Manna]

Yeah, I know you were quoting Jimbo. I was thinking about what you'd both said, sorry my post wasn't clear.

I'm still working on what to believe. I don't think I believe in Hell, but if I don't, how can I believe in Heaven? I had a thought a bit ago (part of that BoM - bivouac business) that seemed to me like when we're alive, our survival compells us to compete with each other. That competition drives us in opposite direction from love and generosity. When we're dead, we don't have to survive any more, so there's less to get in the way of love. Taking this to an extreme allowed me the thought that when I die, I'll know all those crazy things I want to know, like what it is to live every life. All the great ones, all the torturous ones, the provincial ones, murder from all sides, saintliness. I don't want to get into the details, but I know I want that knowledge, crazy as it may sound. I may get that knowledge from an ultimate unity, which is what being dead may be like. Can it be scary and comforting at the same time?

I've never heard anyone else say these things, but I can't believe they're my own unique thoughts.

... it's late, I'm still at work, and these thoughts make me a little car sick.

[lizzytysh]

Hi Manna ~

I'm not sure if anyone else has expressed these thoughts before, at least not this way. If they have, I don't recall having them. However, this particular progression feels unique and sure makes sense to me:

I had a thought a bit ago (part of that BoM - bivouac business) that seemed to me like when we're alive, our survival compells us to compete with each other. That competition drives us in opposite direction from love and generosity. When we're dead, we don't have to survive any more, so there's less to get in the way of love.

~ Lizzy