POETS ~ What kind of feedback do you want? CRITIQUES

[lizzytysh]

I recently bought a book titled "Not Feathers Yet / A Beginner's Guide to the Poetic Life" by Lola Haskins. It seems a perfect title, and I bought it because I would love to be able to write poetry.

The beginning of the section "Other People" is titled "Just Sharing." It's worth repeating here because it captures what I've seen go on here for a long time. There are fewer who contribute now and I feel that may be because their offering was critiqued so harshly and severely that, even if not with that one poem, after several or a number of them, they became disheartened about sharing them and finally stopped. Even in lesser situations, some of the hurt and hard feelings have been quite evident in various ways. This portion seems to capture the dynamics that make the difference in that. Some variations of the suggestions mentioned here might be useful if tried by contributors. If not, perhaps, others just keeping in mind some of the ideas expressed in here can be helpful. She meanders into some other issues which I've gone ahead and included, but my focus is on the first three paragraphs. I know for certain that some people come here simply to share what they've heartfelt written. Others are more interested in critiques, suggestions, and revisions according to what the feedback they've received. It really depends on the person who's posting what they've written.

Just Sharing

Unless you're writing strictly for yourself, at some point you'll want to show your work to other people. It's imprtant you tell the other person why you're doing that. If you want comments, say so, but if what you're really after is to share something you've written, then - especially if the person you're thinking of is close to you - be sure to make that clear.

When I was in my middle thirties, I started sending poems I thought were finished to my father. Each time I did that, Daddy would suggest radical changes. He'd been the editor of his college literary magazine, and he was trying to be useful. I understood his motivation, but his comments hurt my feelings anyway. And besides, his critiques weren't even helpful, because he came from a different era and our editorial eyes were completely different. These exchanges cast a shadow over our whole relationship until I finally realized that I should have made it clear. I was only looking to share. Once I explained that, we both relaxed and everything was fine again.

But just saying you don't want comments may not be enough information. It may actually throw your reader into a panic. "If she doesn't want suggestions, then what does she want?" It can help a lot if you just say something like, "I just wanted you to see how much I cared about Aunt Mary," or, "This was a beautiful moment, so I wnated to share it with you," or "I know I've looked down lately; maybe this will help you understand." Once she knows what you want, she can relax and enjoy your poems. Besides, setting all that up ahead of time is nice for you too, because it lets you sidestep the disappointment you may feel when what she comes up with wasn't what you wanted to hear at all.

Now it may happen that no matter what you do, you will find that someone close to you doesn't seem to understand. Maybe it's your wife or husband - let's say it's your husband who brings up every chance he gets that you're wasting your time, and that if you really want to write, you should try writing something that might sell. Or maybe the problem is that your husband is so used to reading for information that he finds it impossible - no matter how he tries - to understand what you're trying to do. After a while, you'll begin to notice even your most beautiful lines cringing when he looks at them. All of which may leave you feeling frustrated, even angry. But let me point something out that, if you believe me, will save you all this twisted energy.

Suppose you've been dating a mason. Suppose then that he takes you on a tour of the jobs he's proudest of. The house he slows down in front of, which to you looks exactly like every other house on its block, is an exceptionally fine pointing job to him. The side of the "Wal-Mart" which looks like just another Walmart to you, represents months of his tapping bricks into place so they're perfectly aligned with the string, all the while leaving behind so little mortar on the surfaces that the wall looks as if it might have been built by machine. Now be honest. No matter how you try to work up some enthusiasm, it's going to be clear to him that you don't get it. Think how he's feeling at the end of this, as the two of you pull into his driveway.

"Or... suppose instead that you're a guy and your new love interest is a sailor, who spends all her time either working on her boat or thinking about it - how she can fabricate a part to fix the macerator or the winch that sticks, how she might trim the jinny next time so she can get an extra half-knot out of that following wind. You may think in principle that billowing sails and blue seas are poetic, but in practive what happens is that every time she starts in on one of her speeches, you keep smiling because you love her, but your inner face goes blank.

The point I've been trying to make, which I'm sure you get by now, is that the mason/sailor isn't going to change you and you aren't going to change the mason/sailor. The sub-point I'm trying to make is that that's okay. If you can stop wanting him/her to be more like you, maybe he/she will be more inclined to relax and let you be who you are. What you'll find after a while is that sharing your work with your partner-not-like-you will get easier, because you'll have stopped expecting from him/her what he/she can't give. And in turn he/she will be free to be proud of you, because you'll have stopped projecting the sort of discontent that naturally tended to stiffen him/her both against poetry and, by association, against you.

~ Lizzy

[Jimmy O'Connell]

Lizzie...
I have made a sort of response in REFUSAL post.

Thank you for being such a great reader!!
We need them too....
Jimmy

[lizzytysh]

Hi Jimmy ~

I appreciate the points you're making both here and in the thread of your poem. When I'm speaking of what I've seen occur here, I'm covering a very long span of time, all the way back to when the Member's Poetry section was created, as poems were showing up everywhere, all over the Forum. Now, they're concentrated in this and the Other Poetry sections.

It appears from your writing that you've been writing seriously for awhile, quite awhile. The disparity comes, I think, when some consider this Member's Poetry section to be a mini 'poetry-site' ~ the latter being more about sharing poetry for the sake of putting what you've written out there for critiqueing. Fair game in those situations, as that's understood going in. There are a number of poetry sites like this, where the goal is to hone one's skills and there is a wide variety of skilled and unskilled feedback available there.

That's clearly not what has been the norm here, however. Here, there has been a lot of heart sharing through words arranged in poetry form. Even there, some might question whether the form 'rises' to the level of one or another person's idea of what constitutes poetry.

Conversely, in a minority of contributions I've seen here, the writers have actually sought, or at least welcomed, constructive criticism [what the nature of criticism ought to be about to begin with, as I see it].

When I read and comment on poetry, my comments focus on what I like and why... with a rare foray into what I feel might be some constructive criticism. If the writer finds any of my comments useful, that's great. If what they've written touches me, I want them to know that. That, in itself, I feel can be useful. If what I've suggested is found useful, all the better. I don't happen to consider this section as a poetry class, however, so I don't approach it that way... if I did, I'd be asking a whole lot of questions .

It doesn't matter whether it's you or someone else [and I don't feel comments here have been so severe that they would crush you, nor that you feel impeded in any way by them]... I feel that readers might want to be cognizant of where the writer is coming from when they contribute what they've written. It seems to me that this can generally be extrapolated pretty accurately through the nature and style of their piece.

When I have time, I'll add a couple other sections she's written that address other aspects of sharing.


~ Lizzy

[Manna]

When I put a poem up here, it's kind of like giving someone a gift. I'm a selfish gift giver - I find things that I like and give them to people, rather than trying to find something that I think that person will like. If we like the same things, the gift-giving goes more smoothly.

When I give a gift, it's not up to me to say what the receiver should do with it. If I give you a shawl, I can't say to you, "This is for when it's chilly because you need to cover your shoulders." I can give you something, and you may regift it, you may throw it away, put it on your mantel, ask for another when this one wears out, erect a shrine to it... How can I say what I want you to do with it? I'm giving it to you, do with it as you like. Use that shawl as a diaper if you're so inclined.

As for poetry, I have another site, a poetry/writing site, I use when I want critiquing and suggestions. But none of you is there as far as I can tell. Critique, personal response, interpretation, suggestions, kudos or slamming - I'll take what I can get.

[KjeXXXer]

I post writings on this page usually to receive feedback in terms of what's good, what's bad, what would you suggest, and so forth. The worst is when I post a thing, and nothing happens. I'd like any feedback, good, bad or ugly. If you say the text is shit, I will fight back, but it's all good.

Leonard speaks of the circle of poets in Montreal, where they would come and have their poems slaughtered and demolished.
Sounds nice to me!

I want to improve, to be better at this mystery called poetry (how poetic of me ).

[lizzytysh]

Yes, I know the group you mean, Axel. It was reportedly brutal and its members all had very real aspirations in the world of literature and poetry and were ambitious in that. The group was not for the faint-hearted nor for people whose interest was simply to share their heart or aspects of their life experience. These men were committed to do everything they could to write pieces that would stand the test of time, decades if not centuries. One could say it was a different kind of focus group. Even then, will all of that understanding of purpose, there was a permanent alienation that resulted between two of them. I would love to have been able to just sit and observe such a high-powered group.

Yes, Axel. You do seem open to constructive criticism and willing to explore alternatives.


~ Lizzy

[lizzytysh]

Hi Manna ~

The same as with Axel, you are very open to thoughtful, constructive criticism... but it still doesn't mean that you're going to about-face just because something is suggested. For me, "thoughtful, constructive criticism" includes balance. You also seem to recognize the difference between here and the poetry site you visit specifically for the purpose of improvement.

I don't know if this thread will just drift down and out of sight, but I would like to see it remain within view, just so people can state their preferences on this [rather universal, it seems] issue. That way, they don't have to preface every contribution with what they would really prefer to see happen.

You're funny with all your gift possibilities, Manna .


~ Lizzy

[KjeXXXer]

I think what would completely awesome would be if I could get Leonard to read through all the trite I've written and just pick it apart. It would hurt, but it would be a sweet, sweet pain.

[jimbo]

THANK you for all your kind words Liz and this piece here is good..and i dont care what anyone
wants to say bout my humble writings.

[lizzytysh]

Here it is... and ironic that you were the last to post on the thread, Jimbo.

You do care what they say, when they say it unkindly. You also make no bones about your feeling that your offerings are humble ones.


~ Lizzy

[KjeXXXer]

Nonexistent feedback is the worst, though. I don't mean to moan and wine, but that's what this thread is about.

[lizzytysh]

Yes, Axel, I agree that no response at all may be the worst. Feeling invisible can be a dreadful place to be .

NowFound the book! Decided to add this on to this thread vs. a new one... so all can be, hopefully, taken into account concurrently, consecutively, however, but at least more than one dynamic considered. The book, as noted in the beginning of this thread, is "Not Feathers Yet" / A Beginner's Guide to the Poetic Life, and is written by Lola Haskins.

ONE-ON-ONE CRITIQUES

Once you've decided you're ready to go beyond sharing, you'll find that outside advice can be very helpful. Just be careful who you get it from. You might think someone who writes like you would be the best, but you may find that the comments of an open-minded someone who writes to a completely different drummer may be even more useful than your soul-mate's, because your soul-mate may share your prejudices. What I'm trying to say here is that the fit-the-fee-into-my-slippers part may be more important than the is-this-person-like-me part. One more thing to keep in mind--whoever she is...if the person you share with does nothing but praise, she may be a good friend, but she isn't going to help you get better.

I'm living proof of how helpful the right someone different from you can be. I have a friend, Sydney Wade, whose work is almost my opposite--her poems are lovely, quirky, and cerebral. But because she understands my shoes and I hers, we've been good for each other. She's showed me what language can do, and maybe I've showed her a little about emotional risk-taking.

Obviously, it doesn't always work that way. I've had it happen that the comments of people who don't write like me did me no good at all, because it was obvious that what they really wanted was for me to write like them. A case in point this way might have been Billy Collins who, when he was Poet Laureate, came to Ocala to read. In the Q & A afterwards, someone asked him how she could tell if a poem is good. He didn't hesitate a moment. "Well," he said, "You'll find that nearly all good poems begin x-way and end y-way." That's true of the way he writes, and he does it very well, but I couldn't help wondering at the time what effect he as a teacher would have on a younger me.

In the beginning, and maybe forever, you may find it helpful to pass your poems by a friend who reads but who isn't as sophisticated as you. You won't learn technique that way, but what you will learn is gold--whether what you've written will reach the general reader. Along those lines, my adult daughter, who reads a lot, but not poetry, has been hugely helpful to me.

Of course, if your poems are going to clarify and improve--and we all know that the only way to get better at tennis or any other sport is to challenge ourselves by playing against someone at least as good as we are--at some point you'll need technical as well as general feedback. But again, don't be quick to jump. Consulting the most published person you can find may not be as useful as you'd imagine.

Before you expose your tender work, see if you think the person you have in mind can see from more than one point of view. If you think she can, before you ask her for comments, be sure to separate yourself emotionally from your poem, because if you can't do that, you'll find yourself defending your lines as if they were your children and nothing useful will reach you.

Now if it turns out that the person you've asked responds in such a way that tells you you were wrong about his/her openness, go ahead and write off his/her reaction. In a similar context, when I get turned down by magazines I'd like to be in (because they're famous) but whose editorial slant I don't actually like, of course there's a twinge, but the twinge comes with a message. It says "You idiot--what would it have meant if they'd taken this stuff--that you belong in a category of writing you don't care for in the first place?" So, in your case, if someone whose work you don't like doesn't like yours, so what?

Carrying through to the next section:

LOCAL WRITING GROUPS

When you're ready to put your poems out beyond your immediate circle, try looking for a writing group in your community. Belonging to a group can shore you up if for no other reason than that for those few hours you'll be among people who understand why you do what you do. That in itself will be a relief if your work and/or family life is made up of people who think you're weird for putting a lot of time into anything creative that doesn't pay money. Second, attending a group that meets regularly puts a little healthy pressure on you to produce something. Otherwise it's easy not to write much, if at all. "Who's going to read this anyway," you'll be likely to tell yourself when the going gets tough, and you'll end up doing errands. Besides, if you're ever going to improve, you'll need the practice a group will stimulate. We all do. Need practice, that is.

To find groups in your area, look in the newspaper, check community bulletin boards, or ask at the public library. To find a good group, here are some things to keep in mind. First of all, you want one slanted towards poetry--at the very least,you want it to include several poets. That's because groups made up mostly of fiction writers tend not to be of much help to their poet members. You also want a group that's not the extension of its leader's ego (believe me, this happens). And you want one that includes at least a few experienced writers, so you can get advice on more than one level. If you think a given group might work for you, before you join, sit in on a meetings. If you aren't comfortable there, even if it looks good, try another one.

The next section:

ON-LINE GROUPS

If for some reason a physical group isn't an option for you--you don't have time, there isn't anything locally, or you're shy but you still want feedback, look on-line. There are lost of websites (sponsored by magazine like The Atlantic or by private organizations like Alsop Review) on which you can post poems for comment. Lurk for a while to get an idea of whether the tone and level suit you before you jump in.

Actually, even if lurking's all you do, on-line poetry sites can be useful because the comments on other people's poems can help you think about your own. The downside to on-line, of course, is that there's no quality control. Still, I'm sure you'll figure out that when most of the comments resemble "Right on, sister," or "Keep that stuff coming," you're wasting your time.

If you do get involved with a web site, be aware that on-line life has the same potential pitfall for poets that cafe life had before it. It's seductive to hang around drinking wine and talking. But talking doesn't get art done. You have to be alone for that.

[Red Poppy]

"..and i dont care what anyone
wants to say bout my humble writings."
jimbo

"You do care what they say, when they say it unkindly."
Lizzytish

You do jimbo, it's just that you don't know that you do.
RP

[jimbo]

where rare r u feckin NOW