Hallelujah Blesses the Virginia Tech Tragedy

[Birdonawire]

I agree with almost everything you have said Tchocolatl, but I think you may have misunderstood one of my points. When I mentioned the phrase 'It is not the gun that kills, but the person holding it,' I was merely quoting (obviously not clearly enough) what I have heard the people who support the very loose gun laws of America, and particularly the NRA, repeatedly say to support their own weak arguments. This is not my sentiment but a reflection of an over-used, outdated and shamefully weak argument for something so life affecting. I hope this makes what I have said a little clearer.

Eric.

[Tchocolatl]

I understood - and quoted - that it was a fallacious argumentation of advocates of the "Freedom to bear arms", and obviously, in the quote, you are not one of them.

Thanks to have bring this non-sense here. It speaks for itself in favour of your sentiment (and mine) about the loose gun laws.

P.S. : When I say in my previous message that some people are worshipping cruel little god in their feable mind, please understand that it is a symbol of their sickness - not a kind of religious war.

[hydriot]

To make it worse, in Florida now, if you feel threatened, you have the right to fire.

There is now a lesser version of that twisted logic in the UK. A person can be arrested under the Harassment Act merely if another person FEELS harassed. The person accused does not need to have actually done anything at all. This creates a field day for the paranoid and for the vindictive.

Mind you, I had an interesting idea. Can one have the false accuser arrested under the Harassment Act for making one feel harassed by the imminent use of the Harassment Act against oneself?

[hydriot]

No other song could have been more appropriate.

How about If It Be Your Will?

[Tchocolatl]

Simply because I don't believe that this is the will of God.

In my research to understand suffering and give a meaning to it in life, beside looking into buddhist tradition, I also read a book by a Jewish rabbi who wrote it because many people have asked him why, yes why, if G_d loved them, does He allow them to suffer, particularly good Jews who are following his law. The rabbi scratched his head night after night after nigh then he finally came to the conclusion that this is not G_d which does this. It happens by accident. So to speak.

In the Catholic point of view, I learned that the Love of God for human beings is infinite and includes the Free Will for them - which means that they are free. Free to choose between Love of God and anything else. Like mature people. Love of God includes love for any human beings, including ourself. So when somebody uses his/her free will to act out of Love, this is not an act of God, this is a human decision.

And finally, this man of 75, at the end of his life, maybe, but ey! that did risk and lost his life to save the many lifes of young people full of potential and with all their future in front of them, well, I can not but think, that this is a God damn act of Love dramatic and sad and beautiful and huge an act of Love with one of the biggest "L" that Love can be.

As Love for me is nothing soppy but sometimes is lived in sufferings, like life itself, when one is true, well, I can't help but think in this case :

"Love is not a victory march It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah"

[blonde madonna]

Love what you said about love Tchoc.

Can't believe Bush can keep saying things about this tragic event except what really needs to be said.

In Australia we have had some shocking massacres Hoddle Street and Port Arthur (years ago now but we don't forget) and our government's response was to tighten up gun laws, it seems a fairly sane response.

[blonde madonna]

Went to buy the paper and this horrible event is still front page and I am so disturbed by it I can't acurately identify my feelings. I do have a problem with the way the media covers things like this and thinking on the topic of this thread I think it is crass they way they use a song like Hallelujah to their own ends. Wouldn't songs like 'Kids with Guns', 'Woke up this morning' and 'I don't like Mondays' be more appropriate (and I mean that ironically).

[Kush]

I'm sorry I cannot think of two more inappropriate lines for the victim's kin to hear popping out from national TV on the day of the tragedy than

'As for me, all I've ever seemed to learn from love
Is how to shoot at someone who outdrew you.'

I sincerely hope whichever version was aired did not contain the above. somehow seems more suited to the crazy killer's life.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/virgin ... index.html

[Tchocolatl]

Kush, this is exactly what those mass murderers are doing. Not only them but so many men alone who are killing their mate because they want to quit them. And serial killers too. Shoud we keep quiet and be nice as lambs and do not talk about this? I guess it is easy by now to know that I will say : let be sad about that sad-sad-sad for being sad leads to solve problem which will leads to joy. Sad in order to solve problem, not to make them worst by more violence - physical or psychological - and Unconsciousness.

Thanks blonde madonna.

You put on the table the role of the media in our society. As they are supposed to keep people informed in order that each individual can use its power in maximum in democracy, too often it turns into a circus which goals is to distract and make money. I think this is the case here.

Also there is an ethical question : Those guys are doing this because they know the media will do a big show with this based on the fascination for horror in the population. This one wanted to be the best by killing more people than those before him.

It would be appropriate that this fact could be taken into account : which means that no big show about the killer would be freely offered by media to make a criminal famous as a star. Instead, it should be put in force a new social agreement between population and media : Knowing this, a potential socially-frustrated-craving-for-being-recognized killer, would know it is not this way that he could acheive "fame". He will not have his reward, but in the contrary would sink in the complete social ignorance. Not his crime and his victims, but him. People would be informed, but not "entertained" by those crimes.

This is what people should do : write to governement and media to tell them respectfully that they don't want to be part of the show.

As for the songs, I read a quote by Leonard Cohen saying (more or less) that people who are changing religions for pop culture will be very deceived.

Since the mankind can be called a mankind they do something, a religious ritual of some sort, to cope with the death of their fellow human being. Now they are trying to do it with what they can in our culture of consommation: pop songs. At least they did not return to pre-mankind state. Great.

[Red Poppy]

Birdonawire - the number of appications for handgun icences in Ireland is at al all time high according to figures released yesteray. Whither thou (America) goest, there we will go!!!!

[Red Poppy]

Those guys are doing this because they know the media will do a big show with this based on the fascination for horror in the population

Bollocks!

[lizzytysh]

Didn't it used to be that Britain disallowed any criminals from writing books regarding their crimes, so that they could not benefit from it financially? I believe we've now adopted that same thing. However, I was also thinking that Britain disallowed the media blitzes surrounding these kinds of tragic events. They're put away and never heard about or from. I pray the rest of the world doesn't follow suit with regard to our handgun and automatic weapon laws!!

I felt it was inappropriate to put on the airwaves the Live footage and photos of this killer; especially disturbing is the photo of him with the barrel of the gun [pointed directly at the viewer] occupying so much of the foreground. Without a word, it makes it seeringly clear that this was the last vision many of these desperate people saw in their life. I feel it's horribly cruel to have these photos out there for the grieving families and other loved ones to have to see at this point. If at all, at least later.

I questioned the publishing of the killer's two plays; and I questioned even more the publishing of all the materials he sent to NBC. They are still part of the investigation; yet, it's for reasons beyond that. I cannot imagine that those left behind in the wake of this horror are prepared to process the diabolical [albeit clearly mental illness] that is evident everywhere in these materials. Our system failed the fallen, as well as the killer... now the system, to me, seems to be failing those who are deeply grieving their losses.

I've had to quit trying to read all there is to read about all of this. It's too overwhelming. I'm still trying to make it through the descriptions of each person who was killed. That much I do want to do; yet, after reading only two, I begin to feel overwhelmed, again.

Tchocolatl ~ thank you for the way you've expressed this. I've been struggling trying to find the exactly right words to honour this man's self-sacrifice and this does it, except for the "but ey!" which I'll remove in quoting it. His having been a Holocaust survivor even more poignantly enters into this; again, I'm not sure how to best express that, either.

And finally, this man of 75, at the end of his life, maybe, . . . that did risk and lost his life to save the many lifes of young people full of potential and with all their future in front of them, well, I can not but think, that this is a God damn act of Love dramatic and sad and beautiful and huge an act of Love with one of the biggest "L" that Love can be.

I agree that one cannot kill with roses; and it is those that need to replace the easy acquisition of hand and automatic guns in our society. Of course, it's a polyanna panacea to even consider; but as long as the mind and spirit are scrambling to understand even anything here, at least in that thought, they can find some rest.

Yes, you're right, Kush... that lyric would be particularly painful for people to hear; but its being there [and likely not being included... at least not in the segment I saw and heard] does not make the song any less appropriate for this situation. It is ironic, perhaps, that there is a line exactly suited to that of the killer... he clearly felt that he was 'outdrawn' in status, advantage, acceptance, or whatever by his victims. Even though he was also delusional regarding all of this; as people did so much to try to reach out to him, but his mental status precluded his ability to accept it... in the end, it seemed he tried to even the score.

I feel "If It Be Your Will" is a song that the survivors could 'hear better' a little further along in time. I've noticed how many of the victims have been described as being particularly Christian and/or spiritual, and how they lived their lives in genuine accordance with the ethical and moral principles. So many of them seemed focused in one way or another on improving the world... from the local level, to the national, to the international. I believe their survivors will come to trust in and rely on this very tenet of their faith that "If It Be Your Will" expresses. They are unlikely to ever find peace, otherwise.

The phrase that keeps repeating in my mind is that we never know the day or the hour. Depending on one's own spirituality, the long-view of karma might be considered [though I can't imagine that it would feel like anything less than acid into a raw wound, at this point]; or G~d's will; or horrific chance. That the killer was mentally ill couldn't possibly be any clearer... so these were the acts of an aberrant human.

This all is so desperately, desperately sad, sad, sad. Each one of these people deserve to be talked about as individuals, in the context of their being lost to the world. I'm thinking of the man from India who was an instructor, whose parents sold cars and property to finance his astronomically high cost of education. As soon as I think of him, others quickly follow.

I am still acutely aware, as well, that the 148 killed in Iraq on Tuesday increased to 160, as of this morning's report. The only difference is that I don't know their individual stories. A tragic loss of innocence worldwide.


~ Lizzy

[Red Poppy]

Isn't that the point, Lizzy, because the people in Iraq are far away their stories APPEAR to be less relevant in the West, The value put on life seems to be in proportion to the distance (physical and cultural) from ourselves.
This is not to demean the deaths in Virginia, simply to point out that life is cheap (and often very short) in developing countries.
And yet again the media is blamed!

[Red Poppy]

Tchololati - to expand on my short remark above.
Do you honestly believe that the sole driving force in the mind of the college killer was to make the news and the newspaper front pages? Come on, life is a little more complicated than that.
Using your logic, the newspapers/radio/tv should not report on wars either because they may be seen to be promoting one military agenda.
In truth the media (or parts of the media) have often been the only watchdogs over government and the military and the work of journalists has brought about great change for the better.

[lizzytysh]

Hi Red Poppy ~

I agree that this killer was far beyond an attention-seeker. With earlier concerns of suicide, as well as stalking of women, and the content of his writings, his thinking was long ago twisted. However, the element of guaranteed media blitz is not to be discounted, either. This is the nature of our society over here, and it's a given... so having their life guaranteed to be one of notoriety does seem to enter in there somewhere with these types. Still... it goes beyond that.

You're right that the media has done much to serve great purposes. I stand behind the value of NPR [National Public Radio] and PRI [Public Radio International] for probing and substantive reporting, as well as discovery and disclosure.

You're right that life in developing countries tends to be considered within those countries themselves to be presumably shorter, due to a wide variety of reasons. I consider Iraq and Iran as more developed than developing; yet, for some, the wartime/war zone aspects contextualizes those deaths somewhat differently. I still feel that on an individual level, loss of loved ones is just that. Culture may impact it to be processed in different ways, but when the individuals left behind try to sleep at night, and go through their days without their loved one[s], I don't believe they're any better able to do so than anyone else, anywhere else.


~ Lizzy