Book of Mercy #11-15

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

Manna wrote:The only way he’s talked about is the way to talk to each other, and he says this isn’t the way to talk to G-d, and then he says, how beautiful it is that we talk to G-d like this.
I think the only word he used in this prayer to write about the way we summon each other is the word "this". The word talk is not used for what we do to each other. That is not to say it is not part of this.

And Manna please give me a second chance with the past post now that I've removed those dastardly distracting D's
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

Leonard wrote:but it is not the way we call upon the Name.

I think that how we view this will and can change depending upon what we feel he means when he uses the word "we"

A Catholic might look at that and say that what he means is that we go on our knees, we cross ourselves and we say "In the Name of the Father, of the Son and the Holy Spirit" and then recite the Lord's Prayer

A Jew might look at that and say that what he means is that we begin each day with an eighteen part prayer in which we praise God, sanctify the Name and ask for personal blessings and blessings for all the world.

A Muslim might look at that and say that what he means is that we wash ourselves and our place of prayer and that we pray five times a day at times that are dependent on the position of the sun, The positioning of the body is very exact.

and the, I don't know how many others, might look at that and say that what he means is that we do, I don't know how many, other things

If in reading it we are very exclusive in our thinking we will probably think that what he is meaning is very exclusive, and we are not a part of his we or that we are part of an exclusive number that are. If we are more inclusive or following a more inclusive tradition we will feel included and that others are included and maybe this will be to the extent of how inclusive we are.

If we had reasons to call on the Name from various positions we might have a more intimate experience with what others are experiencing and so our use of the word we will feel more intimate. I think that kind of stuff leads to things that are very beautiful.
Manna
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Post by Manna »

lazariuk wrote:When he says "This is the way we summon one another" is something else, it IS his prayer and as such it is a way to talk to eternity.
I like how you reason through this, with “this” always constant, and therefore a way to talk to eternity.

If this is the prayer, then it sounds like he’s explaining something to G-d. At first, I thought that was silly because, you know, G-d knows, but then I realized that I do this too, so I can understand it better now. I think this may be a prayer to be thankful for a means of communication, but this is only one of the 400 thoughts I’ve had about what this prayer does. And I also feel like I'm being a little thick.
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Post by Simon »

I.15
This is the way we summon one another, but it is not the way we call upon the Name. We stand in rags, we beg for tears to dissolve the immovable landmarks of hatred. How beautiful our heritage, to have this way of speaking to eternity, how bountiful this solitude, surrounded, filled and mastered by the Name, from which all things arise in splendour, depending one upon the other.
This

Image

is the way we summon one another...



This image is from Book of Longing, Page 132.

Wikipedia tells us that:
Nihil obstat

The phrase is Latin, meaning, "nothing hinders" or "nothing stands in the way."

Nihil obstat is an official approval by a delegated censor of the Roman Catholic Church to publish a work dealing with faith or morals. It signifies that the publication is free from Catholic doctrinal or moral error.
Nothing stands in the way of The Order of the Unified Heart...

"This", in psalm I.15, could refer to the shield on the cover of the Book of Mercy, to the Order of the Unified Heart. "This" is our humanity. "This" is not the way we summon the Name. "This" is the way we summon our ragged humanity.
Last edited by Simon on Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
Cohen is the koan
Why else would I still be stuck here
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

In the book Simon does it also have those words "This is the way we summon one another"?

It looks like a coin.
Last edited by lazariuk on Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
DBCohen
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Post by DBCohen »

Simon, this is wonderful, as always.
Simon
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Post by Simon »

lazariuk wrote: In the book Simon does it also have those words "This is the way we summon one another"?
No Jack, only the image. It was the addition of NIHIL OBSTAT to the sheild that we are familiar with that seems to have trigered this association in my mind with the questionning raised here in I.15. I can't realy explain how this brain comes up with such association. Intuition...? I don't know. I'm probaly far off, but somehow it feels as possibility.

On page 132 of BoL the text is:
Another Christopher

There is another Christopher
Guide to Broken Ways
Rejected Christ he carries far
Yours he cannot raise
We stand in rags, we beg for tears to dissolve the immovable landmarks of hatred.
The first part of the psalm seems to address our humanity... that is so eloquently expressed by the intertwined hearts.
Cohen is the koan
Why else would I still be stuck here
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

Simon wrote: No Jack, only the image. It was the addition of NIHIL OBSTAT to the sheild that we are familiar with that seems to have trigered this association in my mind with the questionning raised here in I.15. I can't realy explain how this brain comes up with such association. Intuition...? I don't know. I'm probaly far off, but somehow it feels as possibility.
Thanks Simon for the double clarification. First on separating the words and the image because it really had me confused.

And second for saying that you didn't have a well reasoned explaination for your association because I was trying to figure out what it was.

I have no way of knowing if your intuition is far off but I can tell you what thoughts it led me to.

First the picture of the unitified hearts made me think of Manna's "but"
She had been thinking about what Leonard seemed to be doing and then she said "BUT then I realized that I do that too" She found something that they had in common. That is a unitifying thing. In another way Leonard is like her in that he begins with a statement and then it seems that by saying it it leads to him using a "but", almost like the saying is being answered as part of a dialogue.

I really liked these discussions where people were saying how they prayed or what they thought of prayer. There wasn't any that I felt was foreign to me and I thought that always in some way I was like that too. The more I find out about how people relate to who we call God or don't relate to who we call god the more I feel that I have in common.
and I think this prayer is about this about how united we can be in relation to God and your symbol seemed to support this.

Also it seemed meaningful to me that Leonard would use a Catholic symbol along with a Jewish one with words suggesting that there is nothing hindering us from doing so. I have a personal interest in this because I have found myself taking an interest in the Shemoneth Esre (18 benedictions). I use it in a unique way to pray. I have written them and out I keep reading them and trying to keep editing then and meditating on the meaning of what the words mean. The strange thing is is that I have found it often seems easier to find beauty in a tradition that is not my own. I like the Jewish Tradition maybe because I don't have to worry about being a good Jew. I can just gather from it what I think is beautiful and I don't have to worry that someone will see me eating bacon. In another way it has caused me to reconsider my own traditions and see beauty in them that I never saw before.
I think that something similar may have happened with Leonard.
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Boss
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Post by Boss »

We are entombed by our traditions. We ignore the sacred.

G-d transcends traditions. We use our antiquated prayers in vague attempts to find the Oneness. However, at every moment, we are drenched in eternity. It doesn't matter what Name you use, the value of your IQ, if you abhor truth; Consciousness is.

Thou art that.
Manna
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Post by Manna »

Ha ha ha - all that talk about the end is the beginning and we are here-eternity, and I failed to join the end of this prayer to its beginning. All depending one upon the other.

Ha!

I've been through this prayer so many times that I've managed to memorize it, and now saying it to myself has helped me find a new way to pray. Isn't it funny how this aligns and also clashes with the Catholic tradition of memorizing prayers? Hmmm - Catholic - that's one thing I hadn't been before.
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

Adam ben Meyer wrote:We are entombed by our traditions. We ignore the sacred.

G-d transcends traditions. We use our antiquated prayers in vague attempts to find the Oneness. However, at every moment, we are drenched in eternity. It doesn't matter what Name you use, the value of your IQ, if you abhor truth; Consciousness is.

Thou art that.
Of course you are right Adam, but I think you were also right in a past post when you spoke of a time when a lot of the things that we do today were not needed. I think you said 50,000 years ago.

The option is open to think of traditions as something to jog the memory so that we don't ignor the sacred. Who knows how far back in time these prayers and traditions had their birth? It is a remembering that keeps them from becoming vague and antiquated, at least that is what your post reminded me of. But I can't dwell on that as the present needs my attention.
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Post by Manna »

Adam,
Thou art art.
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Joe Way
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Post by Joe Way »

Simon wrote:
"This" is our humanity. "This" is not the way we summon the Name. "This" is the way we summon our ragged humanity.
The question is, of course, what connection exists between the Name and our ragged humanity.

Your post made me think of Thomas Merton who reminds me in some ways of LC. It was at the urging of a Hindu that Merton began to examine his Catholic roots.

His Columbia Education and the rather wild life, he led there, and apparently earlier at Oxford is still fodder for much speculation. It is said that almost one half of his autobiography, The Seven Storey Mountain, was censored by the Trappist Order.

I've mentioned an article, by Jim Knight, The Thomas Merton We Knew about the influence that Merton had on Knight and their mutual friend, Edward Rice from their school days at Columbia.

Once Merton had been ordained a monk, it seems that the connection between the holy and the secular becomes confused. Knight writes:
We met him at his Ordination ceremony, and afterwards spent two days with him.
It was a great pleasure to see him, and at the same time a curious experience.
Suddenly, this old drinking companion of mine back in college, this wild man
I once had known, was Father Thomas Merton; well, actually, Father Louis,
which was the name he took as a monk. It was a hard thing to cope with,
you don't know what to say, you don't know how to approach him. But we managed.
And, Merton, also in his prayer ceremonies seems to adopt a formal approach, Knight writes here:
"I also visited him about ten years later at the small hermitage
that he had been permitted to have built in the forest,
outside the main monastery. He lived there alone. It was rather primitive, unheated,
without a toilet, no kitchen. He would get up each day at about 2 a.m. and
then go through a lengthy Trappist routine of prayers. He would meditate before the
face of God like a Sufi Master, as if he were in the presence of God Himself.
But Merton was also a writer. As V. S. Naipaul said to the young Paul Theroux, (Theroux had not yet published anything), "But Paul, you are a writer, that is how you can endure the world." So Merton, despite living in a silent community reached out to the wider world through his books.

While still at Columbia, Merton purchased, The Spirit of Medieval Philosophy. Knight describes Merton's reaction upon discovering that the book contains the "Nihil Obstat."
Merton, himself, was shocked when he first encountered the small print saying,
"Nihil Obstat...Imprimatur" in one of his early coveted readings --
Etienne Gilson's "The Spirit of Medieval Philosophy," which he bought
while still at Columbia. "Nothing hinders...let it be printed" --
the official go-ahead from the Vatican.
"The feeling of disgust and deception struck me like a
knife in the pit of my stomach," he wrote of his shock when he opened the book
on the train taking him home to Douglaston. "I felt as if I had been cheated...
I was tempted to throw the thing out the window."
But instead of giving in to his horror of censorship, he actually read the book,
and Gilson became one of his mentors, along with Mark Van Doren, the poet
William Blake, his Columbia professor friend Dan Walsh, and the
French writer Jacques Maritain.
From this book, discovers a new way of encountering God-one not necessarily shared by his friends.
"I discovered an entirely new concept of God," he said,
"expressed in the word 'Aseitas'...that God exists a se, of and
by reason of Himself...that God is Being Itself..."
It was a philosophical concept that Merton felt deeply;


His friend, Rice says in contrast:
for me, it is one more philosophical concept connected with
the idea of God that my own mind cannot connect with, cannot comprehend,
no matter how hard I try. I don't seem to have much control over this;
my mind keeps telling me that we're on our own.
The head of the order, the Abbot-General, Dom Gabriel Sortais and Merton found themselves completely at odds with one another. Sortais refused to allow a book that Merton had written about Teilhard de Chardin to be published. Merton writes:
"The decision means little to me one way or the other, and I can accept it without difficulty. Less easily the stuffy authoritarianism of Dom Gabriel, who cannot help being an autocrat, even while multiplying protestations of love. I rebel against being treated as a 'property,' as an 'instrument' and as a 'thing' by the Superiors of this Order. He definitely insists that I think as he thinks, for to think with him is to 'think with the Church.' To many this would seem quite obvious. Is it not the formula they follow in Moscow?"
Sortais assigns an official censor to Merton. After Merton's death, Knight goes to interview him. He says:
Father Paul had been chief censor for the Order in the United States
and was asked to pay special attention to Merton's voluminous writing.
We arrived too early and waited for about an hour while he took his
afternoon rest, which he visibly needed. A tall, frail man of 87,
with a wonderful smile, he said, yes, he had been the censor of Father Louis,
and quite reluctantly so. But he did use the word "censor";
the administrative directrice had said that Father Paul "critiqued"
Merton's writings. Father Paul seemed lightly apologetic about the whole matter.
"I told Dom Gabriel when he appointed me that the man I was
being asked to censor knew much more about the Cistercian Order than I do,"
he said to me. "But Dom Gabriel insisted; 'Vous avez du bon sens,
vous pouvez le faire.'"
From the way Father Paul described his conception of his functions to me,
he must have been more of a copy-editor than a censor. "I just corrected mistakes
in his texts," he said. "I never changed anything. Sometimes he was so busy
with writing and everything else that he would forget to attribute passages
to their author. He thanked me for this."
Merton's studies became increasingly influenced by Zen Buddhism. It was on a trip to a Zen Buddhist retreat in Thailand just after he had met the Dalai Lama that Merton was killed in a freak accident in his hotel room.

There is some movement in the Roman Catholic church to discredit some of Merton's work because of the Zen Buddhist influence. His friend, Rice speaks of this:
"Merton saw other religions and other denominations as travellers
on the same road. He was a student for years of Judaism and non-Christian religions.
He went deeply into Hinduism and Buddhism. The monastery (Gethsemani)
did not appreciate that he wrote so much about non-Christian religions.
Christians, then and today, see non-Christians as potential targets
for conversion, souls to be captured and turned into good Christians.
Merton didn't see it like that. His writings on Hinduism, Buddhism,
Confucianism, and later, Islam, are significant because of his belief
that all of them are searching, as he was, for the ultimate truth."
Yesterday's Psalm response at my church was something like, "Give thanks to God for God has given us great things-music and laughter." I know this isn't exactly right, but it is close.

When Merton died, his obituary was on the front page of the New York Times along with the obituary for the Protestan theologian, Karl Barth, who had died in his sleep at the age of 82. Merton had written of Barth in his book, Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander.
He wrote:
"Karl Barth had a dream about Mozart,"
Merton said. In the dream, Barth had been appointed to examine Mozart on his
theology, and he was trying to make things easy for him.
But Mozart did not answer. Merton felt that Barth's dream was about
Barth's salvation, and that Barth felt he would be saved more by the Mozart
in himself than by theology. "Each day, for years," Merton wrote,
"Barth played Mozart every morning before going to work on his dogma,
unconsciously seeking to awaken, perhaps, the hidden sophianic Mozart
in himself, the central wisdom that comes with the divine and cosmic music
and is saved by love...
"Fear not, Karl Barth," Merton continued. "Trust in the divine mercy...
Your books and mine matter less than we might think!
There is in us a Mozart who will be our salvation."
Perhaps, that Mozart in us who will be our salvation is what connects our ragged humanity to the Name.

The entire essay by Jim Knight can be read here:

http://www.therealmerton.com/default.html

It is well worth reading and somehow I feel there is a close connection with our discussion.

Joe
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Boss
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Post by Boss »

lazariuk wrote:
Adam ben Meyer wrote:We are entombed by our traditions. We ignore the sacred.

G-d transcends traditions. We use our antiquated prayers in vague attempts to find the Oneness. However, at every moment, we are drenched in eternity. It doesn't matter what Name you use, the value of your IQ, if you abhor truth; Consciousness is.

Thou art that.
Of course you are right Adam, but I think you were also right in a past post when you spoke of a time when a lot of the things that we do today were not needed. I think you said 50,000 years ago.
This is what I wrote:
...don't think our African ancestors, 734,000 years ago, remembered it! Only knew the blessing of Life, in the now. Like us today.

They lived an eternal moment. We know eternity too; it happens, now, and only now.
I was writing that our ancestors did not know some disparate heaven. They lived the day. You were there 734,000 years ago, Jack! You were there 3.5 billion years ago when those first cells started dividing. You were there, not in the brilliant awareness you know today, but you were there. You were there before the Big Bang and you are there after the end of the Universe. So was, is and will be Manna.

It's this interconnectedness of all things, the four-dimensional dance of existence I'm impressing on you. Our prayer is limiting. We are more evolved than our forebears 1500, 2000, 3000 years ago. Prayer needs to be more relevant. And ritual definitely does too. What is our ritual today? Sport, ice, fucking? We are not connected in the now.

I use ancient prayer on Friday nights. It connects me with my forebears. I pay respect to them. But transcendance is available to me 24/7.

I used to think that once you die, that's it. Sure my body will be dust in 25,000 years, but my consciousness is already there! And I'm not talking about heaven at all.

Didn't Christ say: before Abraham was, I am? I think he got it.

Words are sometimes an impediment to the very thing that is being described. All I say is this: you are always

In peace,
Adam
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mat james
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Post by mat james »

before Abraham was, I am?
8)
I like that quote Boss.
Matj
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
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