Malsi
I hope you are correct and Sunni and Shia can unite and form a stable government, of whatever political form, that encourages freedom and equality and the humane treatment of all. I am afraid, however, that history is against it.
JTS (The one thing that should cause the least surprise is man's inhumanity to his fellow man)
hell bent on war
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John the Shorts
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tom.d.stiller
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My Dear Friend (Lady or Sir) NEHOC
just a hint:
never mistake a bandanna for a burka. (After all, did Janis sing: "I took my harpoon out of my dirty red burka..."?)
Those who march for Peace, for Democracy, for Human Rights, and Women's Lib deserve better than being burka'ed by you. But they might wear a bandanna with pride.
Can it be that your hidden agenda is to condemn those who don't follow your opinions slavishly to wearing burkas?
Tom
just a hint:
never mistake a bandanna for a burka. (After all, did Janis sing: "I took my harpoon out of my dirty red burka..."?)
Those who march for Peace, for Democracy, for Human Rights, and Women's Lib deserve better than being burka'ed by you. But they might wear a bandanna with pride.
Can it be that your hidden agenda is to condemn those who don't follow your opinions slavishly to wearing burkas?
Tom
when i refered to the 'overwelming success ' of the allies ,i was attempting to put things in context,what with all the doomsday predictions that where rampant,here and in the media.
of course i am not blind to the hundreds of maimed and killed civilians.
we all can imagine that with thousands of bombs and missiles raining down on iraq ,there wouldnt be a 100% accuracy rating.the implacations are horrendous,not to be downplayed at all.
the iraqis dont want us there forever,and for that simple reason,even with all the speculation of colonialism,it wont happen.not that i ever believed it would.
the oil wells were apperantly top priority.makes sense,when you think of iraqs finacial future.the medical supplies i dont believe were in any way intentionaly delayed.sad when i heard the zoos were looted and animals unatended.that was taken care of too.
salut,
elazar
of course i am not blind to the hundreds of maimed and killed civilians.
we all can imagine that with thousands of bombs and missiles raining down on iraq ,there wouldnt be a 100% accuracy rating.the implacations are horrendous,not to be downplayed at all.
the iraqis dont want us there forever,and for that simple reason,even with all the speculation of colonialism,it wont happen.not that i ever believed it would.
the oil wells were apperantly top priority.makes sense,when you think of iraqs finacial future.the medical supplies i dont believe were in any way intentionaly delayed.sad when i heard the zoos were looted and animals unatended.that was taken care of too.
salut,
elazar
breathe deep and live
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George.Wright
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tom.d.stiller
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Dear elazar,
needless to say you are "not blind to the hundreds of maimed and killed civilians". No one who ever had the pleasure to participate in a discussion with you would have suspected you were.
As you know, I'm not quite so optimistic as to Iraq's future, though I dearly hope to be wrong about that.
salut.
Tom
needless to say you are "not blind to the hundreds of maimed and killed civilians". No one who ever had the pleasure to participate in a discussion with you would have suspected you were.
As you know, I'm not quite so optimistic as to Iraq's future, though I dearly hope to be wrong about that.
salut.
Tom
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tom.d.stiller
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- I wish we could only be humane - Tom-
John the Shorts
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Byron
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Perhaps the ordinary Iraqi people who have been told what to do, what to say, what to think, for the last 30 years will find the concept of 'democracy' a very difficult one to comprehend. We in the 'civilised' world are familiar with our own freedoms of expression and speech etc. However, one could put an argument forward for the Iraqi people to undergo a transitional stage towards 'democracy' in which their 'church' leads them on the road to 'democracy.' Their 'church' leaders are like the monks of our 'church' of the Middle Ages, who were the only people who had the opportunities to read and research social and political ideas. The 'humanists' in Europe were a very important part in helping to bring the ordinary man in the street into an 'enlightenment' which flourished and grew alongside other ideas and eventually brought 'democracy' in it's early forms to the western world.
I know that there is a genuine fear of an Islamic State emerging from the ashes of Baghdad, but the fight to bring sense, order, freedom, honesty, transparency and a fedgling democracy to the oppressed citizens of Iraq, will require tender loving care from those who are carrying the mantle of authority in the interim. The West will achieve nothing if the Iraqi people have 'DEMOCRACY' shoved down their throats from day 1.
If a man crawls out of the dessert and is dying of thirst, the worst thing you can do is fill him full of life giving water. The shock to his system will kill him. The west will have to tread very carefully because the Iraqi people are not stupid. Just because they dress differently to us and attend different 'churches,' it doesn't mean they have an inferior intellect.
Also, we have to be careful that we don't regard the 4 week war like we would a 4 hour war film. There will be no rolling credits going up at the end of this particular 'media' show. The real effort for the hearts and minds of the Iraqis begins now. We've smashed down the door, but we've yet to sit at the table and discuss the future with all of the free Iraqis.
I know that there is a genuine fear of an Islamic State emerging from the ashes of Baghdad, but the fight to bring sense, order, freedom, honesty, transparency and a fedgling democracy to the oppressed citizens of Iraq, will require tender loving care from those who are carrying the mantle of authority in the interim. The West will achieve nothing if the Iraqi people have 'DEMOCRACY' shoved down their throats from day 1.
If a man crawls out of the dessert and is dying of thirst, the worst thing you can do is fill him full of life giving water. The shock to his system will kill him. The west will have to tread very carefully because the Iraqi people are not stupid. Just because they dress differently to us and attend different 'churches,' it doesn't mean they have an inferior intellect.
Also, we have to be careful that we don't regard the 4 week war like we would a 4 hour war film. There will be no rolling credits going up at the end of this particular 'media' show. The real effort for the hearts and minds of the Iraqis begins now. We've smashed down the door, but we've yet to sit at the table and discuss the future with all of the free Iraqis.
Excellent commentary, Byron, with which I agree.....with the exception of the Islamic state. Is this necessarily a "bad" thing? Can it not be done in a manner that is agreeable to the hearts and souls of the Iraqis, and are not the majority of the people in Iraq, Islamic? So, an Islamic state would be comparable to a democracy, i.e. the "majority rule"? Please correct me wherever I'm wrong on these comments.
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Byron
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Elizabeth. I take your point about the 'Islamic State' and the perception of it from within such a state and the perception of it from outside the state, from a non-Islamic culture.
I kept my discussion/summary within close bounds, for fear of setting off a waterfall of thinking, from any persons who would find the concept of an Islamic State anathema. I use that word deliberately because of its historical, religious connotations.
One only has to look to Italy to see a non-democratic state in existence which finds favour with millions of people. Namely, The Vatican. It works well. Educated, intelligent men, and women, have no problems in maintaining its existence.
One could see a situation in which a country such as Iraq could happily find peace and harmony within its citizenry, who could go about their daily business without fear of oppression. Of course, the problem of well educated and highly articulate, religious zealots would be an international worry. But whoever is in power in whatever country or state, wields the same influences, no matter what system is used by its people.
One only has to recall 'Animal Farm' to understand those facts.
I agree with the US Declaration that men should be free to pursue 'happiness.'
The Iraqi people want to be happy. Let them find their own version of that happiness. By imposing our version of happiness on them, one could argue that we are denying them their own happiness.
As I wrote earlier, it will be a difficult task to perform by those who have been given the power to organise the emergence of a new Iraq. Different cultures aspire to different things and it is that fact which has to be acknowledged by one and all.
I'm listening to Nina Simone as I write and remembering that she left 'a cradle of democracy' because she was a black woman who was deeply unhappy in the culture in which she worked and lived.
Some might say that the example I use of Vatican City is weak because it is only a very small piece of land with a small community working there. My point in using it as an example, is that it is an example. It functions and exists with the consent of millions of people. It is not a political Democracy as far as I know, but perhaps I'm wrong and I'm sure I'll be told if I am.
I kept my discussion/summary within close bounds, for fear of setting off a waterfall of thinking, from any persons who would find the concept of an Islamic State anathema. I use that word deliberately because of its historical, religious connotations.
One only has to look to Italy to see a non-democratic state in existence which finds favour with millions of people. Namely, The Vatican. It works well. Educated, intelligent men, and women, have no problems in maintaining its existence.
One could see a situation in which a country such as Iraq could happily find peace and harmony within its citizenry, who could go about their daily business without fear of oppression. Of course, the problem of well educated and highly articulate, religious zealots would be an international worry. But whoever is in power in whatever country or state, wields the same influences, no matter what system is used by its people.
One only has to recall 'Animal Farm' to understand those facts.
I agree with the US Declaration that men should be free to pursue 'happiness.'
The Iraqi people want to be happy. Let them find their own version of that happiness. By imposing our version of happiness on them, one could argue that we are denying them their own happiness.
As I wrote earlier, it will be a difficult task to perform by those who have been given the power to organise the emergence of a new Iraq. Different cultures aspire to different things and it is that fact which has to be acknowledged by one and all.
I'm listening to Nina Simone as I write and remembering that she left 'a cradle of democracy' because she was a black woman who was deeply unhappy in the culture in which she worked and lived.
Some might say that the example I use of Vatican City is weak because it is only a very small piece of land with a small community working there. My point in using it as an example, is that it is an example. It functions and exists with the consent of millions of people. It is not a political Democracy as far as I know, but perhaps I'm wrong and I'm sure I'll be told if I am.
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Byron
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Further to my previous posting, I have seen that there is now another problem in Baghdad because of an explosives collection being ignited.
I have no idea who caused it and I have no wish to apportion any blame for the act. It could well have been an accident and to be fair there have been enough unintentional accidents in this war.
The response of the local people who have organised themselves into an anti-American fervour is disturbing.
We know as a fact that hospitals and other civil and social authorities have been having difficulty in continuing to function on behalf of the local people. It had become clear that the coilition troops were not adequately prepared for civil unrest on a scale which we all have seen over the last couple of weeks.
There was a vacuum after the fall of the Iraqi defences and unfortunately the liberating powers had not moved fast enough to fill that vacuum, with an immediate push of humanitarian aid.
The Iraqi people seem to have lost their initial respect for the coilition forces, and it will take a much bigger effort to restore that respect, than if the planners for the coilition forces had looked further down the road. The job was not finished at the end of the first Gulf War and it seems that there are still planners who have a tendency to leave loose threads wherever they go.
This is not a criticism of any country. It is a simple statement of observation concerning the 'brains' who are behind the overall plans for the democratisation of Iraq. I'm not attacking flags here. I'm criticising the ineptitude of the planners, because all of the events which were put into motion were as a result of senior management sitting down and talking the plan through. Neither is it the advantage of hindsight. We all saw the devastation and destruction which was left after the last Gulf War and the enormous effort that was needed to reverse all the damage.
The problem which the coilition has now is that it has not got the Respect which it needs to win over the hearts and minds of people who are still without law, order, water, food, medicine etc. As I said in a previous posting, this is not the end of some war film where we wait for the end credits to roll across the screen. The hard work now begins. Winning the peace will not be easy.
I have no idea who caused it and I have no wish to apportion any blame for the act. It could well have been an accident and to be fair there have been enough unintentional accidents in this war.
The response of the local people who have organised themselves into an anti-American fervour is disturbing.
We know as a fact that hospitals and other civil and social authorities have been having difficulty in continuing to function on behalf of the local people. It had become clear that the coilition troops were not adequately prepared for civil unrest on a scale which we all have seen over the last couple of weeks.
There was a vacuum after the fall of the Iraqi defences and unfortunately the liberating powers had not moved fast enough to fill that vacuum, with an immediate push of humanitarian aid.
The Iraqi people seem to have lost their initial respect for the coilition forces, and it will take a much bigger effort to restore that respect, than if the planners for the coilition forces had looked further down the road. The job was not finished at the end of the first Gulf War and it seems that there are still planners who have a tendency to leave loose threads wherever they go.
This is not a criticism of any country. It is a simple statement of observation concerning the 'brains' who are behind the overall plans for the democratisation of Iraq. I'm not attacking flags here. I'm criticising the ineptitude of the planners, because all of the events which were put into motion were as a result of senior management sitting down and talking the plan through. Neither is it the advantage of hindsight. We all saw the devastation and destruction which was left after the last Gulf War and the enormous effort that was needed to reverse all the damage.
The problem which the coilition has now is that it has not got the Respect which it needs to win over the hearts and minds of people who are still without law, order, water, food, medicine etc. As I said in a previous posting, this is not the end of some war film where we wait for the end credits to roll across the screen. The hard work now begins. Winning the peace will not be easy.
In order to not belabour the point, Byron.....I agree with you. It is the citizenry soon becoming resentful at what they perceive [not inaccurately from my perspective] as being occupation and all that, that implies. I am deeply glad that I was wrong regarding the relatively "minimal" in numbers loss of lives of the Allied Forces. I am deeply regretful for those that were lost....and of the Iraqi citizenry as well. I am glad that the battle[s] did not go as I had anticipated. However, the remainder is going exactly as I had anticipated. That is the real, overall "war" and it doesn't look good. Leonard's poem haunts me....and perhaps it's due to my own preoccupation that I see it as being in regard to Iraq. I will still be revisiting it in that thread to give my own take on it.
When Iraqi men are bloodying their own heads in the street gatherings, protesting the troops remaining there, etc. ~ we can know that their principles regarding all of this is markedly different than ours. When do we see this sort of self-mutilation behaviour here?
My understanding [and, of course, I'm kicking myself now for not getting the reference, and hence the transcript] is that particular parts of that region got along fairly well until the influences of westernization and then the bickering and discontent began. They used to have a functional respect and acceptance of all their differences. Unfortunately, I cannot give you the exact source, and further details, just the concept...but it was a segment on NPR regarding it.
There are many differences between us that the planners have failed to take into account, and absolutely, having one's ducks in a row before invasion should have been top priority....anticipate outcomes and measures to address them....you know, like planning does?
When Iraqi men are bloodying their own heads in the street gatherings, protesting the troops remaining there, etc. ~ we can know that their principles regarding all of this is markedly different than ours. When do we see this sort of self-mutilation behaviour here?
My understanding [and, of course, I'm kicking myself now for not getting the reference, and hence the transcript] is that particular parts of that region got along fairly well until the influences of westernization and then the bickering and discontent began. They used to have a functional respect and acceptance of all their differences. Unfortunately, I cannot give you the exact source, and further details, just the concept...but it was a segment on NPR regarding it.
There are many differences between us that the planners have failed to take into account, and absolutely, having one's ducks in a row before invasion should have been top priority....anticipate outcomes and measures to address them....you know, like planning does?
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John the Shorts
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Byron, Lizzy
You are assuming that people learn from past mistakes - in my experience this is extremely unlikely.
Byron you are right to fear the Iraqis having a regime forced upon them, this is what happened in Europe at the end of the first world war in Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire, this in turn led to the Second World War at the end of which Eastern Europe had a regime imposed upon them which 50+ years later is still causing no end of war in the balkans.
The one thing that should have been learned from this is that it is impossible to decide for other nations what path is correct for them - but have the planners learnt this?
JTS
You are assuming that people learn from past mistakes - in my experience this is extremely unlikely.
Byron you are right to fear the Iraqis having a regime forced upon them, this is what happened in Europe at the end of the first world war in Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire, this in turn led to the Second World War at the end of which Eastern Europe had a regime imposed upon them which 50+ years later is still causing no end of war in the balkans.
The one thing that should have been learned from this is that it is impossible to decide for other nations what path is correct for them - but have the planners learnt this?
JTS
Hell Bent
All this talk (and not just here) of a potential Islamic State. In substance- surely this is no different to a Christian State or a Jewish State. These male-superior monotheistic notions of faith are one and the same thing. They all derive from the same dreaming. Yes 
Possibly from the Egyptian invention of Aten the "one god whose face is the sun". Or did they appropriate this idea from the wandering semitic tribes that sojourned in Egypt? I am sure there are plenty to disagree with me. No matter- it is a realm where we all find it very difficult to agree on some common ground. And surely these western/Bush/Rumsfeld etc. notions of democracy are simply a Judeo/Christian assertion under another name. "A rose By any other---".
Ideology can drive humans to do the most appalling things and it matters not whether that ideology is sacred or secular. This current drama in Iraq is another example of the ongoing historical mess that we may never see the end of. If we can as a species engage intelligence to rise above this pattern of behaviour, we have yet to see the evidence that some "golden age" may be at hand and the legacy of the past can be left behind. "In the name of destiny" we blunder on.
Perhaps this is an appropriate location to post a poem that I presented to the blue board some time back for those who are not already familiar with these lines. For your consideration-
Ship Of Fools
Down the corridors of carnage trudge the ghosts of genocide,
Weeping their flood of grief into the quicksilver night.
Poignant tears, splashing ripples upon the ocean of our dreams,
Disturbing relentlessly, the peace of a child's innocence.
Transforming naive visions of paradise,
To the hellish horrors of the crimson spattered ape.
Carving a path through history with their demon blades,
Captain Righteous and his ship of fools, sailing-
On a sea of sacred words and deified notions, for the heavenly rewards,
Of their blessed crusades against the heathen, pagan and infidel.
This sapient simian, rising to the realm of the gods;
Deluded by the neural impulses of a convoluted cortex,
Cast adrift from aboreal origins- believing, in dominion
Over bird and beast by divine ordinance- spews dogma.
With paper blades and artillery of ink
Sacred text denies the animal link.
And as into the mire we sink,
We dream; therefore we know; we think.
(c) J. W. 1995.
Regards,
Possibly from the Egyptian invention of Aten the "one god whose face is the sun". Or did they appropriate this idea from the wandering semitic tribes that sojourned in Egypt? I am sure there are plenty to disagree with me. No matter- it is a realm where we all find it very difficult to agree on some common ground. And surely these western/Bush/Rumsfeld etc. notions of democracy are simply a Judeo/Christian assertion under another name. "A rose By any other---". Ideology can drive humans to do the most appalling things and it matters not whether that ideology is sacred or secular. This current drama in Iraq is another example of the ongoing historical mess that we may never see the end of. If we can as a species engage intelligence to rise above this pattern of behaviour, we have yet to see the evidence that some "golden age" may be at hand and the legacy of the past can be left behind. "In the name of destiny" we blunder on.
Perhaps this is an appropriate location to post a poem that I presented to the blue board some time back for those who are not already familiar with these lines. For your consideration-
Ship Of Fools
Down the corridors of carnage trudge the ghosts of genocide,
Weeping their flood of grief into the quicksilver night.
Poignant tears, splashing ripples upon the ocean of our dreams,
Disturbing relentlessly, the peace of a child's innocence.
Transforming naive visions of paradise,
To the hellish horrors of the crimson spattered ape.
Carving a path through history with their demon blades,
Captain Righteous and his ship of fools, sailing-
On a sea of sacred words and deified notions, for the heavenly rewards,
Of their blessed crusades against the heathen, pagan and infidel.
This sapient simian, rising to the realm of the gods;
Deluded by the neural impulses of a convoluted cortex,
Cast adrift from aboreal origins- believing, in dominion
Over bird and beast by divine ordinance- spews dogma.
With paper blades and artillery of ink
Sacred text denies the animal link.
And as into the mire we sink,
We dream; therefore we know; we think.
(c) J. W. 1995.
Regards,