I mentioned in another thread that my father and I are reading Beautiful Losers together over my Spring Break (although we've gotten behind, so finishing the book will probably take a lot longer). Manna suggested I start a thread about the experience over here. This will be kind of random, so I'm going to assume that people here have read or are reading the book, so there will be spoilers. Starting...now.
Dad and I are stuck on page sixty-eight, which in my copy is right after Edith, at the age of thirteen, is brutally raped by three men. This scene is really hard to get over. Dad and I freaked out over it for different reasons.
Dad's upset over the narrator's confession: "I've been pursuing her little body through the forest ever since, I confess...Edith, forgive me, it was the thirteen-year-old victim I always fucked." Dad takes this to mean that the narrator is a pedophile who imagined himself recreating the rape assault every time he had sex with Edith. I didn't see it that way - I interpreted it more as the narrator feeling guilty over having a rape fantasy. Having a fantasy and acting on those thoughts are two quite different things. Also, Cohen doesn't try to soften the scene at all - there's no implication that Edith 'asked for it.'
The scene is horrific, but I was disturbed on a more intellectual level. It seems to me that Edith and Blessed Katherine Tekakwitha are in some ways the same person. However, the scene reads like the description of the death of St. Maria Goretti. St. Marie was murdered at the age of twelve by a neighbor who attempted to rape her - he didn't 'succeed', but stabbed her fourteen times. Similarly to the way that Edith's rapists used other objects for their attack. Earlier in the book (page 47 in my copy), the narrator posts a list of accusations against the Catholic Church. He ends with "I accuse the Church of female circumcision in French Canada." Dad suggests that perhaps "condoning child rape" should be added to the list and I wonder if he's right.
Do you interpret the book as being anti-Catholic? Dad keeps pointing out those aspects. This is related to a personal issue: I converted to Catholicism five years ago, and my parents (dedicated Pagans; however, Dad was raised Catholic) did not take that well. I didn't realize exactly how much my father still resents my choice.
This post kind of rambles. Any thoughts?
(Because people asked in the other thread: I am twenty-four, and Dad and I split the book up over however many days we have and talk about it after we read. We used to read aloud, but living in different time zones makes that a tad difficult now.)
Beautiful Losers reading project
It is so very kind that you are sharing this experience that you are having with your father with us and I for one will be following your postings with great interest.
I don't know the book very well and so i probably will not respond much. One person who I think knows it very well is Geoffery and so if I were you I would pay close attention to any comments he might have.
Reading books with others is something that I have done too little of.
I don't know the book very well and so i probably will not respond much. One person who I think knows it very well is Geoffery and so if I were you I would pay close attention to any comments he might have.
Reading books with others is something that I have done too little of.
Dear Beccka,
It's a tremendous gift to us and to yourself that you will be sharing your and your Dad's reactions to various aspects of your reading as you go. As you've already noticed, it's going to be so illuminating for you, particularly with the very interesting nature of your own backgrounds, a Pagan and converted Catholic, relative to the aspects of the book that are variously steeped in Catholicism.
What a discovery you've already made on a personal level, and your differences in perspectives on the content within the book. These alone, without considering that you are a father and daughter who are reading this together, with all the attendant, historical and social, sexual taboos of that relationship. It's a privilege that you share your reading experience with us. I'm hoping you'll copy this thread for keeping on paper. So interesting and poignant it will be for you to read back on it in 30, 40, 50, 60 years, as you grow older and much older and even after your Dad is gone.
I will enjoy simply reading whatever you write here. It's very apparent that you're handling this reading project very well, and are expressing both of your reactions to the material, equally well, for us here. I've done some reading with my former husband, yet it was not something in its entirety, but rather sharing and discussing segments from different books each of us were reading separately.
I've never had a reading experience that comes close to this. Thanks for following Manna's suggestion and starting a thread dedicated to yours. I, too, will be following it with great interest. I would think Leonard would, too.
~ Lizzy
It's a tremendous gift to us and to yourself that you will be sharing your and your Dad's reactions to various aspects of your reading as you go. As you've already noticed, it's going to be so illuminating for you, particularly with the very interesting nature of your own backgrounds, a Pagan and converted Catholic, relative to the aspects of the book that are variously steeped in Catholicism.
What a discovery you've already made on a personal level, and your differences in perspectives on the content within the book. These alone, without considering that you are a father and daughter who are reading this together, with all the attendant, historical and social, sexual taboos of that relationship. It's a privilege that you share your reading experience with us. I'm hoping you'll copy this thread for keeping on paper. So interesting and poignant it will be for you to read back on it in 30, 40, 50, 60 years, as you grow older and much older and even after your Dad is gone.
I will enjoy simply reading whatever you write here. It's very apparent that you're handling this reading project very well, and are expressing both of your reactions to the material, equally well, for us here. I've done some reading with my former husband, yet it was not something in its entirety, but rather sharing and discussing segments from different books each of us were reading separately.
I've never had a reading experience that comes close to this. Thanks for following Manna's suggestion and starting a thread dedicated to yours. I, too, will be following it with great interest. I would think Leonard would, too.
~ Lizzy
Beccka,
When you read "A-----s" - what goes through your mind? As a reader, I say the words in my head. I think some people can just see the words and grasp their meaning without saying them; I cannot. I think this is why you're always told to read poetry aloud, which I've never found to be a different experience from reading it silently. So when I read "A-----s" what went through my head was "A-big-dashes." This kind of sounds like it could be an Indian name, Abigdash, but I am probably casting an unintented insult to my beloved friend, MSD.
Well, I just read this over to check it before posting, and I think it sounds sufficiently crazy to belong on the LCF. Perhaps I should have prefaced with "Warning: Random thought ahead."
When you read "A-----s" - what goes through your mind? As a reader, I say the words in my head. I think some people can just see the words and grasp their meaning without saying them; I cannot. I think this is why you're always told to read poetry aloud, which I've never found to be a different experience from reading it silently. So when I read "A-----s" what went through my head was "A-big-dashes." This kind of sounds like it could be an Indian name, Abigdash, but I am probably casting an unintented insult to my beloved friend, MSD.
Well, I just read this over to check it before posting, and I think it sounds sufficiently crazy to belong on the LCF. Perhaps I should have prefaced with "Warning: Random thought ahead."
Hi Beccka,
For lack of time I will have to resist the temptation to get much involved in this thread. But I'll be very interested in its developments and will surely read you. This is a great project. It certainly indicates that you have priviledge relation with your Dad and that is worth a lot in someone's life.
We would all be glad, I'm sure, if your Dad joined in here in the discussion to defend his points, if you think he might be enticed into this. Cheaper than long distance calls too...
Have fun.
For lack of time I will have to resist the temptation to get much involved in this thread. But I'll be very interested in its developments and will surely read you. This is a great project. It certainly indicates that you have priviledge relation with your Dad and that is worth a lot in someone's life.
We would all be glad, I'm sure, if your Dad joined in here in the discussion to defend his points, if you think he might be enticed into this. Cheaper than long distance calls too...
Have fun.
Cohen is the koan
Why else would I still be stuck here
Why else would I still be stuck here
So true.It certainly indicates that you have priviledge relation with your Dad and that is worth a lot in someone's life.
WoW ~ Excellent point, Simon! I'll be interested to see what transpires with your idea.We would all be glad, I'm sure, if your Dad joined in here in the discussion to defend his points, if you think he might be enticed into this. Cheaper than long distance calls too...
~ Lizzy
Thanks for your replies, everyone. I do appreciate them. I hope this is as interesting as you all think it will be. I'm pulling a lot of this from my personal journal, so lizzytysh, I am keeping a personal record of this.
Manna, I always hear the words in my head when reading...things like "A-----s" come out in my head sounding like "A-mmmm-s". Like there's a hum or something in between. I really wonder what tribe Cohen had in mind when he wrote that? (Random thoughts are good. Also awkward segues in the other topics.)
Reading together is a great experience...I wish that I did it with more people, or even just more often. It's hard for Dad and I to find the time to get started together. We do make the effort, because this is the one activity we can do without arguing! (Well, much.) We disagree on almost everything and neither of us will give an inch. It's not that we have a bad relationship - just an adversarial one.
I told Dad about the forum and this thread and tried to get him involved, but he really doesn't use the internet for much beyond online games. If I can get him involved I will, but he probably won't even read this. (Hmmm...Dad, if you are reading - hi.
) It would be nice if he could be induced to use the internet more...I'm running through my weekday minutes quickly.
Manna, I always hear the words in my head when reading...things like "A-----s" come out in my head sounding like "A-mmmm-s". Like there's a hum or something in between. I really wonder what tribe Cohen had in mind when he wrote that? (Random thoughts are good. Also awkward segues in the other topics.)
Reading together is a great experience...I wish that I did it with more people, or even just more often. It's hard for Dad and I to find the time to get started together. We do make the effort, because this is the one activity we can do without arguing! (Well, much.) We disagree on almost everything and neither of us will give an inch. It's not that we have a bad relationship - just an adversarial one.
I told Dad about the forum and this thread and tried to get him involved, but he really doesn't use the internet for much beyond online games. If I can get him involved I will, but he probably won't even read this. (Hmmm...Dad, if you are reading - hi.
) It would be nice if he could be induced to use the internet more...I'm running through my weekday minutes quickly.This is good enough for meI'm pulling a lot of this from my personal journal, so lizzytysh, I am keeping a personal record of this.
. I'm glad to hear that you're keeping a record of this experience... and that you keep a journal 
.If your Dad shows up here, I guess he won't come in as BecckasDad, will he
? I can assure you that I'll remain interested in this thread, whether your Dad actually joins us or simply does it by proxy through you. Hearing the contrast in your perspectives will continue to be illuminating as to your good, personal relationship and its adversarial nature. I like that distinction.~ Lizzy
What on earth do you all make of the story of Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha at the great feast? (She spills the wine and it spreads over everything, the table, settings, guests, even outside.) I'm puzzled over it. It seems to be completely random. The narrator says he thinks the story is 'apocalyptic', and later says that Edith told it to him with the implication that this is why he knows it's apocalyptic - but should't he have said 'apocryphal'? Given that the narrator defines apocalyptic carefully, I don't think it's just a mistake of language. Like I said, I'm confused. (pages 96 and 104 in my version, sections 41 and 44)
I've been very careful while reading this to not confuse Cohen with the narrator of the book. Maybe they are supposed to be the same person, but Cohen was barely 32 when he wrote the book, and the narrator repeatedly describes himself as an aging academic, I don't think they're the same person.
Dad's the one who pointed that fact out. He says that knowing that allows him to excuse a lot of excesses and the rather unpolished nature of the book: Cohen was too young to have had the experience to write the character of an old man all that well. It's interesting to speculate what the book might have been like if it had been written when Cohen was older. Or younger - maybe we'll pick up some of his other books later.
F and Edith (random: why is Edith given real name and F just the initial?) are wild people, the kinds of people who live short bright insane lives. Why would such people be friends with someone like the narrator? - he's a rather dull, cautious, tortured man. Affection or pity doesn't seem like enough. F uses the narrator as a target sometimes, but even guilt for being cruel doesn't seem like enough.
We're also having interesting discussions on homosexuality, but I'm going to leave those out for the moment until we come to some sort of resolution on them. Although we've hit our moment of too much information: there are things about one's father (and probably one's daughter), that a person does not need to know. Ever.
I'm becoming a little obsessed with the saint myself now. I teach at a Jesuit college...I wonder if I could get my hands on some of those original documents? My French is incredibly rusty but I could manage.
I've been very careful while reading this to not confuse Cohen with the narrator of the book. Maybe they are supposed to be the same person, but Cohen was barely 32 when he wrote the book, and the narrator repeatedly describes himself as an aging academic, I don't think they're the same person.
Dad's the one who pointed that fact out. He says that knowing that allows him to excuse a lot of excesses and the rather unpolished nature of the book: Cohen was too young to have had the experience to write the character of an old man all that well. It's interesting to speculate what the book might have been like if it had been written when Cohen was older. Or younger - maybe we'll pick up some of his other books later.
F and Edith (random: why is Edith given real name and F just the initial?) are wild people, the kinds of people who live short bright insane lives. Why would such people be friends with someone like the narrator? - he's a rather dull, cautious, tortured man. Affection or pity doesn't seem like enough. F uses the narrator as a target sometimes, but even guilt for being cruel doesn't seem like enough.
We're also having interesting discussions on homosexuality, but I'm going to leave those out for the moment until we come to some sort of resolution on them. Although we've hit our moment of too much information: there are things about one's father (and probably one's daughter), that a person does not need to know. Ever.
I'm becoming a little obsessed with the saint myself now. I teach at a Jesuit college...I wonder if I could get my hands on some of those original documents? My French is incredibly rusty but I could manage.
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linda_lakeside
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Again , I'm just flitting about the forum, and Becka, I only read the key lines of your post - I have some other catching up to do - but you're reading and discussing BL w/your Dad - unheard of when it came out! My Dad would have burned the damn book!! So, if you're reading and arguing over Cohen, well that's a pretty fine place to start, init??
Apologies to others who may have said something similar. Leonard will change your life, and your Dad knows this,
Linda.
Apologies to others who may have said something similar. Leonard will change your life, and your Dad knows this,
Linda.
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John Etherington
- Posts: 2605
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Beccka,
I think your excercise here is something quite unique (I do hope someone has drawn Leonard's attention to it). It's a long time since I've read "Beautiful Losers" (I read it twice) and I certainly don't consider myself a scholar of it. However, I found the passage about the spilling of the wine extremely poetic and visionary. Apocalyptic would be the correct word here, because the Moon turns to blood. If my memory serves me well, the Moon turns to blood in John's Revelation at the end of the world (or the end of the age). The only time, I've personally seen this was when we had the visible total eclipse of the Moon earlier this month. When I first read "Beautiful Losers" I found myself reading "F" as the six letter insult that you might expect to be directed at someone for whom the narrator feels both contempt and love. I clearly need to read the book again very soon, to keep track of this thread. All good wishes, John E
I think your excercise here is something quite unique (I do hope someone has drawn Leonard's attention to it). It's a long time since I've read "Beautiful Losers" (I read it twice) and I certainly don't consider myself a scholar of it. However, I found the passage about the spilling of the wine extremely poetic and visionary. Apocalyptic would be the correct word here, because the Moon turns to blood. If my memory serves me well, the Moon turns to blood in John's Revelation at the end of the world (or the end of the age). The only time, I've personally seen this was when we had the visible total eclipse of the Moon earlier this month. When I first read "Beautiful Losers" I found myself reading "F" as the six letter insult that you might expect to be directed at someone for whom the narrator feels both contempt and love. I clearly need to read the book again very soon, to keep track of this thread. All good wishes, John E
A----s probably means Algonquins, but I was never sure about it. I did wonder about the analogy to why he would write it this way and the Jewish tradition of writing "G-d." I read somewhere that this is an expression of deference, that "God" is too important for human hands to write. So I wondered if writing Algonquin as A----s was a way to show deference to this people.
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linda_lakeside
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Very good point/observation. So many of us look at reading as a solitary pleasure - but the insights one gains from the perspective of others! Sure, we could read yet another book on what GB Shaw or so and so thought, but to share a contemporary book with one's 'peers', or those with a 'higher level' of understanding of the material in question, can only enrich the experience. Why do devotees of say, 'romantic' novels read with others, yet the rest of us take to our 'quiet places' to find the solitude we need? How much insight is gained thru solitary experience and lack of contradictory input?Reading books with others is something that I have done too little of.
I read BL so long ago, I couldn't contribute to a group experience, but I certainly think it's a book that invites opinions - also I don't feel like reading it again. Not now, at least.
Linda.
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John Etherington
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Leonard and Catholicism
Hi Beccka,
Returning to your earlier question about whether the book is anti-Catholic, I guess it does attack the repressive aspects of the Roman Catholic Church. As you may know, Leonard was raised part-Catholic by his Irish Catholic nanny. Ira Nadel says that the church represented romance to him. As a Virgo, the ritual of the church would have had an appeal for him. Also with his tendency to idealize women, and treat them as goddesses, the Virgin and the female saints would have been important figures for him (as reflected in songs such as "Suzanne" "Bernadette", and "Lady of Solitude"). Talking about the church in more recent times (on a radio interview by a Catholic priest) Leonard, as I recall, says that although he is not specifically religious, he honours churches, because they are places of great consolation to a great number of people.
All good wishes, John E
Returning to your earlier question about whether the book is anti-Catholic, I guess it does attack the repressive aspects of the Roman Catholic Church. As you may know, Leonard was raised part-Catholic by his Irish Catholic nanny. Ira Nadel says that the church represented romance to him. As a Virgo, the ritual of the church would have had an appeal for him. Also with his tendency to idealize women, and treat them as goddesses, the Virgin and the female saints would have been important figures for him (as reflected in songs such as "Suzanne" "Bernadette", and "Lady of Solitude"). Talking about the church in more recent times (on a radio interview by a Catholic priest) Leonard, as I recall, says that although he is not specifically religious, he honours churches, because they are places of great consolation to a great number of people.
All good wishes, John E