I read BL in the late 70’s. At the time I read it, I didn’t know Irving Layton and the importance of his presence in Leonard Cohen’s life. It is quite blury, but I think my first impression of ‘F’ at the time was that it may have stood for either Freud or ‘Fuck’.
Freud, because ‘F’ constantly analyses or counter-analyses the narrator’s behavior and attitude. So in that sense F would be ‘a tool for reflection’ or auto-analysis. If Layton is the inspiration for F, it is easy to imagine that there must have been some analysing game going on in the group surrounding him.
Fuck ( or fucker, as in jocker or wild card, -after all F f...s his wife-), because ‘F’ seems to represent some untamed raw energy, as if the narrator was conversing with his own libido, or some part of his reptilian brain. Flamplatz.=Fireplace= Libidinal Fire.
But again that’s just reminiscence of what I recall from the reading back then.
This is very interesting.
If the question is raised, is it because LC never answered it or refuses to answer it himself. Was he never asked in interviews who F was?
Who is "F."?? Take Two.
-
Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
This book is like no other to be the base of so many theoris. Each theory seems to be good for the person who makes it. 
For (another) example :
"But beyond the fictional representation, how accurate an account of Whitman’s image in Canada is this? To address that question, I wish to look at two specific Canadian texts that I would suggest describe two distinct attitudes towards Whitman’s Canadian image. The first is a direct response to Whitman’s work and his influence on Canadian poets: in his 1930 monograph on the poetry of Bliss Carman, James Cappon devotes two substantial chapters (almost 80 pages of a 333-page book) to an analysis of the tradition of Emerson and Whitman, though his focus is clearly on Whitman. The second is a much less direct response, Leonard Cohen’s 1966 novel Beautiful Losers in which Whitman does not appear directly, but acts in some ways as a kind of absent presence haunting its allegory of Canadian national identity. Just as Sam Slick represented for Thomas Chandler Haliburton both the excesses and the positive energies of Yankee ingenuity in contrast to Bluenose stodginess, so does Whitman represent a subversive energy that Canadians regard with ambivalent concern. To the Tory nationalist view of Cappon, Whitman’s democratic enthusiasms represent a New World threat to the interests of empire in the northern dominion, while to the postmodern sensibilities of Cohen, Whitman’s promise of inclusiveness offers a means of transcending the polarities of the bicultural model of Canadian society."
Source : http://www.micklestreet.rutgers.edu/pag ... Milton.htm
***
It seems funny to me how many people do the lapsus : Beautiful Loosers.
They are loose people in this book, but...
****
The more brave among you will riks an eye on that take about BL :
http://www.uwo.ca/english/canadianpoetr ... roxton.htm
***
Here is something about F. and Irving Layton
"The character of F in Cohen's Beautiful Losers, for example, was supposed to be inspired by Irving Layton (the source is Dorman and Rawlins's study of ..."
The rest there, if you are able to raid the "lost arch". Good luck! (and have fun!)
http://muse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/access.cgi? ... range.html
It's enough for now!
For (another) example :
"But beyond the fictional representation, how accurate an account of Whitman’s image in Canada is this? To address that question, I wish to look at two specific Canadian texts that I would suggest describe two distinct attitudes towards Whitman’s Canadian image. The first is a direct response to Whitman’s work and his influence on Canadian poets: in his 1930 monograph on the poetry of Bliss Carman, James Cappon devotes two substantial chapters (almost 80 pages of a 333-page book) to an analysis of the tradition of Emerson and Whitman, though his focus is clearly on Whitman. The second is a much less direct response, Leonard Cohen’s 1966 novel Beautiful Losers in which Whitman does not appear directly, but acts in some ways as a kind of absent presence haunting its allegory of Canadian national identity. Just as Sam Slick represented for Thomas Chandler Haliburton both the excesses and the positive energies of Yankee ingenuity in contrast to Bluenose stodginess, so does Whitman represent a subversive energy that Canadians regard with ambivalent concern. To the Tory nationalist view of Cappon, Whitman’s democratic enthusiasms represent a New World threat to the interests of empire in the northern dominion, while to the postmodern sensibilities of Cohen, Whitman’s promise of inclusiveness offers a means of transcending the polarities of the bicultural model of Canadian society."
Source : http://www.micklestreet.rutgers.edu/pag ... Milton.htm
***
It seems funny to me how many people do the lapsus : Beautiful Loosers.
They are loose people in this book, but...
****
The more brave among you will riks an eye on that take about BL :
http://www.uwo.ca/english/canadianpoetr ... roxton.htm
***
Here is something about F. and Irving Layton
"The character of F in Cohen's Beautiful Losers, for example, was supposed to be inspired by Irving Layton (the source is Dorman and Rawlins's study of ..."
The rest there, if you are able to raid the "lost arch". Good luck! (and have fun!)
http://muse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/access.cgi? ... range.html
It's enough for now!
Thanks for the Paul Milton link, Tchoco -another article for my archives:-) Alas, for the Muse link, I don't have ID/password...
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
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Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
Greg cited Ann as writing:
>"Absent father" - well, that's interesting. Military dads are absent, almost by definition, because their allegiance is elsewhere, you might say they are serving false gods, leaving their kids to pick up the pieces. As you describe so well.
Where did Ann write this? I can't see it anywhere.
>"Absent father" - well, that's interesting. Military dads are absent, almost by definition, because their allegiance is elsewhere, you might say they are serving false gods, leaving their kids to pick up the pieces. As you describe so well.
Where did Ann write this? I can't see it anywhere.
~greg mentioned it first, and Ann replayed here, after Elizabeth. Thank you to my find/replace button on keyboard:-)
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
On my word HERE, in midst of her reply. But as I said, I don't know what are you looking for, ~greg was first to mention "father complex", in mid of his first long post.
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
Tom Sakic wrote:
>On my word HERE, in midst of her reply. But as I said, I don't know what are you looking for
I am so sorry. I cannot see it. Where is Ann's letter? This is quite important, I want to see Ann's message - the place where she wrote and what she wrote and when. Where did Greg get it from? I can't remember Ann ever writing that. Are there two Anns? Maybe Greg is lying and just made it up - I wouldn't put it past him. I don't think Ann did ever write it. What is he playing at? Get him here and make him show us where he got it.
>On my word HERE, in midst of her reply. But as I said, I don't know what are you looking for
I am so sorry. I cannot see it. Where is Ann's letter? This is quite important, I want to see Ann's message - the place where she wrote and what she wrote and when. Where did Greg get it from? I can't remember Ann ever writing that. Are there two Anns? Maybe Greg is lying and just made it up - I wouldn't put it past him. I don't think Ann did ever write it. What is he playing at? Get him here and make him show us where he got it.
Geoffrey ~ 1st page, 9th post, 8th paragraph down from the beginning of this thread. [Comments Bolded for your convenience.]humanponysss2000
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 19
Location: ponyland
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: Irving "F." Layton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, Greg, now I feel I know you a little better. Thanks for that Fugue in F minor... or major.
As for moi, my rational mind tells me that F. is probably a composite of a number of possible Father Figures in Cohein's youth.
His dad was in the military, according to Nadel.
That might have made young Leonard more inclined to associate Dads with authoritarian personalities, which F. definitely is -- and also caused him to be ambivalent about those F-figures.
I met Irving Layton a couple of times, and although he projected a certain fierceness in public, he was nothing like the cold, calculating, psychopath in BL.
I see F. as a deluded product of science and logic gone berserk -- and Layton was humane, generous, emotional .. not to mention argumentative of course.
So, the fact is, I don't know, but F. is a liar, a cheat, a wife-stealer who -- in the end -- is defeated by a Danish vibrator. Not much of a man at all, if you ask moi...
"Absent father" -- well, that's interesting. Military dads are absent, almost by definition, because their allegiance is elsewhere, you might say they are serving false gods, leaving their kids to pick up the pieces. As you describe so well.
Same goes for politicians and priests -- all Judases -- and Jesuits are of course the other bad guys of BL.
Jesuits were also deeply into a secret contract with MKULTRA -- trading in orphans and aboriginal kids... I felt I needed to add that.
I am beginning to believe there really is no such thing as Fiction!
_________________
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Under starry skies above
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Remembering the film The Graduate, I have three things for you to remember:
Forget pork barrels... Remember Carrots and Vitamin A.
~ Lizzy
[Even with one eye closed, I can see it
.]lizzytysh wrote:
>Geoffrey ~ 1st page, 9th post, 8th paragraph down from the beginning of this thread.
>
>"Absent father" -- well, that's interesting. Military dads are absent, almost by definition, because their allegiance is elsewhere, you might say they are serving false gods, leaving their kids to pick up the pieces. As you describe so well."
Hello. Thank you. Where does it come from? Why did Greg say that Ann wrote it - and why is everybody afraid to show me? Please can you help me: I cannot see where Ann is attributed as the author. Why is everybody saying Ann wrote it yet nobody can tell me how they know she wrote it or show me where or when it appeared? All I can see is that a person called 'humanponysss2000' wrote it. I don't understand why Greg said it was Ann. What is he talking about? Ann didn't do it - show me where he got it from. Who is humanponysss2000? That's not Ann - where does he get the notion that Ann wrote it? She never did it. Show me where it says that Ann wrote it. He is lying out of his back teeth she didn't come here and write that. Are you going to believe me or Greg? What beats me is why everybody automatically goes onto his side and pretends I'm the one who is dim and I keep asking where he got Ann's message from or where he saw it was written by her and people pretend they don't understand my question. In Greg's letter he quotes Ann as being the author of: "Absent father" -- well, that's interesting. Military dads are absent . . ." etc. but where does it say Ann wrote it? Can you see her name anywhere because I'm damned if I can. This is unacceptable enough, but what's worse is that I ask a question in plain Queen's English and everybody keeps showing me where Greg wrote it. I want to see where Ann wrote it. I want to see where he took it from. On my screen, earlier in this very thread, I read the following by that weasel Greg:
-------------------------------------------------
>Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:25 am Post subject:
>
>Ann wrote:
>[quote] "Absent father" -- well, that's interesting.
Military dads are absent, almost by definition,
because their allegiance is elsewhere, you might say
they are serving false gods, leaving their kids
to pick up the pieces. As you describe so well. [end of quote]
>
>I am not sure. But I get the feeling that you got the wrong impression, about a couple of things in what I wrote. First, about my father.
>
>My father was never in the military (-except in WWII). And he'd be very offended if anyone said he was . . . etc., etc., etc.
-------------------------------------------------
Why does he say that Ann wrote the upper paragraph? What else did she write, and to whom? It is nowhere on this site to be found except in his mind. He invented it. That little whelk actually sat there and made up the whole damned story and thought he'd got clean away with it. The fact is that Ann did not write that and I defy anyone to show me where she wrote it. It's fiction. Unless I'm very mistaken Greg succumbed to mischievousness and concocted the entire thing up. He fabricated it. Ask him where he got it from, then. In Jarkko's list of registered members there's an 'Anna', there's an 'Anne' and there's an 'Annie' - but there's no 'Ann' - so where does he get the name???!!! Please just show me the source. It's no big deal, really, but I just want to sort it out. I just want him to admit he wrote a wicked bare-faced lie or show me the complete message where he got it from. Greg said that Ann offended his deceased father but how could she have done when there is no such person here with that name?
>Geoffrey ~ 1st page, 9th post, 8th paragraph down from the beginning of this thread.
>
>"Absent father" -- well, that's interesting. Military dads are absent, almost by definition, because their allegiance is elsewhere, you might say they are serving false gods, leaving their kids to pick up the pieces. As you describe so well."
Hello. Thank you. Where does it come from? Why did Greg say that Ann wrote it - and why is everybody afraid to show me? Please can you help me: I cannot see where Ann is attributed as the author. Why is everybody saying Ann wrote it yet nobody can tell me how they know she wrote it or show me where or when it appeared? All I can see is that a person called 'humanponysss2000' wrote it. I don't understand why Greg said it was Ann. What is he talking about? Ann didn't do it - show me where he got it from. Who is humanponysss2000? That's not Ann - where does he get the notion that Ann wrote it? She never did it. Show me where it says that Ann wrote it. He is lying out of his back teeth she didn't come here and write that. Are you going to believe me or Greg? What beats me is why everybody automatically goes onto his side and pretends I'm the one who is dim and I keep asking where he got Ann's message from or where he saw it was written by her and people pretend they don't understand my question. In Greg's letter he quotes Ann as being the author of: "Absent father" -- well, that's interesting. Military dads are absent . . ." etc. but where does it say Ann wrote it? Can you see her name anywhere because I'm damned if I can. This is unacceptable enough, but what's worse is that I ask a question in plain Queen's English and everybody keeps showing me where Greg wrote it. I want to see where Ann wrote it. I want to see where he took it from. On my screen, earlier in this very thread, I read the following by that weasel Greg:
-------------------------------------------------
>Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:25 am Post subject:
>
>Ann wrote:
>[quote] "Absent father" -- well, that's interesting.
Military dads are absent, almost by definition,
because their allegiance is elsewhere, you might say
they are serving false gods, leaving their kids
to pick up the pieces. As you describe so well. [end of quote]
>
>I am not sure. But I get the feeling that you got the wrong impression, about a couple of things in what I wrote. First, about my father.
>
>My father was never in the military (-except in WWII). And he'd be very offended if anyone said he was . . . etc., etc., etc.
-------------------------------------------------
Why does he say that Ann wrote the upper paragraph? What else did she write, and to whom? It is nowhere on this site to be found except in his mind. He invented it. That little whelk actually sat there and made up the whole damned story and thought he'd got clean away with it. The fact is that Ann did not write that and I defy anyone to show me where she wrote it. It's fiction. Unless I'm very mistaken Greg succumbed to mischievousness and concocted the entire thing up. He fabricated it. Ask him where he got it from, then. In Jarkko's list of registered members there's an 'Anna', there's an 'Anne' and there's an 'Annie' - but there's no 'Ann' - so where does he get the name???!!! Please just show me the source. It's no big deal, really, but I just want to sort it out. I just want him to admit he wrote a wicked bare-faced lie or show me the complete message where he got it from. Greg said that Ann offended his deceased father but how could she have done when there is no such person here with that name?
-
humanponysss2000
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:06 am
- Location: ponyland
- Contact:
humanponysss is not really Ann, unless....
But could Geoffry really be "Greg"?
And why do you need to know??
Everyone who lived through the 60s is probably a multiple personality
That's why I think we need to use a multiplicity of approaches to Beautiful Losers
It has been said that LC was not in his own "right mind" when he wrote it
I think this goes for the rest of us as well
Weapons of Mass Destruction take many forms
How can we take sides when we are all shattered?
I never meant to insult anybody's dear old Dad, but nevertheless: Dads have gotten us into a mess of trouble with their military "intelligence" which is anything but
And why do you need to know??
Everyone who lived through the 60s is probably a multiple personality
That's why I think we need to use a multiplicity of approaches to Beautiful Losers
It has been said that LC was not in his own "right mind" when he wrote it
I think this goes for the rest of us as well
Weapons of Mass Destruction take many forms
How can we take sides when we are all shattered?
I never meant to insult anybody's dear old Dad, but nevertheless: Dads have gotten us into a mess of trouble with their military "intelligence" which is anything but
Give me land, lots of land
Under starry skies above
Under starry skies above
Re: humanponysss is not really Ann, unless....
humanponysss2000 wrote:
[Post subject: "humanponysss is not really Ann, unless...."]
>But could Geoffrey really be "Greg"?
Everybody knows I'm not Greg. I am never anybody else unless I am being mobbed by some stupid-looking half-baked git who has nothing else to do but home in and make some bird-brained comment on any message I post. That seems to have subsided - so now I have no cause to adopt a new identity.
>And why do you need to know??
Why do I need to know? For goodness sake; I do not need to give a reason why I need to know. Greg quoted Ann and I have a perfectly natural right to ask from where the quote was taken. Is this Russia? Who are you? What is your name and why did Greg call you Ann?
[Post subject: "humanponysss is not really Ann, unless...."]
>But could Geoffrey really be "Greg"?
Everybody knows I'm not Greg. I am never anybody else unless I am being mobbed by some stupid-looking half-baked git who has nothing else to do but home in and make some bird-brained comment on any message I post. That seems to have subsided - so now I have no cause to adopt a new identity.
>And why do you need to know??
Why do I need to know? For goodness sake; I do not need to give a reason why I need to know. Greg quoted Ann and I have a perfectly natural right to ask from where the quote was taken. Is this Russia? Who are you? What is your name and why did Greg call you Ann?
Geoffrey,
If you seriously did miss a connection somewhere, I will put you out of your misery. The mystery woman Ann is Ann Diamond who is currently posting here under the monicker of humanponysss2000 Her identity came out somewhere on another thread which she began.
I hope this helps, and I hope that your beloved Suki gets better soon.
Margaret,
another cat lover.
If you seriously did miss a connection somewhere, I will put you out of your misery. The mystery woman Ann is Ann Diamond who is currently posting here under the monicker of humanponysss2000 Her identity came out somewhere on another thread which she began.
I hope this helps, and I hope that your beloved Suki gets better soon.
Margaret,
another cat lover.
margaret wrote:
>If you seriously did miss a connection somewhere, I will put you out of your misery. The mystery woman Ann is Ann Diamond who is currently posting here under the monicker of humanponysss2000. Her identity came out somewhere on another thread which she began. I hope this helps, and I hope that your beloved Suki gets better soon.
Oh, then Greg must have known this. Are you sure you're not just trying to smooth things over? If this is a lie I will find out. It has happened that even a nice person has told a lie in order to keep the peace, and that's ok in a way, but really it's often unwise to forfeit your better judgement in the cause of harmony - because the truth has a nasty habit of eventually surfacing, Margaret. And when it does you wish you'd been honest right from the start. So, are you sure this 'humanponysss2000' person is called Ann Diamond? Who would have such a surname - nobody in any telephone directory I've ever seen. Well, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and thank you sincerely for being the one person willing to help me. Is she Jewish? I ask because I know that it is a Jewish tradition to adopt surnames relating to precious metals or gemstones. Why I don't know. Thank you, Margaret. I will not forget this.
>If you seriously did miss a connection somewhere, I will put you out of your misery. The mystery woman Ann is Ann Diamond who is currently posting here under the monicker of humanponysss2000. Her identity came out somewhere on another thread which she began. I hope this helps, and I hope that your beloved Suki gets better soon.
Oh, then Greg must have known this. Are you sure you're not just trying to smooth things over? If this is a lie I will find out. It has happened that even a nice person has told a lie in order to keep the peace, and that's ok in a way, but really it's often unwise to forfeit your better judgement in the cause of harmony - because the truth has a nasty habit of eventually surfacing, Margaret. And when it does you wish you'd been honest right from the start. So, are you sure this 'humanponysss2000' person is called Ann Diamond? Who would have such a surname - nobody in any telephone directory I've ever seen. Well, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and thank you sincerely for being the one person willing to help me. Is she Jewish? I ask because I know that it is a Jewish tradition to adopt surnames relating to precious metals or gemstones. Why I don't know. Thank you, Margaret. I will not forget this.