Hi Diane...at long last I reply... well sort of.
Actually you make your points so well I dont really have much argument to offer.
But instinctively I somehow feel that the worlds so vastly different as theirs and ours cannot co-exist in a state of quiecense without entropy and diffusion occurring and without our active willingness to prevent that diffusion. That is, the rest of us have to actively want to let them live in that state. So basically the 'modern' world become their zookeepers.
You mentioned about the Andamans tribes being affected by the tsunami in your pm. Well I do know that the indian airforce tried to airdrop food packets in the dense forests in the islands without intruding. No doubt it was well-intentioned but under natural circumstances these tribes would be left to their own devices to survive or not by such a natural disaster. I dont know if the tribes actually got to the food packets or not (in fact nobody knows and furthermore nobody really knows their diet in the first place, and what would they make of polythene packets) but the point is if they did then already the modern world is interfering with their natural destiny.
The other point I want to make is we know very very little about these tribes precisely because they are isolated. Often it is mentioned (i think by yourself too) that we can learn a lot about our past by observing them.
But how? The very act of observing these tribes to learn more about our past will involve contact which means we will be influencing them with our culture too. They will then no longer be isolated. As they say in high school chemistry you cannot observe the position and velocity of an electron without disturbing those quantities it simply by the act of measuring them (or something like that).
Your ancestors and my ancestors were once such isolated tribes just like everybody elses until they got assimilated by a more dominant 'civilization'. No doubt the transition was painful and bloody for a few generations. But am I losing sleep over it today? Nope...I just get on with my life and very glad with where I'm at in the 21st century world (no doubt my friend bossman has other thoughts about that). But it is the way of the world.
As you have mentioned somewhere that the idea of the noble savage is a myth. Those who are clamoring for the simpler, wilder ways close to earth and nature - I read somewhere that the nomadic bushmen of africa leave their old behind to die because being nomadic by nature old folks would simply drag them down and threaten their survival in the wilds.
Very logical and practical.....under the circumstances. I'll take the health care system here any day even with all its flaws.
Well anyway thats what I wanted to say I guess....I am not trying to contradict your arguments directly becoz they are very sound but just my thoughts on it.
I do believe Captain Picard and his merry crew have thoroughly investigated this matter from every angle and in a very philosophical manner. Can't remember which episode though....if I find out I'll let you know.
Some call it Australia Day
To all Cohenites especially Kush,
I am only human and I make mistakes. Please forgive my nasty comments. I've repented for 2 days.
In peace
Boss
I am only human and I make mistakes. Please forgive my nasty comments. I've repented for 2 days.
In peace
Boss
Last edited by Boss on Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
I've enjoyed reading this discussion [and will stay out of the discord between Kush and Boss].
Actually, Diane, this was a lift in some undefinable way...
... "Don't worry, their time's coming. Won't be long now."
I agree with what you're saying about doing all we can to assist in allowing the indigenous populations remain in their original state, although as Kush has noted, doing this can be difficult. The MREs ~ what an outrageous sight that had to be for them. Would they even think there might be food inside!?!
Well, I wish we could make everything okay for these people. "Zookeepers" who don't create fences and have no keys can't be all bad.
~ Lizzy
Actually, Diane, this was a lift in some undefinable way...
Makes me wonder how many universe beings are checking their watches and conferringIn fact I imagine the universe singing, some time in the future, "got along without you before I met you, gonna get along without you now...".
... "Don't worry, their time's coming. Won't be long now."I agree with what you're saying about doing all we can to assist in allowing the indigenous populations remain in their original state, although as Kush has noted, doing this can be difficult. The MREs ~ what an outrageous sight that had to be for them. Would they even think there might be food inside!?!
Well, I wish we could make everything okay for these people. "Zookeepers" who don't create fences and have no keys can't be all bad.
~ Lizzy
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linda_lakeside
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It was the episode in which there was a happy ending. Either that one, or the other one. Can't remember either.I do believe Captain Picard and his merry crew have thoroughly investigated this matter from every angle and in a very philosophical manner. Can't remember which episode though....if I find out I'll let you know.
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Diane
Hi Kush,
I don't think we necessarily have to be 'zookeepers' to allow tribal people their space, just to plan future developments with regard to their interests. Like you say, the will would have to be there, and I doubt that it is, sadly.
The Himba tribe in Namibia are an example. For some years they have lived under the threat of a giant dam being built on the Kunene River to generate hydroelectric power. Clearly the world is on the brink of an energy crisis, so such projects are inevitable, and needed. But read these words, by a Namibian government official:
I am grateful for my life in the 21st Century too, but the evidence that we are consuming the world's resources faster than they can be replaced is a wake-up call that our comfortable lives may be at the expense of future generations. If we have lived a simpler way of life in the past, it is not inconceivable that we could make do with less heating, less food, and less 'things' in the future, and, gasp, even be happy that way. I think I even read somewhere that Leonard himself prefers the simple life .
Anyway, I could rattle on about this subject ad infinitum, so I will shut up for now.
Lizzy said:
I think such universe beings ( ) are supremely chilled about the whole thing. I once heard a talk by a Buddhist teacher who asked, "Does anyone think the Universe is anything other than the way it is supposed to be?". It is the kind of question that makes you relax, isn't it?
Linda L said:
.
As for this talk of Star Trek, I have sometimes been tempted to quote the following, elsewhere on this site. As someone who is not au fait with poetry analysis, but enjoys reading the words here of those of you who are, it does sum up how I sometimes feel:
"I was attempting to ascertain the meaning of the lyrics." -- Spock
"It's a song, you green-blooded...Vulcan. You don't analyse it. The point is you have a good time singing it." -- McCoy
See you later,
Diane
I don't think we necessarily have to be 'zookeepers' to allow tribal people their space, just to plan future developments with regard to their interests. Like you say, the will would have to be there, and I doubt that it is, sadly.
The Himba tribe in Namibia are an example. For some years they have lived under the threat of a giant dam being built on the Kunene River to generate hydroelectric power. Clearly the world is on the brink of an energy crisis, so such projects are inevitable, and needed. But read these words, by a Namibian government official:
This is the prevailing attitude of officialdom in most places, it seems to me. If the dam is built, the peaceful Himba's cattle grazing lands will be flooded, and they will lose their livelihoods. Some of the younger members of the tribe may gain employment, but dispossession, crime and prostitution is likely to be the lot of the remainder. Another of the tribe's concerns is that their ancestral burial grounds will be flooded. They keep fires burning on the graves of their ancestors, 'eternal flames', and it does not take much imagination to realise how devastating this threatened development will be to these people. It is a kind of genocide by default.The Trade and Industry Minister Hidipo Hamutenya told the BBC that "They (the Himba) need... to cope with the vagaries of nature -- the heat and the cold -- by putting on what everyone else has -- ties and suits, rather than being half naked and half dressed."
Some tribal practices are quite abhorrent, for example, many African tribes practice female genital mutilation, more euphemistically called female circumcision. Most are fiercely resistant to outside attempts to educate them about the abusive nature of such practices, which are an important part of their culture. Now here I am having an argument with myself, because what a clash of views that is - basic human rights vs centuries of culture. I think I read that at least one African tribe has adopted a 'circumcision in words' ceremony for its young girls making the transition to adulthood, as result of their women becoming more educated, and thank God for that 'civilising' influence.As you have mentioned somewhere that the idea of the noble savage is a myth. Those who are clamoring for the simpler, wilder ways close to earth and nature - I read somewhere that the nomadic bushmen of africa leave their old behind to die because being nomadic by nature old folks would simply drag them down and threaten their survival in the wilds.
Very logical and practical.....under the circumstances. I'll take the health care system here any day even with all its flaws.
I am grateful for my life in the 21st Century too, but the evidence that we are consuming the world's resources faster than they can be replaced is a wake-up call that our comfortable lives may be at the expense of future generations. If we have lived a simpler way of life in the past, it is not inconceivable that we could make do with less heating, less food, and less 'things' in the future, and, gasp, even be happy that way. I think I even read somewhere that Leonard himself prefers the simple life
.Anyway, I could rattle on about this subject ad infinitum, so I will shut up for now.
Lizzy said:
Actually, Diane, this was a lift in some undefinable way...
Quote:
In fact I imagine the universe singing, some time in the future, "got along without you before I met you, gonna get along without you now...".
Makes me wonder how many universe beings are checking their watches and conferring ... "Don't worry, their time's coming. Won't be long now."
I think such universe beings (
) are supremely chilled about the whole thing. I once heard a talk by a Buddhist teacher who asked, "Does anyone think the Universe is anything other than the way it is supposed to be?". It is the kind of question that makes you relax, isn't it? Linda L said:
Hi Linda, cool to see you around. I always love the feeling of companionship I get with people who don't remember thingsIt was the episode in which there was a happy ending. Either that one, or the other one. Can't remember either.
.As for this talk of Star Trek, I have sometimes been tempted to quote the following, elsewhere on this site. As someone who is not au fait with poetry analysis, but enjoys reading the words here of those of you who are, it does sum up how I sometimes feel:
"I was attempting to ascertain the meaning of the lyrics." -- Spock
"It's a song, you green-blooded...Vulcan. You don't analyse it. The point is you have a good time singing it." -- McCoy
See you later,
Diane
Diane....just a short note if I may recommend the Sept 2005 issue of Scientific American. The entire issue is titled "Crossroads for Planet Earth" and among other things discusses how one might balance the need for resources/energy with leaving natural resources alone. Here is the link to it: I am positive you will enjoy and appreciate it (if you havent already seen it)
http://www.sciam.com/issue.cfm?issueDate=Sep-05
http://www.sciam.com/issue.cfm?issueDate=Sep-05
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Diane
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linda_lakeside
- Posts: 3857
- Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:08 pm
- Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea..
...The Sci. Am. issue is not online though...you have to backorder it or find it somewhere.
The story of the Namibian tribe reminded me of some lyrics that almost read like a prayer....
Bless this water, Bless this land
Give us food to eat
Let our herds span the hills
Let them graze in peace
If soldiers march through our fields
Give them eyes to see
Children playing in the sand
Singing songs in the north wind
And we will praise your Name
And we will praise your Name
- Johnny Clegg
Terrific. If I'd thought of it first I'd have it as my signature."I was attempting to ascertain the meaning of the lyrics." -- Spock
"It's a song, you green-blooded...Vulcan. You don't analyse it. The point is you have a good time singing it." -- McCoy
The story of the Namibian tribe reminded me of some lyrics that almost read like a prayer....
Bless this water, Bless this land
Give us food to eat
Let our herds span the hills
Let them graze in peace
If soldiers march through our fields
Give them eyes to see
Children playing in the sand
Singing songs in the north wind
And we will praise your Name
And we will praise your Name
- Johnny Clegg
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Diane