relation Cohen-chansonniers, does Cohen know Barbara's work

[Antonio]

Ligthning:

I wish to help, but same thing happens when I try to translate into Spanish: I also find something like "to die just to die", and I get a bit confused: maybe it has another meaning, or it is just a way of speaking, a formed phrase?

When you want to translate and you open the meaning of some sentence, it's like Pandora's box: you never now what wind is getting free!

best wishes

[lizzytysh]

Hi Lightning ~

Even though I understand what Barbara is going for regarding an early death, to be remembered as Marilyn Monroe was, who will now be forever beautiful, I sure can't help on the possible meaning or intent of the phrase you're questioning.

However, unrelated in any direct sense, I'm reminded of the phrase here that something "is to die for" ~ meaning it's something that's highly desirable... yet wouldn't you want to live, wouldn't it in fact be necessary to live, to enjoy such a thing? So, why don't we say, "is to live for"? Nope!

~ Lizzy

[Antonio]

I dare to post another lyric by Barbara, "Sid'Amour-à-mort", concerning people with aids and the solitude they live and die; it's a compassive song about people who are sich and in despair, but apparentely it's a love song, it has the conventions of a love song; finally, a tender love song for those who suffer.

Si s'Aimer d'Amour,
C'est mourir d'Aimer,
Sont mourus d'Amour,
Sida Sidannés,
Les Damnés d'Amour,
A mourir d'Aimer,
Ils sont morts d'Amour,
D'Amour Sidanné,

O Sida Sida,
Danger Sida,
O Sida Sida,
Sid'Amour à Mort,
O Sida, Sid'assassin recherché,
Mais qui a mis l'Amour à Mort,

Mon Amour malade,
Ma douleur d'Aimer,
Mon Damné d'Amour,
Sida Sidanné
A vouloir t'Aimer,
Amour à mourir,
J'en mourrais peut-être,
Amour Sidanné,

O Sida Sida,
Danger Sida,
O Sid'Amour à Mort,
Maladie d'Amour,
Où l'on meurt d'Aimer,
Seul et sans Amour,
Sid'abandonné,

A pouvoir encore,
S'Aimer d'Amour,
A en mourir d'Aimer,
A guérir ce mal d'Amour,
Qui nous a fait mourir,
Sid'abandonné,

Si s'Aimer d'Amour,
C'est mourir d'Aimer,
Sont mourus d'Amour,
Seuls et Sidannés,
Les Damnés d'Amour,
A vouloir s'Aimer,
Ils sont morts d'Amour,
Sid'assassinés.

[Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan]

Lightning,
Actually I think I prefer, "Sire little bastards".
Kevin

[lightning]

Antonio,
Barbara's AIDS love song is black romanticism to perfection.
I think I figured out A Mourir pour Mourir by actually listening to her sing it: For emphasis she says approximately the same thing twice as if there should have been a comma between the two phrases: " For to die, as regards to dying, I prefer a tender age" is what it seems like she is singing. Pour mourir has an internal rhyme which she may have intended. This teaches me once again to listen to chanson, not just read it.

[Tchocolatl]

'Allez donc vous faire lanlaire" I found in one of my argot dictionaries, translated as "Go to glory," and "me vertige" may be a contraction of "me donne le vertige" or gives me vertigo, dizziness. I can imagine the trouble non-anglophones have with Cohen or Dylan and the kind of distortions and projections that occur.
The funniest mistranslation I've found is on Rod McKuen's issue of a Brel LP with Amsterdam where the English translator translates "ramenent leurs bataves" as "sire little bastards." It means "lead their ships back." What an embarassment! Same translator for La Fanette heard "Si elles en souviennt les vagues vous diront" as "the sky remembers......".
But, though much is lost in translation, even more is lost in lack of translation which is why I keep translating.

It is "si elles s'en souviennent les vagues vous diront". Maybe this was an adaptation more than a translation (I mean if waves can remimber, the sky can too).

"Allez vous faire lallaire" could be also this, in other words "Allez vous faire foutre" which is closer to "f&ck you". Maybe "glory" implies some "morging glory" meaning which was previously discussed in another thread, here.

Personally I find the weird conclusion that anybody would have difficulty to translate Cohen and Dylan because you have difficulties to translate some French songs, well, I think this is a weird conclusion.

But.

Cohen is difficult, yes. Sometimes it is impossible to translate without loosing some things, because or example, the English words mean 2 or 3 things and in French it keeps just 1 meaning and have 2 or 3 others than the English one. But not always. Sometimes the magic is fully there. Anyway, the exercice of translation shed always more light on the piece of art. When it is done wiht respect ans seriously. It is a sacred act like every act of life. In my eyes.

Not respectful enough translators may be cursed but the others should be helped (if they agree) not bashed. (well I know some people like to hurt others just for fun, but i don't agree )

[nila]

of course translations are a great thing if they're done serieusly, I'm the first who will agree with you about this! But it can never be the same, as you say, that's impossible. I don't know any translation of Brel, neighter in German nor in English, who keeps really as close as possible to the original. Naturally, it's specially difficult with songs, you have to conserve the rhytm and all...

[lizzytysh]

Personally I find the weird conclusion that anybody would have difficulty to translate Cohen and Dylan because you have difficulties to translate some French songs, well, I think this is a weird conclusion.

But.

I'm not sure whether this refers to my own comment, but it would seem to, so I'll respond to it thus. I can't figure how this might be considered a "weird conclusion," when there was not a direct cause-effect put forth, but merely an "imagine how difficult..." thought, predicated upon another, different language, translation difficulty.

When Leonard's words, concepts, symbology, and widely-varied references, can prove most difficult to paraphrase, describe, interpret, or analyze ~ in English ~ same language to same language ~ the thought of trying to choose between all the possibilities, even before finding what one might consider to be the correct terms or phrases in another language ~ yes ~ extremely difficult and worthy of mention. Not weird, at all .

Dylan's lyrics have also not always been so straightforward, for example "Ballad of a Thin Man" ~ so, when the lyrics of Barbara apparently are considered to be at least more straightforward, as a norm, and difficulties arise even there, with a single phrase being used as an example here ~ yes ~ my mind begins to scan the landscape of Leonard's words. For me, any weirdness would be related to not recognizing the difficulties of translation of Cohen's and Dylan's work, when the intent is accuracy of meaning, rather than merely word on word.

~ Lizzy

[lightning]

What Lizzytysh is saying is that Cohen and Dylan ( among other poets) are often difficult for native speakers. We then imagine how hard they must be for people who learned English in school as a second language. Some day we will work our way out of this tower of Babel now that the distances between us that created language differences have been shortened. I am constantly amazed by how good the English is of foreign contributors to this forum. Language education must be much better where you are or only the linguists among you can try to understand Cohen and express yourselves.

[lizzytysh]

Exactly, Lightning... and I agree on the admirable writing/speaking of English, by those who come here, but were not born into the language. I'm not sure how judgmentalism [on the part of the native, English speakers here] on that issue keeps periodically getting put forth as a reality. I've never ridiculed or made fun of how someone expresses themselves in English here, though I regularly, wholeheartedly embrace my enjoyment of the results of their word choices. There is a huge difference in these perspectives. It's the charm of speaking to people from other lands. As I've said before, I would hope I come across half as charmingly, when I attempt the native languages of others. Perhaps, Henning can be a barometer of that, come August . The gutturals, on top of the word choices, will be more than enough challenge ! And ~ oh, yes ~ I do know how to laugh at myself! Good thing .

~ Lizzy

[Antonio]

As I work as a tranlator, both from English and French into Spanish, I can assure you the difficulties are great! Sometimes you find yourself acting the goat around an expression that is merely impossible to translate properly. Cohen, Dylan, French singers, I find similar difficulties when I try to abord them. You always miss subtle things, nuances, tastes; although I understand well the meaning, the next step, re-create it in your own languague, often is hellish. Of course, for me translate from English to french and viceversa is almost impossible, as I only domine well Spanish. It's a pity, but sometimes I feel a bit frustrated because I really can't express my thoughts: condemned to write as a kid, I can't disccuss in your level!

Quite interesting all the things you say

[Antonio]

Talking about other musicians, I open another small window: Paolo Conte. I hope you know him. Singer-songwriter and also pianist, he has been rewarded, as Cohen, with the gift of a golden voice. Delicious! Well known in Europe, I hope his fame has extended to the States (not sure of this). He makes a mixture of jazz, italian and french song with cabaret inflexiones and often sudamerican rithms (tango, habanera, pasodoble). A great sense of humour and an innate musician. The surprise is that he is also a lawyer, and that he confess this is not a mess, from a psichological point of view. Quite amazing!

[lizzytysh]

Hi Antonio ~

Your ways of expressing yourself in English are wonderful! It always amazes me how non-native English speakers, when speaking of themselves, diminish their effectiveness in communicating. The depth of your thoughts and thought processes still come through with what you say and the ways you choose to say it. When I use the word "charming," it is not to say simple or like a kid. You express yourself here as a very serious and well-informed adult, and you have absolutely nothing for which to apologize. Your messages come through with the words you choose, regardless. Please know and rest in that.

Yesterday, I began listening to Barbara . Today, I am continuing . Various 'theories' have begun to run through my mind as to voice choices and preferences by males vs. females, perhaps initially societally driven, but later adapted to personal choice. I got a flash of 'insight' into this possibility this past summer, in a relatively unrelated, but related, situation.

My hat is off to you and all other translators, and those who attempt it. It takes very little in that direction to know the absolute truth of what you are saying about the process. My only recent attempt was with regard to the [apparently] children's rendition of the suggested, new, French national anthem. ~ That really covers what I have to say on how it went; and I was dedicated to 'getting it right' . Even so... extremely difficult task!

~ Lizzy

[lightning]

Which Barbara CDs LPs or MP3s are you listening to? What songs?

[lizzytysh]

It's a compilation on cd, Lightning ~ It's a painstakingly rendered "Anthology 1964-1974" [title Antonio's given it], and I'll be more than happy [as you know ] to make you a copy, if you like. Any misspellings, please correct, so that I can. It's easy for me to misread someone else's writing, no matter how clear it may actually be . I know people have the same challenge with mine, and Antonio's is much clearer than mine [as you also should know on that, too ].

Thank you very, very much, Antonio . I am enjoying Barbara's voice and music immensely !

The songs are:

1. Au coeur de la nuit
2. Je ne sais pas dire
3. A peine
4. Mon enfance
5. Chaque fois
6. Parce que (je t'aime)
7. Pierre
8. Gueule de nuit
9. Le bel age
10. Une petite cautate
11. La solitude
12. Des grand reviendras-tu?
13. Gottengen
14. Le boer de Saint-Amand
15. Mareienbad
16. Le sommeil
17. Mes hommes
18. Marie Cheverance
19. Les repaces
20. Ma plus belle histoire d'amour
21. Attendez que ma joie revienne
22. Nautes
23. A mourir pour mourir


~ Lizzy