Phil Spector
Of course I'm for real, LP ~ I'm extremely glad that this did not happen to Leonard. How could one [at least this one] be otherwise? It doesn't mean I'm glad it did to her. As for the pun that first occurred, and the one that followed, a pun is a pun is a pun. They always come from somewhere....they gotta! Simply explaining the origins of mine. Everything anyone writes will almost always reveal something about them....it works better for me than vacuous writing. Did you think you hit on a new concept?
Last edited by lizzytysh on Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I too find humor of some one's tragic death distasteful. I don't understand it at all. Jay Leno had a joke last night, not about the victim but Phil Spector. Jay said "Phil Spector went from the wall of sound to the chair of electricity". That I found funny. I guess humor must be and individual's taste.
Linda
not realy important, but i felt i should mention,
lyzzytysh wrote:
it's obviously a mistake based on my name (in croatia it's not uncommon for a male name to end on an A - ex. Matija, Ivica, Vanja...). no offense taken.
JURICA
lyzzytysh wrote:
well, i'm actually a HE - male.Jurica makes an excellent point about cheap jokes.....after all, we are as likely to be born as to die; and as likely to die as to be born. Death should be exempt from puns? Your cheap joke should be better, more acceptable, than mine? And, as she said,
it's obviously a mistake based on my name (in croatia it's not uncommon for a male name to end on an A - ex. Matija, Ivica, Vanja...). no offense taken.
JURICA
I have received several emails asking about the story of
Spector holding Leonard at gunpoint, so here it is (copied and
pasted from Carter Page's site -- it's a part of a BBC interview):
Jarkko
Leonard Cohen: "My most bizarre experience with a producer was with Phil Spector, with whom I worked in 1977 or 78, and we produced that grotesque album called Death of a Ladies' Man.
That happened at a very curious time in my life because I was at a very low point, my family was breaking up, I was living in Los Angeles which was a foreign city to me, and I'd lost control, as I say, of my family, of my work, and my life, and it was a very very dark period. And when he got into the studio it was clear that he was an eccentric, but I didn't know that he was mad. He's not mad any longer, I've spoken to him on the phone recently, he's really quite reasonable and calm, but we were, you know, I was flipped out at the time and he certainly was flipped out, my flipped out was, you know, the expression was withdrawal and melancholy, and his was megalomania and insanity, and the kind of devotion to armaments, to weapons, that was really intolerable. With Phil, especially in the state that he found himself, which was post-Wagnerian, I would say Hitlerian, the atmosphere was one of guns, I mean that's really what was going on, was guns. The music was subsidiary an enterprise, you know people were armed to the teeth, all his friends, his bodyguards, and everybody was drunk, or intoxicated on other items, so you were slipping over bullets, and you were biting into revolvers in your hamburger. There were guns everywhere. Phil was beyond control, I remember the violin player, the fiddle player in the song Fingerprints, Phil didn't like the way he was playing, walked out into the studio and pulled a gun on the guy. Now this was, he was a country boy, and he knew a lot about guns, he just put his fiddle in his case and walked out. That was the last we'd seen of him. And at a certain point Phil approached me with a bottle of Manishewitz kosher red wine in one hand and a 45 in the other, put his arm around my shoulder and shoved a revolver into my neck and said, "Leonard, I love you". I said, "I hope you do, Phil"."
Spector holding Leonard at gunpoint, so here it is (copied and
pasted from Carter Page's site -- it's a part of a BBC interview):
Jarkko
Leonard Cohen: "My most bizarre experience with a producer was with Phil Spector, with whom I worked in 1977 or 78, and we produced that grotesque album called Death of a Ladies' Man.
That happened at a very curious time in my life because I was at a very low point, my family was breaking up, I was living in Los Angeles which was a foreign city to me, and I'd lost control, as I say, of my family, of my work, and my life, and it was a very very dark period. And when he got into the studio it was clear that he was an eccentric, but I didn't know that he was mad. He's not mad any longer, I've spoken to him on the phone recently, he's really quite reasonable and calm, but we were, you know, I was flipped out at the time and he certainly was flipped out, my flipped out was, you know, the expression was withdrawal and melancholy, and his was megalomania and insanity, and the kind of devotion to armaments, to weapons, that was really intolerable. With Phil, especially in the state that he found himself, which was post-Wagnerian, I would say Hitlerian, the atmosphere was one of guns, I mean that's really what was going on, was guns. The music was subsidiary an enterprise, you know people were armed to the teeth, all his friends, his bodyguards, and everybody was drunk, or intoxicated on other items, so you were slipping over bullets, and you were biting into revolvers in your hamburger. There were guns everywhere. Phil was beyond control, I remember the violin player, the fiddle player in the song Fingerprints, Phil didn't like the way he was playing, walked out into the studio and pulled a gun on the guy. Now this was, he was a country boy, and he knew a lot about guns, he just put his fiddle in his case and walked out. That was the last we'd seen of him. And at a certain point Phil approached me with a bottle of Manishewitz kosher red wine in one hand and a 45 in the other, put his arm around my shoulder and shoved a revolver into my neck and said, "Leonard, I love you". I said, "I hope you do, Phil"."
From NY Times -February 4, 2003
Leonard Cohen, who worked with him on the 1977 album, "Death of a Ladies Man," said at the time that he had no idea what an ordeal it would be to work with Mr. Spector.
"It's very hard to fight him — he just disappears," Mr. Cohen said. "He was in possession of the tapes; his bodyguard took them back to his house every night. I knew he was mad, but I thought that his madness would be more adorable, on the ordinary, daily level. I love the guy, but he's out of control."
"It's very hard to fight him — he just disappears," Mr. Cohen said. "He was in possession of the tapes; his bodyguard took them back to his house every night. I knew he was mad, but I thought that his madness would be more adorable, on the ordinary, daily level. I love the guy, but he's out of control."
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Lowly Pawn
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2002 3:27 am
Lizzy, you seem to be missing the point. Let me spell it out for you.
Let say, it was Leonard on the other end of the gun when Spector pulled the trigger. Then let's suppose that someone came onto the forum and posted the kind of flippant remark you did. Dismissing his life in three words "this tragic event" all in order to get to the "cute" part. You would raise merry hell.
That's the hypocrisy about all this. Lana was just a nobody, so who cares? You can white-wash it all you want but you trivialized her death just to make a joke.
Lowly Pawn
Let say, it was Leonard on the other end of the gun when Spector pulled the trigger. Then let's suppose that someone came onto the forum and posted the kind of flippant remark you did. Dismissing his life in three words "this tragic event" all in order to get to the "cute" part. You would raise merry hell.
That's the hypocrisy about all this. Lana was just a nobody, so who cares? You can white-wash it all you want but you trivialized her death just to make a joke.
Lowly Pawn
No, I didn't miss the point, Lowly Pawn, but thank you for spelling it out for me, just in case I had. I would not go to where her friends and relatives are and make a pun, primarily related to an album that Leonard Cohen and Phil Spector had made together, and in the course of which Spector's violent nature was manifest. Lana's death was not incidental. However, anyone's death was primary to the pun, which was directed at Spector. Simply because it was a woman's death [not necessarily Lana], all of it came together.....the nature of many forms of humour, Lowly Pawn.......do you want someone to spell out all types of humour for you, as well, in case anyone is offended in the course of it? People get offended and they [in this case, you] have a right to express it.
Perhaps my seeing it and turning it around is related to my having been the copy editor for a small newspaper for 2 years, ~15 years ago. The originators of the paper hired, on a temporary basis as the Managing Editor, a retired journalist who used to work in Washington, D.C., worked overseas, flew on Air Force One [the President's plane], etc. He was also experienced with the details of laying out and putting together a newspaper. After all the stress of obtaining info, writing, correcting, correcting again, layout, etc. ~ the fun, yet still challenging part was devising and inserting the "headlines" on the main page and throughout the paper, still having to meet space and dynamic requirements. He taught us a lot about all of it. Most of our suggestions were benign, yet you would be chagrined at some of the things that came out of all of our mouths [that shadow self you want to deny expression, yet trust me, in one way or another, it will assert itself].....yet it was a great stress reliever and a lot of fun, with a lot of laughter.....and "I can't believe you said that!"s.
Death is part of life, and you're right, I would raise hell because I have a personal investment in Leonard. However, I do know that jokes will be made.....as jokes are made every day everywhere for every reason. The reality is that Leonard could have been on the other end of the pulled trigger. Humour is a healthy coping mechanism. Did I feel some stress, ex post facto, looking back and seeing how real the implied-threat scenario really was? Yes.
Perhaps my seeing it and turning it around is related to my having been the copy editor for a small newspaper for 2 years, ~15 years ago. The originators of the paper hired, on a temporary basis as the Managing Editor, a retired journalist who used to work in Washington, D.C., worked overseas, flew on Air Force One [the President's plane], etc. He was also experienced with the details of laying out and putting together a newspaper. After all the stress of obtaining info, writing, correcting, correcting again, layout, etc. ~ the fun, yet still challenging part was devising and inserting the "headlines" on the main page and throughout the paper, still having to meet space and dynamic requirements. He taught us a lot about all of it. Most of our suggestions were benign, yet you would be chagrined at some of the things that came out of all of our mouths [that shadow self you want to deny expression, yet trust me, in one way or another, it will assert itself].....yet it was a great stress reliever and a lot of fun, with a lot of laughter.....and "I can't believe you said that!"s.
Death is part of life, and you're right, I would raise hell because I have a personal investment in Leonard. However, I do know that jokes will be made.....as jokes are made every day everywhere for every reason. The reality is that Leonard could have been on the other end of the pulled trigger. Humour is a healthy coping mechanism. Did I feel some stress, ex post facto, looking back and seeing how real the implied-threat scenario really was? Yes.
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Lowly Pawn
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2002 3:27 am
Hi LP
I love dark humour, as soon as something happens in the world a joke goes round within 10 minutes. I really loved Maurice Gibb's work but I laughed at some of the jokes that were up and running within the space of a short time. I think the thing is we don't know these people personally and in the grand scheme of things they mean nothing to us. The humour is not directed at the personality but at the events surrounding.
There is a web site whose name escapes me for the moment (I think it is the Darwin Awards) - check it out. It is a selection of bizarre deaths. Really funny.
I might be reading you wrong LP but I think you are on a wind-up.
I love dark humour, as soon as something happens in the world a joke goes round within 10 minutes. I really loved Maurice Gibb's work but I laughed at some of the jokes that were up and running within the space of a short time. I think the thing is we don't know these people personally and in the grand scheme of things they mean nothing to us. The humour is not directed at the personality but at the events surrounding.
There is a web site whose name escapes me for the moment (I think it is the Darwin Awards) - check it out. It is a selection of bizarre deaths. Really funny.
I might be reading you wrong LP but I think you are on a wind-up.
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Lowly Pawn
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2002 3:27 am
Sorry thought you asked whats a grecian urn(from Cambridge International Dictionary of English)
wind someone up (DECEIVE)
phrasal verb [T]
BRITISH INFORMAL
to tell (someone) something that is not true as a joke or in order to annoy them
Are you serious or are you just trying to wind me up?
It's really easy to wind her up because she just believes anything you tell her.
wind-up
[C usually sing]
BRITISH INFORMAL
You can't be serious - is this a wind-up?
wind someone up (DECEIVE)
phrasal verb [T]
BRITISH INFORMAL
to tell (someone) something that is not true as a joke or in order to annoy them
Are you serious or are you just trying to wind me up?
It's really easy to wind her up because she just believes anything you tell her.
wind-up
[C usually sing]
BRITISH INFORMAL
You can't be serious - is this a wind-up?
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Lowly Pawn
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2002 3:27 am
Thanks for the definition.
No I'm not winding anybody up. People should think before they speak so cavilierly about murder.
Perhaps it's not until something like this happens to someone close to you do you understand that what is grief and heartbreak for family and friends is just gossip for others.
Lowly Pawn
No I'm not winding anybody up. People should think before they speak so cavilierly about murder.
Perhaps it's not until something like this happens to someone close to you do you understand that what is grief and heartbreak for family and friends is just gossip for others.
Lowly Pawn
Ahhh...so that's the personal investment that you have, Lowly Pawn. Well, I have also experienced death and murder of friends and loved ones. By no means are you isolated in that regard. However, I think Paula has given you an excellent synopsis of the process surrounding black humour and puns such as this. Another one [not conceived by me], but which I think is even "better" than mine or at least as "good" ~ i.e. "short and sweet" ~ is: "Phil Spector's greatest hit."
I've considered that you might be carrying this on, tongue-in-cheek, akin to Vesuvius's follow-up questions re: "poised," etc. ~ but I prefer to take people at face value regarding their seriousness, until I really feel I know otherwise.
By the way, I did think before I spoke. My lengthy post was an explanation of how it all came together in my mind as I wrote it. It also doesn't come under the category of gossip.
I've considered that you might be carrying this on, tongue-in-cheek, akin to Vesuvius's follow-up questions re: "poised," etc. ~ but I prefer to take people at face value regarding their seriousness, until I really feel I know otherwise.
By the way, I did think before I spoke. My lengthy post was an explanation of how it all came together in my mind as I wrote it. It also doesn't come under the category of gossip.
Thanks from me, also, Jurica.....first for clarifying that you're male vs. female. Second, for the definition, which had you not provided it, I'd have taken to me that Lowly Pawn had taken this about as far as it could go, or needs to go, and should be thinking about "winding it up" [as in concluding it].