Absolutely on your last sentence, Partisan. However, my point was not that they had to make it big....but that many will never make it big, but that, that fact is not necessarily a true reflection of their talent and abilities. Further, that making it big is not necessarily a true reflection of their talent and abilities either....sometimes only a reflection of marketing and the resultant "success." Finally, that making it big and recognition aren't even the point, nor is getting published. Getting published isn't even the final measure of "success," but only a step.
Not all "50+" [figure pulled out of the air] attempts will eventually result in acceptance/success, but many of the "successes" have taken that many. It's along the lines of "All apples are fruit, but not all fruit is apples." Writing is the point. Writing for pleasure, writing for catharsis, writing for whatever. Sharing your writing with others who write can be most pleasurable for all concerned. It doesn't mean you're a great writer, nor does it mean you don't write well. When others want to start judging your skills, then it's most helpful and considerate for them to produce the criteria and yardstick by which they measure, so others can make a fair determination of their conclusions. It goes along with logical thinking.
Leonard has referenced his writing of some early poetry, which he himself deems poor. Few in the poetry section are trying to be "great," but many are trying to share. I've seen some poems there that are clearly part of the individual's personal, cathartic process....and I appreciate reading them and that the person was willing to make themselves vulnerable and share them. Poems are a "format," just as prose is....they are not a high-level spiritual achievement, though some do rise to that level.
Why do you post?
Last edited by lizzytysh on Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
I have posted some messages previously ( many months ago as I recall)about how I find the forum valuable to someone like me who is not a poet but writes poetry.
Up until I was 16 the only literature I studied, in some depth was Macbeth, History of Mr. Polly and the poems of Robert Frost. After that, my time was spent studying Maths, learning how to teach Maths and practising the chords and fingerpicking for 'Suzanne'
After getting the hang of all three my next 20+ years were spent controlling children in classes and learning the chords and fingerpicking for 'Sisters of Mercy'
So as you see, I didn't have too much time to study any more literature or poetry but I did find myself putting pen to paper in an attempt to write poems...mainly the osmosis effect of listening to so many Leonard Cohen songs and also reading (not studying) his poetry.
I wrote dozens of poems in the early 70's and, reading them again now, they are all crap......well, nearly all. I enjoyed writing them though and they bring back fond memories.
I didn't write any more until I found this website and the newsgroup/ message board.
I don't know if my poems are still below par and I'm not writing this for someone to say..'of course not Pete'...I have posted a message before asking for comments and advice (see my 'exclusion' poem) and I found the resulting discussion most rewarding...where else could I have received such free advice?
The poems have also been pivotal to other discussions, not necessarily to do with the poem!
I don't think many of the contributors are looking for the chance to be famous. I would imagine that many would not even think of forwarding their poems to other media or outlets. I, personally, just welcome the opportunity to display my attempts and do not expect readers to enthuse.
I also know that if I intend to post a poem then I have to be quite sure that I have have spent sufficient time on it and it thus becomes a discipline...something which I see lacking in my 70's poems.
Some will like my poems and decide to read future ones if they see my name next to the title..others may have decided not to read any more of mine because they prefer others. It doesn't matter. That's the beauty of the structure of this forum.
If we were all brilliant poets would we all just be posting here anyway??
I am not trying to defend my contributions and I am not being sensitive about anything... I just thought I would give an insight into why one of the poetry writers writes.
Maybe in another 20+ years I will look at these poems again and say ' they're still bloody crap!!'
and one day I may post one of my 70's poems and then you'll be sorry
Pete
Up until I was 16 the only literature I studied, in some depth was Macbeth, History of Mr. Polly and the poems of Robert Frost. After that, my time was spent studying Maths, learning how to teach Maths and practising the chords and fingerpicking for 'Suzanne'
After getting the hang of all three my next 20+ years were spent controlling children in classes and learning the chords and fingerpicking for 'Sisters of Mercy'
So as you see, I didn't have too much time to study any more literature or poetry but I did find myself putting pen to paper in an attempt to write poems...mainly the osmosis effect of listening to so many Leonard Cohen songs and also reading (not studying) his poetry.
I wrote dozens of poems in the early 70's and, reading them again now, they are all crap......well, nearly all. I enjoyed writing them though and they bring back fond memories.
I didn't write any more until I found this website and the newsgroup/ message board.
I don't know if my poems are still below par and I'm not writing this for someone to say..'of course not Pete'...I have posted a message before asking for comments and advice (see my 'exclusion' poem) and I found the resulting discussion most rewarding...where else could I have received such free advice?
The poems have also been pivotal to other discussions, not necessarily to do with the poem!
I don't think many of the contributors are looking for the chance to be famous. I would imagine that many would not even think of forwarding their poems to other media or outlets. I, personally, just welcome the opportunity to display my attempts and do not expect readers to enthuse.
I also know that if I intend to post a poem then I have to be quite sure that I have have spent sufficient time on it and it thus becomes a discipline...something which I see lacking in my 70's poems.
Some will like my poems and decide to read future ones if they see my name next to the title..others may have decided not to read any more of mine because they prefer others. It doesn't matter. That's the beauty of the structure of this forum.
If we were all brilliant poets would we all just be posting here anyway??
I am not trying to defend my contributions and I am not being sensitive about anything... I just thought I would give an insight into why one of the poetry writers writes.
Maybe in another 20+ years I will look at these poems again and say ' they're still bloody crap!!'
and one day I may post one of my 70's poems and then you'll be sorry
Pete
Dear Linda,
Thank you for sticking your neck out for me. I'm sorry it got chopped off.
Dear Sore Loser,
Thank you for your incisive post. You nailed it.
Dear George,
Your "Poetry" may leave a lot to be desired....but you seem to be a kind person and that's what counts. If I am ever in Ireland I would like to buy you a pint or two. (Or three).
Dear Lizzy,
I give up. You have beaten me to a bloody pulp. I know, I know...you will say it was my "choice."
I won't be posting any more. Not because I cannot maneuver my mangled body into position over the keyboard...or because it is too hot in the kitchen...it just isn't worth it. No matter what the subject matter, any future posts by me will carry too much baggage for you. I wouldn't want to be constantly interrogated, second guessed, scrutinized for hidden meanings and in general reduced to a pile of "dots."
Miranda
Thank you for sticking your neck out for me. I'm sorry it got chopped off.
Dear Sore Loser,
Thank you for your incisive post. You nailed it.
Dear George,
Your "Poetry" may leave a lot to be desired....but you seem to be a kind person and that's what counts. If I am ever in Ireland I would like to buy you a pint or two. (Or three).
Dear Lizzy,
I give up. You have beaten me to a bloody pulp. I know, I know...you will say it was my "choice."
I won't be posting any more. Not because I cannot maneuver my mangled body into position over the keyboard...or because it is too hot in the kitchen...it just isn't worth it. No matter what the subject matter, any future posts by me will carry too much baggage for you. I wouldn't want to be constantly interrogated, second guessed, scrutinized for hidden meanings and in general reduced to a pile of "dots."
Miranda
Miranda, I will stick my neck out for good people any time, and it takes more than Lizzytysh to chop it off 
I would ask the people to reread this thread and I ask you who has turned it into something it should never have been turned into (again). I don't happen to think that because of what Miranda and I said that the people who write poetry on the poetry section should feel they shouldn't write there any longer. No this has taken one of those twists and turns again, and by whom?
Yes, Lizzytysh this goes a long way back, I was on both this board and the VP board before you, this thread is perfect example of how it goes. You turn it into a personal attack. You are such a crusader! Yes, Lizzytysh this is personal and I haven't left. (yet)
I am getting as fed up with this as Miranda, but Miranda there are a lot of good people on this board, really.
I would ask the people to reread this thread and I ask you who has turned it into something it should never have been turned into (again). I don't happen to think that because of what Miranda and I said that the people who write poetry on the poetry section should feel they shouldn't write there any longer. No this has taken one of those twists and turns again, and by whom?
Yes, Lizzytysh this goes a long way back, I was on both this board and the VP board before you, this thread is perfect example of how it goes. You turn it into a personal attack. You are such a crusader!
Yes, Lizzytysh this is personal and I haven't left. (yet)I am getting as fed up with this as Miranda, but Miranda there are a lot of good people on this board, really.
Linda
Miranda ~ From condescending to victimized.....what a transformation.
To remind you of your own words, "I think that anyone who puts their 'poetry' out on the internet for others to read had better be able to take the lumps as well as the praise." Interesting that you wouldn't have the same expectation for those [you] who put their criticizing opinions out on the Internet. Welcome to the lumps from me, as you receive the praise of Linda and SoreLoser and whoever else thinks you're just fine to come telling everyone what a terrible writer they are, with only one able to write poetry. Did it ever occur to you just how personal the realm of poetry can be? How much of a person's self can be put into those words? How damaging your judgement can be?
Your final adieu looks like borrowed words from the bandwagon past ~ hence lacking in impact and relevance.
Hidden meanings? Looked pretty blatant to me, Miranda. Why don't you step up to the plate and offer a little analysis with your own pulping action? When you broadside others in a public forum, you might want to be aware that it just may not be fine with everyone there for you to do so. Remove yourself from your pedestal and you'll be fine with me in other postings. You didn't like it yourself when you thought I was criticizing Andrew when I said he knows he has talent ~ and you addressed it immediately. I've found your own criticism sooooooo lacking in substance that perhaps you might consider Poetry 101, 102, and 103 courses prior to assuming the critic role again. Even the professional, paid ones go beyond platitudes and back up what they say with supporting evidence. Try it.
~Lizzytysh
To remind you of your own words, "I think that anyone who puts their 'poetry' out on the internet for others to read had better be able to take the lumps as well as the praise." Interesting that you wouldn't have the same expectation for those [you] who put their criticizing opinions out on the Internet. Welcome to the lumps from me, as you receive the praise of Linda and SoreLoser and whoever else thinks you're just fine to come telling everyone what a terrible writer they are, with only one able to write poetry. Did it ever occur to you just how personal the realm of poetry can be? How much of a person's self can be put into those words? How damaging your judgement can be?
Your final adieu looks like borrowed words from the bandwagon past ~ hence lacking in impact and relevance.
Hidden meanings? Looked pretty blatant to me, Miranda. Why don't you step up to the plate and offer a little analysis with your own pulping action? When you broadside others in a public forum, you might want to be aware that it just may not be fine with everyone there for you to do so. Remove yourself from your pedestal and you'll be fine with me in other postings. You didn't like it yourself when you thought I was criticizing Andrew when I said he knows he has talent ~ and you addressed it immediately. I've found your own criticism sooooooo lacking in substance that perhaps you might consider Poetry 101, 102, and 103 courses prior to assuming the critic role again. Even the professional, paid ones go beyond platitudes and back up what they say with supporting evidence. Try it.
~Lizzytysh
You love the polarization don't you, Linda.....seize it and stoke it at every opportunity. Some grudges just never go away, do they.
Guess what? I'll stick my neck out for "good" people anytime, too.....and just have. "Good"/"bad"....love those polarities, too.
I'm certain the majority of contributors to the poetry thread are not going to be dissuaded from doing so because of your, Miranda's, Sore Loser's, and Partisan's expressed but unsubstantiated opinions. However, that's not even the point.
Yes, Miranda, there are a lot of "good" people on this Board, really....ask Linda, for she can tell you the "good" from the "bad."
~ Lizzytysh
Guess what? I'll stick my neck out for "good" people anytime, too.....and just have. "Good"/"bad"....love those polarities, too.
I'm certain the majority of contributors to the poetry thread are not going to be dissuaded from doing so because of your, Miranda's, Sore Loser's, and Partisan's expressed but unsubstantiated opinions. However, that's not even the point.
Yes, Miranda, there are a lot of "good" people on this Board, really....ask Linda, for she can tell you the "good" from the "bad."
~ Lizzytysh
What a wonder to write words and have people read them. i think one can still hope to be "discovered". It just depends on what you definition of being discovered is. i get discovered all the time.
CNN? I concur. At least balance it with http://motherjones.com in my humble opinion. Money for rope.
I post to find like-minded people but is that even this thread?
Did anybody else's life here suddenly take a dramatic turn and all you ever hoped for was suddenly found soon after hearing Leonard sing for the first time?
CNN? I concur. At least balance it with http://motherjones.com in my humble opinion. Money for rope.
I post to find like-minded people but is that even this thread?
Did anybody else's life here suddenly take a dramatic turn and all you ever hoped for was suddenly found soon after hearing Leonard sing for the first time?
some things should be kept private...
Miranda~ my last word on this subject...What you said about the Poetry forum (posters/poets) was just plain rude and pointedly condescending when you qualified it with your "interesting folk" blurb or somesuch nonsense, like that justified painting all those poems with one stroke of your (negative) opinion. I know you don't know me or how "interesting" i may or may not be. If you are familiar with the others posting on that forum, you can judge how "interesting" they are...but if they are folks you believe to be interesting (ie: worthwhile?) then how does being soooo rude about their writing become a subject to Declare in Public? Thinking something is awful is one thing, but most of us are taught as children that being brutally honest with one's opinion (opinion does not equal truth, by the way) is not always appropriate. This new means of communication (computer), sharing thoughts, ideas, poetry, etc with people across the globe does not negate that etiquette we were (hopefully) taught as children. And you know i am not talking censorship, only manners. I don't know and don't care about the history of Lizzy around these parts. I did see her stepping up to the plate when hurtful words were tossed out like they were Nothing towards folks who do not deserve to be insulted the way they were. At least you could have been diplomatic. Instead the issue was turned into a petty fight over things of the past. It really did not deflect what the real issue was...that someone said something really rude and hurtful in public and walked away as if there should be no accountability to what was said. Like i said before, i have broad shoulders (literally and figuratively) so i am okey doke. I hope others out there with poems on that forum don't let what was said deter them from writing for whatever motives they may have. If it feels good, (and doesn't hurt others) do it. But do think twice about having to deal with the consequences of sharing with strangers around the world. Cheers, Laurie
posting
Was the original question here Why do you post"? or Why do you post on the poetry forum?"
Re: posting
It's the former. I hope nobody got their feelings hurt in here and everybody keeps on talking incessantly(spelling?).Sandra wrote:Was the original question here Why do you post"? or Why do you post on the poetry forum?"
Why my love?
In this year would of been our paradise of hash marks!
Hey Hey SGT. Jack
Meet me down by the railroad track
With your I.V. in your hand
Your gonna be a saving man
-
George.Wright
- Posts: 1874
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 3:37 pm
- Location: Bangor, N.Ireland
This thread
I think Sandra's right, this whole thread has been a question of the Poetry Section. It's getting by far the most popular section to post in. I think some must be jealous of its popularity.
To Wilcoetree a fun few lines of verse, thought it was quite witty you should name the poem "Saving Sgt Jack".
Best wishes to all on this forum, i will continue to post my junk on the most popular section of this site.
Georges
To Wilcoetree a fun few lines of verse, thought it was quite witty you should name the poem "Saving Sgt Jack".
Best wishes to all on this forum, i will continue to post my junk on the most popular section of this site.
Georges
I am a right bad ass, dankish prince and I love my Violet to bits.
George,
I think it sad that the poetry section is the most popular section on the Forum. Just people complimenting each other. Whatever happened to Leonard Cohen?
And I don't really think the poetry section is the most popular anyway. It may have the most entries, but if you look at the number of "views" you will see that hardly anyone is reading the poems.
Very few of the poems get as many as 100 views. Most of them get less than 25. And of those that do receive more than 100 views it is because of some philosophical controversy. So much for popularity.
I know you are the proud papa of the poetry section. But it sure is an ugly baby.
I think it sad that the poetry section is the most popular section on the Forum. Just people complimenting each other. Whatever happened to Leonard Cohen?
And I don't really think the poetry section is the most popular anyway. It may have the most entries, but if you look at the number of "views" you will see that hardly anyone is reading the poems.
Very few of the poems get as many as 100 views. Most of them get less than 25. And of those that do receive more than 100 views it is because of some philosophical controversy. So much for popularity.
I know you are the proud papa of the poetry section. But it sure is an ugly baby.