Make Poverty History

[Tchocolatl]

Hello mdidier, long time no see! Nice to see you again. What can I say? The politically correctness shall not allow to critic the "poors", the "miserables". Some are clinging to the power of the victim (and to the power of the helper) too much that they certainly never let this power go, certainly not easily, and will pause as victim (or helper) should they have to forge an imaginery context of victimization or worst, create it, instead of solving problems in a healthy way.

But not in all situations. It depends. Things would be so easy if they were all blakc and white (mind it, btw, it is like for the wisperers talked about in an another thread, some are goods, some are bad, the wisphering is just a facet - same thing with poors.)

For savage capitalism and its actions, and consequences, this is a well know phenomenon, like Jurica said, everybody knows that, although I would not extend it to all governments and politic persons, but only to savage capitalism - I knew some politicians that were not corrupted and were truly working for the good society/people. I guess that they still have some like them. Our social structures are made of us. Just don't forget it Jurica. They are made of the stuff we are made.

Although I stay on the side of constructive critics, not destructive. But critic is never a bowl of cherries, anyway.

Rob. Right. Wise words again. May it go further and further in the world these tendancies.

Our tax dollars could afford to take care of any problems. It is not a matter of putting the money here or there. It is a matter of using it wisely and honestly. Which is far from being the case. Anyway, money it is just a concept, a mean. We have enough to go explore the space and the ocean, and to care for people and ecosystem.

But it is not just a matter of dollars. Our creativity and work are creating dollars/money/richness. I think that everybody should have the chance to develop their gifts, not just to be takin care of like pets just because they are poor. This is what I meant, also, not that we should not help. (Furthermore when we know how pets are cared of.) In this regard, I think that help should be seen more in the way of this Chinese proverd : "If you love your childrendo not feed them with fish, learn them how to fish".

I'll end with quoting Byron :

'nobody is free until we are all free.'

Cheers everybody!

[Rob]

Today is world debt day. had this message from my trade union this morning.

MAKE POVERTY HISTORYToday is World Debt DayHi

Today is World Debt Day. And today - as on every day - the rich world will demand $100 million from poor countries in debt repayments while poverty is killing 50,000 people every day. What's the point of giving aid with one hand yet taking so much away with the other.

Seven years ago today, 70,000 people formed a human chain around the G8 summit in Birmingham to demand the cancellation of unfair debt. They didn't only make headlines - but made a difference. 12 months later, the same world leaders agreed to cancel $100 million of debts owed by the world's poorest countries. It was a triumph of people power.

In seven weeks the G8 returns to the UK for the first time since they were in Birmingham. Thousands will gather in Edinburgh on July 2nd to call on the leaders of the world's richest nations to Make Poverty History. You can be one of them.

The message is clear:
Enough is enough. There needs to be trade justice, debt cancellation, and more and better aid for the world's poorest countries.

I was moved when Mr Mandela said "Sometimes it falls upon a generation to be great. You can be that generation". It feels like these chances don't come often but this is a real opportunity to make changes in the world.

To find out how you can be involved in the Edinburgh Rally, click here. http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/edinburgh/

Thank you

Dido

P.S. Movie director Anthony Minghella made this film http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/video ... bt512k.flv to highlight the craziness of Africans giving us in debt repayments MORE than we give them in aid. Watch it, and if you can, send it to a friend and urge them to join us.

Rob

[bruna]

Tchocolatl,
I wish I could see it so clearly like you.
There are rich countries in the world, which are full of people who are clever and diligent, and there are poor countries which deserve it, because they are led by corrupt goverments or even dictators.
When the goverments are corrupted, who offered them the money?
Isn´t there any sequentiality between the fact, that some countries grow rich and some countries grow poor?

[jurica]

Isn´t there any sequentiality between the fact, that some countries grow rich and some countries grow poor?

or better yet:
isn't language constructed of binary oppositions? -> therefore: CAN any county be rich without others being poor?

[bruna]

isn't language constructed of binary oppositions? -> therefore: CAN any county be rich without others being poor?[/quote]

I didn´t want to speak about opposites, but about process.
I tried to express, that rich countries don´t have to increase their property just by themselves. It can be at the expense of the poor ones.

[Tchocolatl]

Tchocolatl,
I wish I could see it so clearly like you.
There are rich countries in the world, which are full of people who are clever and diligent, and there are poor countries which deserve it, because they are led by corrupt goverments or even dictators.

How I would like to be so simple sometimes. You know one gets tired to get told one is complecated and too deep (hard)(tough)(sight).

What I mean is what I said : I dream of the day the corrupted goverments of the poor countries will be as caring to their poor people as Mother Teresa. In the meantime, I would be happy if they do care just like me and you.

Is this more clear to you now?

Binary has a good back. Let's blame binary system. What can we do? It is binary system (a kind of god that is almighty? Let me laugh OK?) What an excuse. Wow. How this is suppose to work? There is day and night, all our world is based on binary system, therefore, poors are needed for me to be rich? What a sophism. This is absolutly not logical at all, this binary thing, that we need poor people/countries to make rich people/countries. As I see this, it looks like more that some people are liking too much to dominate to free the ones they are dominating (they would free themselves in same time, but I do not think they are aware of this, I think they love their chains too much, also). Money is a slavery that works good. It could serve other purposes.

Wow. I can not believe my eyes... when you know how the money is wasted in stupidities for military budgets and are stolen by those who are in charge of administrate it. pppffff No more comments.

[bruna]

Excuse me, I hadn´t understood you before. Now I do. My reaction was rather hysterical, because the problem really pisses me off. The worst thing for me is, that there are not many things for me what to do against it.
Everything is binary, ok. I don´t want every poor to get rich in any case. But wasting and poverty it is too much opposite for me. I have read somewhere, that if people in rich countries get over the loss of luxury cosmetics, it would be enough to feed the starvelings.
Well. And I rather don´t want to speak about the way how charity is done in America by all those stupid snobbish parties...

[jurica]

There is day and night, all our world is based on binary system, therefore, poors are needed for me to be rich? What a sophism. This is absolutly not logical at all, this binary thing, that we need poor people/countries to make rich people/countries

I'd also like to be simple, but, unfortunately, as Umerto Ecco said to Milanese cardinal in an open letter: "don't mind us sounding too dificult to ordinary people, they need to learn to think dificult, because the questions they are addressing are dificult and cannot be answered simply".

like i said, binary system in necessary to give a word "rich" quality. i think i wrote about this already on some other thread. all the people cannot be rich, THIS would not be logical. "poors are needed for me to be rich" is absolut logical FACT.

think about it. how did this words form in all of the languages of the world? if there was no private property, if there weren't people who have less and more than others, would these words exist?

and what is rich?

i have all the food i need, a lot of gadgest for 'around the house'... if i lived in Victorian England, don't you think i'd be considered rich?

rich/poor is absolutely a matter of ratios. you see yourself rich or poor not on the absoluty of your condition, but in relation to other people you see around yourself.

[bruna]

Jurica,
let me be a little ironic. I don´t think that your thoughts are as complicated and I even don´t think that they are original.
Yes, for intellectual everything is relative, even property.
But there are people on this planet, who are dying by hunger. And it isn´t relative is it?

[Tchocolatl]

Bruna, the problem is worst, actually, because we can afford the lux AND the necessary as well. It is just a matter of administration. Rotten administration, rotten word. Corrupted people rotten administration. All begins by one.

Jurica, to tell you the truth you post regarding social matters are icing me of frightning. It is too much like some have the right to live and some must be "cleaned" from the surface of the Earth as sub-human. You may reply that there is a difference between killing somedody and thinking that some people do not have the right to leave fully. There is. But. The step is so thin, that it is frightening me. And also I think that this is sad. Sad. So sad.

Of course if I stole the share of everyone around me, I'll be rich and they'll be poor. But if we all using our resources nobody will be poor and maybe some of us would be richer than other, but who cares, then?

And the past is not the futur. Once we were monkeys. Hope that we are not anymore. Not so sure sometimes.

In case that you would not already know, there is measures to know what material goods are needed in order to fulfill the needs of a human being. Under a certain measure you could say that some people are poor.

Of course, differences in the bank accounts may stay, it does not matter a big deal, but poverty to a unhuman state is a different story to me.

Have to run, Love, ev.

[jurica]

Jurica,
let me be a little ironic. I don´t think that your thoughts are as complicated and I even don´t think that they are original.
Yes, for intellectual everything is relative, even property.
But there are people on this planet, who are dying by hunger. And it isn´t relative is it?

the fact is that there's absolutely nothing original or complicated about "my thoughts" (i don't remember calling them mine, so i have no idea where you got that ironic thing), but it's funny how completely missunderstood it got.

my first post was refering to your statement: "Isn´t there any sequentiality between the fact, that some countries grow rich and some countries grow poor?", and it was supposed to mean: "of course there's sequentiality"... i specified that i mean : "in language"... go back to it and check.

i completely agree with Tchocolatl on the issue of hunger, and i wanted to underline how shallow your argument was, saying "rich get richer, poor get poorer", because it has no real substance. it has to be that way. it's simply because of the nature of words.

i'm not going to go into this further, because it's pointless.

[bruna]

Jurica,
thank you for your explanation. I am just a simple boy, you know. My limited mind cannot catch your great ideas. I am sorry, jurica.

[John the Shorts]

And here's the most recently issued item by my Trade Union (Of which I am proud to be an elected Workplace Rep)

MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
18 May 2005

PCS has signed up to the Make Poverty History campaign - a worldwide coalition committed to pressurising the leaders of G8 countries into taking practical steps towards poverty alleviation in poor countries.

This year offers an exceptional series of opportunities for the UK to take a lead internationally, to start turning things around as the UK heads up the European Union (EU) and hosts the annual G8 gathering of powerful world leaders in Scotland.

A Make Poverty History rally has been planned for 2 July 2005 in Edinburgh to coincide with this meeting. PCS is sending a contingent and is also encouraging members, especially those in Scotland to help make the rally a success. For information on how to participate in the rally or PCS's involvement in the campaign, visit the International web page.

The link can be found here http://www.pcs.org.uk/Templates/Interna ... eID=896939

[altinkum]

I said in an earlier post on this thread that I help out at our local Oxfam shop, well last week some desperate sole kindly relieved us of the colllection box containing the cash from the sale of Make poverty history bands. Obviously that person had a different definition of poverty than those of us who bought those bands

Wendy

[linmag]

Obviously a believer that charity begins at home!

It has been interesting to read the discussion in this thread, but I think that the main point of the Make Poverty History campaign has been missed. The aim is to persuade the 'rich' countries to cancel the debt of the 'poor' countries. The UK has already done this, and I doubt very much whether anyone living in the UK has noticed any effect on their day-to-day life. The fact is, that the banks have already largely written off their third world debts, knowing that it is highly unlikely they will ever be repaid, but are still collecting the interest on the loans. If the loans were cancelled, the money currently going in interest payments could be channelled into the local economy, and much less would be needed in international aid payments. The argument that this money might be misused by corrupt governments is not an excuse for taking it off them. If there was more money available, fewer people might feel the need to illicitly increase their share.