Dear Teratogen ~
Thank you for your details of them and their lives, and how they were in yours. I can understand the immensity of your loss. It's going to take time. With the loss of one of my cats, Oliver, I ended up going into counseling for awhile. I'd had him for seven years, since he was a kitten, but it was a very close seven years. I could not stop crying. I am so sorry, Teratogen. I really do understand.
Peter ~ Yes, I believe we all understood Teratogen's selection of that line. We simply didn't comment. Leonard is very close to Lorca's dogs and, no doubt, had dogs of his own as a child, or at least in his life. Somehow, he has come to understand the depth of the loss.
Love,
Elizabeth
"everybody's got this broken feeling..."
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peter danielsen
- Posts: 921
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Teratogen
- Posts: 1653
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:09 pm
- Location: Santa Clarita, California
- Contact:
well, i always thought that line was funny, but it popped into my head as i was going to post this thread, because it had words "dog" and "died." but i can see every other connotation.
"Rock and roll is dead, but I am its revival. I'm prophesied by sages died, from Buddha to the Bible." --TERATOGEN
http://www.myspace.com/teratogen (music page)
http://www.myspace.com/teratogen666 (personal page)
http://www.facebook.com/#!/TheNoHoldsBard?ref=profile (Facebook page)
http://www.myspace.com/teratogen (music page)
http://www.myspace.com/teratogen666 (personal page)
http://www.facebook.com/#!/TheNoHoldsBard?ref=profile (Facebook page)
sorry to hear about your loss. i have a cat i love more than anything. i can't imagine what you're going though except to know that it is coming.
when i think about that, i think of a line from a bob dylan song.
I'll see you in the skies above
in the tall grass, with the ones I love,
you're gonna make me lonesome when you go.
take care -
jpx
when i think about that, i think of a line from a bob dylan song.
I'll see you in the skies above
in the tall grass, with the ones I love,
you're gonna make me lonesome when you go.
take care -
jpx
So sad to see a good friend go
I had to euthanise my first cat Felicia on April 6, the same day Prince Renier died as it turned out. I know how sad it is to say good-bye to a good friend. I cried for three days. I know she had a good life and was happy. I am sure your dog was a happy one and had a great life. Too bad our pets don't live longer.
Animals teach us about unconditional love which is the greatest gift, hopefully in turn we can give the same to all sentient beings.
Animals teach us about unconditional love which is the greatest gift, hopefully in turn we can give the same to all sentient beings.
Cheers & DLight
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
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Teratogen
- Posts: 1653
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- Contact:
thank you tri-me, and you are absolutely right. just thinking about it makes me sad, that such creatures that can give unconditional love like that must face very untimely, and often painful deaths. well, i mean to say that they begin to suffer rapidly, for they age rapidly, however i have always been a supporter of euthanasia, even for humans, because something that innocent and pure and free-spirited ought to deserve a dignified death.
"Rock and roll is dead, but I am its revival. I'm prophesied by sages died, from Buddha to the Bible." --TERATOGEN
http://www.myspace.com/teratogen (music page)
http://www.myspace.com/teratogen666 (personal page)
http://www.facebook.com/#!/TheNoHoldsBard?ref=profile (Facebook page)
http://www.myspace.com/teratogen (music page)
http://www.myspace.com/teratogen666 (personal page)
http://www.facebook.com/#!/TheNoHoldsBard?ref=profile (Facebook page)
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simonelimone
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:45 pm
- Location: Bern, Switzerland
I’m impressed by all this love for your pets but please don’t forget in your grief for the beloved the millions of anonymous animals slaughtered and exploited daily for the meat, fur, leather and dairy industry. Not to talk about animal experiments.
Maybe theirs just unlucky not being so cute or having so lovely names.
If you really care for animals go check this http://www.peta.org.
Thanks - Simon
Maybe theirs just unlucky not being so cute or having so lovely names.
If you really care for animals go check this http://www.peta.org.
Thanks - Simon
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linda_lakeside
- Posts: 3857
- Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:08 pm
- Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea..
Simon,
I can speak only for myself, but I believe that most of us are aware of PETA and the work they do for the protection of animal rights.
However, I don't think T was abusing his pets. He loved his pets, so I think it inappropriate that his thread be used to as a platform for PETA or any other organization. This is about T, not PETA.
You, of course, are free and welcome to open your own thread. Many are interested in what PETA is doing. Go at 'er.
Linda.
I can speak only for myself, but I believe that most of us are aware of PETA and the work they do for the protection of animal rights.
However, I don't think T was abusing his pets. He loved his pets, so I think it inappropriate that his thread be used to as a platform for PETA or any other organization. This is about T, not PETA.
You, of course, are free and welcome to open your own thread. Many are interested in what PETA is doing. Go at 'er.
Linda.
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simonelimone
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:45 pm
- Location: Bern, Switzerland
Linda,
Don’t instruct me about what’s this thread, this teaching mentality some people have in this forum to tell others what’s allowed and what’s not is unbearable.
If someone opens a “public” discussion about the grief he has over the loss of his dog and about the wonderful unconditional love animals give us then it is in the subject when I talk about animal abuse and give a hint what everybody can do for them.
I mean it is perfectly okay to cite Dylan to mourn over the loss of a cat or a dog, but if you do so you cannot close your eyes over the daily tragedy of production animals. Many people unfortunately do so (I’m sure nobody who posted in this thread), but then it is ridiculous if they pretend to love animals, they just love a living toy.
Furthermore I didn’t say that I think that T abuses his pets - on the contrary I said that I feel impressed by all the love expressed for the animals. Again I think it can only be in the spirit of people who love animals when I give the link to a non profit organization for the protection of animal rights. No need to open a special thread for that, but feel free to do so.
Simon
Don’t instruct me about what’s this thread, this teaching mentality some people have in this forum to tell others what’s allowed and what’s not is unbearable.
If someone opens a “public” discussion about the grief he has over the loss of his dog and about the wonderful unconditional love animals give us then it is in the subject when I talk about animal abuse and give a hint what everybody can do for them.
I mean it is perfectly okay to cite Dylan to mourn over the loss of a cat or a dog, but if you do so you cannot close your eyes over the daily tragedy of production animals. Many people unfortunately do so (I’m sure nobody who posted in this thread), but then it is ridiculous if they pretend to love animals, they just love a living toy.
Furthermore I didn’t say that I think that T abuses his pets - on the contrary I said that I feel impressed by all the love expressed for the animals. Again I think it can only be in the spirit of people who love animals when I give the link to a non profit organization for the protection of animal rights. No need to open a special thread for that, but feel free to do so.
Simon
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linda_lakeside
- Posts: 3857
- Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:08 pm
- Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea..
Dear Simon ~
I know that you mean well on behalf of all of the abused and neglected animals that PETA tries so hard to protect and save. I contacted PETA myself, when a neighbor intentionally set out tuna fish with anti-freeze stirred into it, and set it at the closest-to-the-road, concealed spot he had to kill my cats. He succeeded with three. Cats have a keen sense of smell, and both of these products are incredibly enticing to them to begin with and, together, they're a double draw. I had him prosecuted and had PETA in the wings, regarding the case, in the event I needed specific input. Fortunately, I didn't. This is a "good ol' boy" part of the state where I live and PETA's presence could easily have made them dig in their heels, against me, as a result......."Nobody's gonna tell us what to do." However, the neighbor was convicted of Felony Animal Cruelty [apparently a precedent of sorts, which I've learned from my friend, made since then, who was the Animal Cruelty Officer for 32 years in the more sophisticated county where she lives.
I hope you're not offended by what I say, or take it as a 'teaching' platform, but I really feel I must respond to your posting. It may be a language difference that's created the response to your well-meaning post on behalf of all animals. However, if I may, Simon, I can point out some of your wording that had more of an inflammatory effect than not. Just so it can be more easily looked at, I'll do it in list form.
"all this love" ~ Simon, this phrasing tends to have a dismissive effect. It's kind of condescending, like some people might use in reference to hippies. It tends to suggest that the love being expressed is somehow more for show than it is genuine. It does this in spite of your saying you're 'impressed' by it, and to please not forget.
"please don't forget in your grief" ~ As you may have experienced yourself, or maybe not, everything tends to get forgotten in your grief, everything except the 'object' of your grief. Your mind is taken over with memories, wishes, regrets, remorse, hopes unfulfilled, and your own sorrow. Some people ~ whether it's the loss of a pet, a job, a home, a person, or anything else ~ forget to take care of their own basic needs, right down to personal hygiene. Grieving is a very personal thing and has its own time frame. People need to grieve until their grieving is done. This tends to diminish the grief he is already in the midst of, in lieu of the grief he's being pointed toward, to move forward to, to experience and act upon. He's just not ready for that. It's more important to respect the space he's currently in.
"Maybe theirs just unlucky not being so cute or having so lovely names" ~ this, whether you intended it to or not, comes across as sarcastic and demeaning, regarding Teratogen's having shared with us the description and name of his dog.
"If you really care for animals" ~ in reading that phrase, the mind tends to emphasize the word really. This can put the reader on the defensive, whether it's Teratogen, grieving the loss of his dog, and this suggesting that, unless he involves himself with PETA, he doesn't really care; or to the readers, that despite what they've said or shared, that they still have one more criteria to meet in order to prove that they really care for animals, and that's to go to the PETA website. It comes across as a challenge to one's own level and expressions of caring.
The way that your posting entered into the flow of expressions here would be maybe equivalent to walking up to a widow, whose husband had just died of lung cancer, handing her and the other mourners a brochure, and saying, "If you really care about people dying of cancer, you'll contact these people, who are fighting worldwide pollution. There are millions dying in Africa, where shallow oil wells are being dug, and the people's drinking water is being polluted; but, I guess since they don't have a job like your husband did, and don't have a last name like Williamson, they don't matter." I know, Simon, that you would never do something like this, no matter how much you care about pollution and how it affects millions of people worldwide. It doesn't lessen the importance of the issue or the pollution cause because it is a crucial issue and cause. It just doesn't happen to be the time or the place to rally for the cause.
I hope you understand how I'm saying this. A personal loss will almost always ~ I won't say 'always' because I can't allow for every possibility ~ be experienced differently than other forms of loss. It's the nature of bonding. I agree with you on the abhorrent maltreatment, abuse, and senseless killing of animals in the name of many, supposedly, good reasons and causes. It's just that it really is a good topic for another thread [in another section].
Love,
Lizzy
I know that you mean well on behalf of all of the abused and neglected animals that PETA tries so hard to protect and save. I contacted PETA myself, when a neighbor intentionally set out tuna fish with anti-freeze stirred into it, and set it at the closest-to-the-road, concealed spot he had to kill my cats. He succeeded with three. Cats have a keen sense of smell, and both of these products are incredibly enticing to them to begin with and, together, they're a double draw. I had him prosecuted and had PETA in the wings, regarding the case, in the event I needed specific input. Fortunately, I didn't. This is a "good ol' boy" part of the state where I live and PETA's presence could easily have made them dig in their heels, against me, as a result......."Nobody's gonna tell us what to do." However, the neighbor was convicted of Felony Animal Cruelty [apparently a precedent of sorts, which I've learned from my friend, made since then, who was the Animal Cruelty Officer for 32 years in the more sophisticated county where she lives.
I hope you're not offended by what I say, or take it as a 'teaching' platform, but I really feel I must respond to your posting. It may be a language difference that's created the response to your well-meaning post on behalf of all animals. However, if I may, Simon, I can point out some of your wording that had more of an inflammatory effect than not. Just so it can be more easily looked at, I'll do it in list form.
"all this love" ~ Simon, this phrasing tends to have a dismissive effect. It's kind of condescending, like some people might use in reference to hippies. It tends to suggest that the love being expressed is somehow more for show than it is genuine. It does this in spite of your saying you're 'impressed' by it, and to please not forget.
"please don't forget in your grief" ~ As you may have experienced yourself, or maybe not, everything tends to get forgotten in your grief, everything except the 'object' of your grief. Your mind is taken over with memories, wishes, regrets, remorse, hopes unfulfilled, and your own sorrow. Some people ~ whether it's the loss of a pet, a job, a home, a person, or anything else ~ forget to take care of their own basic needs, right down to personal hygiene. Grieving is a very personal thing and has its own time frame. People need to grieve until their grieving is done. This tends to diminish the grief he is already in the midst of, in lieu of the grief he's being pointed toward, to move forward to, to experience and act upon. He's just not ready for that. It's more important to respect the space he's currently in.
"Maybe theirs just unlucky not being so cute or having so lovely names" ~ this, whether you intended it to or not, comes across as sarcastic and demeaning, regarding Teratogen's having shared with us the description and name of his dog.
"If you really care for animals" ~ in reading that phrase, the mind tends to emphasize the word really. This can put the reader on the defensive, whether it's Teratogen, grieving the loss of his dog, and this suggesting that, unless he involves himself with PETA, he doesn't really care; or to the readers, that despite what they've said or shared, that they still have one more criteria to meet in order to prove that they really care for animals, and that's to go to the PETA website. It comes across as a challenge to one's own level and expressions of caring.
The way that your posting entered into the flow of expressions here would be maybe equivalent to walking up to a widow, whose husband had just died of lung cancer, handing her and the other mourners a brochure, and saying, "If you really care about people dying of cancer, you'll contact these people, who are fighting worldwide pollution. There are millions dying in Africa, where shallow oil wells are being dug, and the people's drinking water is being polluted; but, I guess since they don't have a job like your husband did, and don't have a last name like Williamson, they don't matter." I know, Simon, that you would never do something like this, no matter how much you care about pollution and how it affects millions of people worldwide. It doesn't lessen the importance of the issue or the pollution cause because it is a crucial issue and cause. It just doesn't happen to be the time or the place to rally for the cause.
I hope you understand how I'm saying this. A personal loss will almost always ~ I won't say 'always' because I can't allow for every possibility ~ be experienced differently than other forms of loss. It's the nature of bonding. I agree with you on the abhorrent maltreatment, abuse, and senseless killing of animals in the name of many, supposedly, good reasons and causes. It's just that it really is a good topic for another thread [in another section].
Love,
Lizzy
Last edited by lizzytysh on Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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simonelimone
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:45 pm
- Location: Bern, Switzerland
Dear Lizzy
Thanks for this detailed response to my posts.
I wanted to express my aliniate about people treating their pets like human beings on the one hand-but on the other hand don't care how their burger was produced. And in my opinion some posts in this thread go in the direction of humanisating animals and that can also be problematic.
But this is not the the topic and I see your argumentation and accept the critic. I also admit that I made a slight critic about the thread itself between the lines (you well interpreted), and for that I apologise, this was wrong.
Love - Simon
Thanks for this detailed response to my posts.
I wanted to express my aliniate about people treating their pets like human beings on the one hand-but on the other hand don't care how their burger was produced. And in my opinion some posts in this thread go in the direction of humanisating animals and that can also be problematic.
But this is not the the topic and I see your argumentation and accept the critic. I also admit that I made a slight critic about the thread itself between the lines (you well interpreted), and for that I apologise, this was wrong.
Love - Simon
Dear Simon ~
You're welcome, of course, and thank you very much for your non-defensive response and honesty.
Sorry I left out a few words in my last paragraph. I've added them in now [gotta hate those Edited messages
]. I also added punctuation marks [as follows] around the word 'impressed,' as I felt at the time that you were using the word with at least a tinge of hyperbole, but didn't know how best to address it, so just hoped that my noting how you used it in conjunction with "all this love" would suffice. However, since I had to deal with an Edited 
message, anyway, I went ahead and added the marks.
So that I can be true to what I'm saying in my earlier response to you, I'll continue on a new thread with my additional thoughts. The thread is in the Comments section.
Thanks again, Simon, for your help in making this an "All's well that ends well" exchange.
Love,
Lizzy
You're welcome, of course, and thank you very much for your non-defensive response and honesty.
Sorry I left out a few words in my last paragraph. I've added them in now [gotta hate those Edited messages
]. I also added punctuation marks [as follows] around the word 'impressed,' as I felt at the time that you were using the word with at least a tinge of hyperbole, but didn't know how best to address it, so just hoped that my noting how you used it in conjunction with "all this love" would suffice. However, since I had to deal with an Edited message, anyway, I went ahead and added the marks. So that I can be true to what I'm saying in my earlier response to you, I'll continue on a new thread with my additional thoughts. The thread is in the Comments section.
Thanks again, Simon, for your help in making this an "All's well that ends well" exchange.
Love,
Lizzy
