Pope John Paul II ~ Goodbye To A Good Man

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:42 am

This thread is deeply touching.

The energy is really high. And beautiful.

The Pope was a good man.

Not any good man though, he was the leader of an institution called Church and his death put definitely into question this institution, especially for those who have to live with the consequences of the decisions made by the Church.

This is strange however how people are reproching things to people that devoted their life to be good while they would not have think to do it for, let say, for an Al Capone.

Diane, so you are joining your voice to mine. Do you know the numerous legends about the devil going into priests and nuns robes disguise? I do believe a lot that legends are knowledge about reality that is not rational but nonetheless very true. I do believe God does not want bad things to happen but he gave us our free will and therefore, He is not doing anything to make non sense stop - we have to stop it. I do not think either that laws are able to stop non sense, only like you said, the persons have to look into their own heart. That's it. Therefore I join my voice to you, that have joined your voice to us.

Lizzitysh, do you know what? I just heard this week at the radio about how this death could affect people that have not finished to mourn some beloved people. I am under the impression that you may be affected also in this way, even though I feel that you are expressing true feelings about the Pope.

I would like to do something to comfort you, then I bring you another "joke" another story, that, I think, you will appeciate for itself and also because it illustrates what Jean-Paul II did that you liked so much :

The Dawn

A rabbi asks his students :

- How to we know when night is finished and a new day is coming?

- When you could recognize a sheep from a wolfe, said a student.

- No, this is not the answer, said the rabbi

- When you could make the diffencence between a fig tree and an olive tree, said another student,

- No, said the rabbi, this is not the answer

- Then how? said the students.

- When we are seing a stranger and recognize a brother in this person, then a new day rise and the night if finished.

bee · Post by **bee** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:15 am

Immediately after his election as Pope, John Paul designated Opus Dei as a special order directly accountable to him, not to the bishops

-Dem
this is just laughable, all these so called "facts" as FYS calls them, so he c'n have one more story to tell to himself, which would become his reality.
Orders always have been directly accountable to the Pope, not to bishops-. Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits, Small Brothers etc. As Franciscans have the General directly under the Pope, no bishop would be his boss, so do others.
As for Liberation Theology just as well, let's say one aspect- sure Pope did not like the arms to be stored in churches. don't even want to touch that subject, but there would be plenty to say to make that article of "facts" absolutely absurd.

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:21 am

"But the nights were cold
and it almost kept me warm,
how come the night is long?"

Diane · Post by **Diane** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:23 am

Elizabeth, Tchocoatl thank you for your words.

It is my view that much of mankind is separated to a greater or lesser degree from his true nature. He uses fear and greed and hatred as a defence against experiencing this vulnerable, moral, and tender-hearted true self. Such defences have become woven into world religions, which may preserve and add to the Big Lie. God will not save us from anything, even if he exists (I personally think not). The first task is to look inside ourselves and attempt to undo our own dysfunctions, our own inauthenticity, and then to tackle those in the power structure of our world. The good and bad you speak of are indeed inside us all. This is my opinion, and all I wanted to say. I hope perhaps to see some of you again in less heavy threads.

Love and light,

Diane

bee · Post by **bee** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:41 pm

He uses fear and greed and hatred as a defence against experiencing this vulnerable, moral, and tender-hearted true self.

Dear Diane- what is the source of the "moral" true self? Where is it coming from?
Diane-

Such defences have become woven into world religions, which may preserve and add to the Big Lie.

How would you define the Big Lie?
Who do you think lied?

The first task is to look inside ourselves and attempt to undo our own dysfunctions, our own inauthenticity

If we can undo the dysfunctions, how and why did they happen at the first place?
What the authennticity of ones true self would contain?

The first task is to look inside ourselves

What do you think people do when they are to decide to follow religious or spiritual path? Don't you think that first they would examine inside their hearts and minds? Or do you think it only happens when they decide against it?
Hope you would give me some anwers, because I sure am confused now.

mdidier · Post by **mdidier** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:07 pm

... just when we thought old Europe had totally cast off the alleged shackles of traditional religion, we see huge, teary-eyed crowds belying that alleged fact. Perchance is there still (heaven forbid) a sliver of religiosity left deep in the wrinkles of secularized euro souls?.... although I find it queer that people who refuse the teachings of (a) religion, are quick to elevate that religion's endorsement of a particular (political) position coinciding with that held by its atheist adversaries.... (as Miss Barcelona illustrates). The substitute religion of anti-Americanism, under the guise of anti-Bushism, seems not to be able to fill that religious void.... (an opinion expressed frequently by French philosopher and author Bernard Henri Levy; however Levy does not explain Europe's apologetic stance vis a vis the Islamofascist's religiosity...)

... the story about the daughter being separated from her mother reminds one of the frequency with which this happens today in the "civil" administration of state governments... some states not only separate unworthy mothers from their offspring, they lose some of these kids in the PC-world of bureaucratic functionaries.... (disclaimer: which is not to dismiss any of the horrors perpetrated by the Catholic Church over the centuries)

... most of us have been uncomfortable with the demand made by religion to accept "on faith" certain concepts. Alas, if the mysteries of God were perfectly explained through the limits of human logic, then religion would indeed have no reason for being. After all, man as a finite being is by definition incapable of understanding infinity.... faith is the answer, though many of us fail the test of faith!

Dem · Post by **Dem** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:59 pm

And of course you, Dem, think that 'liberation theology' is a good thing, right?

Mirek

Exactly!

And my respect goes to those priests and nuns in Latin America that
were tortured or/and killed for their brave stance and not
to any Pope.

Demetris

bee · Post by **bee** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:43 pm

Dear Marcel, welcome back! Where have you been? Was thinking about you and Midnight, not seeing you around anymore.
Thank you for a very good post.
I am glad you touched the subject of the children taken by state from "unworthy" mothers, many of them just disappear, many have been abused and tortured. These things are done not in the name of God, but in the name of humanity. When Diana told her sad family story, I thought about how it is that we hold something for so long inside us, injustice has been done, perhaps even with the best intentions, but it takes it's hold for generations. I think there still were no voting rights for women at the time she is describing-30th in last century.
About the Europe and faith-perhaps it is more in the minds of the writers for the newspapers and all media, which makes the impression that Europe is done with religion. Just like on this Forum-if someone would come in here and read, they would think that atheists prevail and here isn't anybody who would support church or at least believe in God. It seams more prestigious to attack church and believers, proclaim freedom from "darkness of superstition," point out the mistakes and horrors and wrongs of religion, while feeding themselves on the beauty what the religion and believers have generated for centuries.
Dear Marsel, I hope to read more of your posts, always a pleasure.

Jo · Post by Jo » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:33 pm

Andrew McGeever - you said:
I only rely on myths, mysteries and revelations
You sound like a typical good christian

The Pope was not a good man - nor was he a particularly bad man, when compared to many others. He was just a man with all the frailties of humankind ... with all the nastiness and the occasional goodness and the mistakes and the often intentional misguided attitudes and actions.

Regarding the article quoted by Dem I would like to add this - from one of our local newspapers: (The gist is entirely correct but perhaps the actual words are not entirely accurate word for word)

"He [the pope] thought they [Pinochet and wife] were an exemplary christian couple, despite knowing that they had mounted an anti-democratic coup and murdered 10's of thousands of socialists and democrats."
The reason the pope gave for calling for Pinochet's release was that his crimes were committed when he was head of state and he enjoyed sovereign immunity.

On second thoughts - the pope was NOT a good man.

Simon - I'm not in the habit of lighting candles for anyone (unless I'm expecting a visit from Johnny Depp

) but as someone living in a country ravaged by the AIDS epidemic I think I could make an exception (I am after all a non-catholic raised in a convent) - and while I'm there I think I could also light a candle for the departed pope in the hope that his new (hopefully) exalted position will clear his mind and that his spirit will somehow find a way to influence the next pope into being realistic about the distressing reality of this epidemic and the fact that no god, easter bunny or santa claus will help us on this one (or any other one) - we have to help ourselves, as in all other things.

Mind you - I've just had a very irreverent thought

If unprotected sex causes the birth of unwanted babies as well as infection by the fatal AIDS virus - don't the two sort of cancel each other out and viola - the population explosion is sorted out.

Maybe the pope was a good man....

linda_lakeside · Post by **linda_lakeside** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:56 am

Hey Marcel! Long time no see.

Linda.

bee · Post by **bee** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:16 am

Jo- there are no miracles to be done, there is no medicine, no cure for a fool. Even flies get dizzy and die, when they hear the fools talk.

Jo · Post by Jo » Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:52 pm

Thank you so much for clearing that up - I had been wondering why I was staggering around feeling confused and ill. But thanks to you I now know the cure - I'll do my damnedest to stay away from those who are unable to accept views other than their own. That is what you meant by fools?

I assume you and a few others are in the best of health?

simonelimone · Post by **simonelimone** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:07 pm

Hey Jo, don’t let bee provocate you, this is playing her game. Her posts – written in the spirit and tradition of Christian Love - speak for themselves.

Simon

bee · Post by **bee** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:38 pm

]

Hey Jo, don’t let bee provocate you, this is playing her game. Her posts – written in the spirit and tradition of Christian Love - speak for themselves.

Simonelimone-what can I say, great man died-thousands were chanting-Magnum, Magnum, the world was watching and saying goodbyes.There are people on this very thread expressing they personal experience, their respect. Now here comes Jo-and what does he do? He spits and he opens his mouth and he is the judge and the jury. Because he knows better, he's read a local newspaper, now he knows the truth. So he wants to tell it to me and to you and others. If that is not a fool, than who is?
Simonelimone- Christian Love does not mean-if one is seeing a cabbage saying-that is a rose, or seeing a rat-saying-it's a rabbit, or seeing a fool-saying-that's a genius. If he was hungry, I would give him something to eat, if he was cold, I would make sure he gets warm, but nothing would prevent me from seeing that the man still is s fool.

Dem · Post by **Dem** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:11 pm

From today's CNN website:
"...Law is archpriest of Basilica Santa Maria Maggiore, where he presided on Sunday. Pope John Paul II appointed him to that post after Law was implicated in the sexual abuse scandal in Boston in 2002..."

"...Court documents showed Law knowingly moved priests accused of abuse from parish to parish without disclosing allegations against them. He resigned in 2003 amid intense public outrage..."

See full text here:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/04/10/ca ... index.html

So, his "Holiness" was appointing archbishops implicated in sexual abuse scandals who had resigned from their old posts to new ones as archpriests.

I see!

Demetris

PS) And Bee could you please explain what organizations inside the Church like Opus Dei have to do with humble Jesus who went to Jerusalem on a donkey?