Pope John Paul II ~ Goodbye To A Good Man

[Andrew McGeever]

Dear Mirek,
thankyou for reminding me of THE TITLE of this thread....goodbye to a good man.
You are absolutely right: I know almost nothing about contraception and the church, as do millions of true believers in Africa, Central America, South America, the Philippines, and Edinburgh.
I cannot provide you with proof of my profound knowledge, for I have none. I only rely on myths, mysteries and revelations: not a lot to get one through life, never mind the 21st century.
I've been reading Edward Gibbon's "The Christians and The Fall of Rome" (first published 1776) and St. Augustine's "Confessions of a Sinner" (A.D. 354-430). Such a shame for an adult man. Now if I'd read that when I was 15, I may have reduced the birth rate in my neck of the woods.
Some people say I've done my duty to G*d.
My children don't understand that concept; neither do I.
I guess we're more thick than you are.
Andrew.
P.S. There are many websites offering population/demographic data for the E.U. and elsewhere. The birthrate stats for Italy may have changed in the last few years: their faith (and uncontrolled libido) may have risen, but it's too soon to tell with any authority.

[lizzytysh]

Dear Mirek ~

I'm proud with you and for you. I'm 50% Polish, but have never visited Poland, and what I've said doesn't relate to that. I wish I could have met him, and very glad that you were able. I know he began his life as a poor person, perhaps, in true poverty. I'll find that out as I read more. I'm in agreement with you. He has not been lain to rest; yet, people argue in the graveyard. Apparently, only those who live their lives in perfection, and perform all duties to the same measure shall ever be considered good. Perhaps, one day, the future and history will produce such a one. For my definition, and apparently that of millions of others, John Paul II [Karol Wojtyla] comes as close as one ever needs. To resist the Power and to bring the Humanity and to promote the Peace. He was the only Pope to have ever entered a mosque and prayed. I have no interest in argument. I wish I could have met him, too. I'm glad you did.

If I were anywhere near, I would pay my respects, and say my goodbye, in person.

Love,
Elizabeth

[Dem]

I don’t know if John Paul II was a good or a bad man
(I always felt sympathy for him every time in the last years I saw his “living corpse” to be carried around by the officials of Vatican)
but I must say that the images of hundreds of thousands of people
waiting in lines for hours to “pay respect” are very appalling.

It is “talibanism” at the heart of Europe and it promises nothing
good for it’s future.

Demetris

PS) I am always stunned by religious people
of the kind of Bee who are so faithful “Christians” while at the very same time
are so …pro war!
It seems that bombing cities, burning alive men, women and children, demolishing their houses and the likes are to their consciousness very “Christian” things to do and to support.
So, pay your respects to the late Pope but also please pay
your taxes because the cost of the illegal invasion to Iraq (to which that same
Pope openly objected, remember?) has gone way too much up!

[jurica]

PS) I am always stunned by religious people
of the kind of Bee who are so faithful “Christians” while at the very same time
are so …pro war!
It seems that bombing cities, burning alive men, women and children, demolishing their houses and the likes are to their consciousness very “Christian” things to do and to support.
So, pay your respects to the late Pope but also please pay
your taxes because the cost of the illegal invasion to Iraq (to which that same
Pope openly objected, remember?) has gone way too much up!

yes. that did puzzle me for some time now.

in Croatia, the greatest war criminals were the loudest Christians (on both Chatolic and Ortodox side).

and Pope indeed was perhaps the loudest oposition to the war in Iraq, so it's sort of strange to advocate war and call your self a good Catholic that highly respects the same Pope. it's strange to be a Christian and advocate war alone, but how often in history, that was the case!

but then again - i guess it takes something of a blind faith (stupidity if you prefer to call things by their names) to belive without questioning whatever sort of religion you are a part of. the same blind faith it takes to kill people in the name of your country or freedom. the same blind faith to never question your own oppinions, etc.

the blind faith (stupidity) is what scares me the most in this world. it's not Christians, Muslims or Hindu; it's not communism, totalitarism or nazism... without fools neither one would be dangeorus. without fools there would be noone to fire the guns, fly the bombers or drive the tanks...

[Mirek]

I don’t know if John Paul II was a good or a bad man
(I always felt sympathy for him every time in the last years I saw his “living corpse” to be carried around by the officials of Vatican)
but I must say that the images of hundreds of thousands of people
waiting in lines for hours to “pay respect” are very appalling.

It is “talibanism” at the heart of Europe and it promises nothing
good for it’s future.

Demetris

PS) I am always stunned by religious people
of the kind of Bee who are so faithful “Christians” while at the very same time
are so …pro war!
It seems that bombing cities, burning alive men, women and children, demolishing their houses and the likes are to their consciousness very “Christian” things to do and to support.
So, pay your respects to the late Pope but also please pay
your taxes because the cost of the illegal invasion to Iraq (to which that same Pope openly objected, remember?) has gone way too much up!

Now - another person that tries to go off the thread. Don't mention bombing, burning etc. in the thread commemorating one of the greatest oponents of that, and all other wars.

He was a true Man of Peace.
And please - don't call "respect" - "Talibanism". If you don't see the difference between those two things... well... that's just sad.

If you don't want to pay respect - that's OK. But at least don't start war here, Demetris. You seem to be in opposition to war - why your words (not only in this thread) are full of hate?

I don't want anyone to convert to christianity. What's more - I am not a very good catholic, either. I believe in God, not in priests and church hierarchy.

John Paul II used to say: "love and respect others" - and I guess that it's a universal message. Think about it...

Mirek

[Mirek]

Dear Mirek,
thankyou for reminding me of THE TITLE of this thread....goodbye to a good man.
I cannot provide you with proof of my profound knowledge, for I have none. I only rely on myths, mysteries and revelations: not a lot to get one through life, never mind the 21st century.
I've been reading Edward Gibbon's "The Christians and The Fall of Rome" (first published 1776) and St. Augustine's "Confessions of a Sinner" (A.D. 354-430). Such a shame for an adult man. Now if I'd read that when I was 15, I may have reduced the birth rate in my neck of the woods.
Some people say I've done my duty to G*d.
My children don't understand that concept; neither do I.
I guess we're more thick than you are.
Andrew.
P.S. There are many websites offering population/demographic data for the E.U. and elsewhere. The birthrate stats for Italy may have changed in the last few years: their faith (and uncontrolled libido) may have risen, but it's too soon to tell with any authority.

Dear Andrew,
As I can see you're trying to be sarcastic... if that's your way of discussion, that's OK with me. I also can be sarcastic.
It's very nice that you've read two books. I'm pretty sure there are millions of people that didn't read even one.
Have you read any books written by JP 2, by the way?
What have YOU personally done to those poor men in Africa dying of AIDS?

PS. Demographic data.. yes, I know there are many websites. And you didn't consult them before presenting your data. Compare the data for Italy with same figures for Germany, Slovenia, Austria. Do you think Germany has lower birth rate than Italy because they're catholics following the strict rules of Vatican?
Andrew - I am a scientist by profession. I've been dealing with data for over 30 years now. And during that time I learned something important. Interpretation of data should be started by verification of the data. If the data are wrong then our interpretation is sensless. QED.

That's all I wanted to say abut that subject.

End of thread

Mirek

[Kush]

From past experience i don't know there is anything I could ever say that would even begin to make sense to Dem (yeah I was expecting he would eventually make an appearance here)....we must be as far away culturally as its possible so I'll let it go.

Jurica....cynicism may be the twin brother of blind faith.

Andrew...if you have so much hostility towards JPII as you appear to do so maybe you should spend sometime reading up on his life. It will either give substance to your animosity or it will change your mind. As the chinese philosopher-general Sun-Tzu said "Know your enemy" (or words to that effect). As it stands now, harping on and on about contraception - it seems to me that you're missing the big picture by about a mile and a half. Its like saying you dislike Lincoln coz' he once categorically stated black folks and white folks should never cohabit.

Mirek....nice to know a fellow scientist feels the same way and so strongly so. The data is reproducible amongst this strange species.

p.s. We may have something else in common...I once had the great honor of meeting Mother Teresa. I think at the very very basic level I have to look up to people who have the ability to do something I cannot, even if our worlds are completely different. Both the pope amd MT fall in that category.
To be able to spend your whole life caring for and living amongst the poorest of the poor. To be able to touch the person who once shot you (intending to kill) and have him mourn for you from his prison cell. These are things that I know I am not capable of.

[peter danielsen]

Martin Luther once called the pope a Fart, but that was long ago. Any person who claims holiness for himself is rather farty in my opinion.

"follow me the wise man said
but he walked behind"

Peter

[Mirek]

Martin Luther once called the pope a Fart, but that was long ago. Any person who claims holiness for himself is rather farty in my opinion.

"follow me the wise man said
but he walked behind"

Peter

Hello Peter - another man full of love and respect for others.
Again, I will ask for the source of that Luther citation - 'cos I am pretty sure that was something a bit different.
Another thing is - when and where did JP 2 claim holiness for himself?

At least try to stick to facts, even when you want to tell us how you hate others. And don't support your personal opinions with lies, Peter.

Mirek

[bee]

PS) I am always stunned by religious people
of the kind of Bee who are so faithful “Christians” while at the very same time
are so …pro war!
It seems that bombing cities, burning alive men, women and children, demolishing their houses and the likes are to their consciousness very “Christian” things to do and to support.

Listen Dem, -what it is you know about me-religious people of the kind of Bee?
You don't know anything about me or my life. Yes, I am glad that Saddam Hussein is gone to prison, I am glad that his rapist, sadist sons who were feeding women to the dogs are dead, I am glad that Kurdish people are able to have election, I am glad that the bloody dictators have to answer for they crimes.
The fact that you dislike Christians is your problem, the fact that you talk the peace talk does not make you a man of peace. You could be as violent as they come -I've heard these "peace talkers" pretty much in my time and know, what they really mean.
Our Pope was a great man And we honor him, you can grind your teeth as much as you want. Nobody of the millions of people who love him don't care what you do. You can't kill him either-he is already dead.

[ForYourSmile]

Dear Mirek,

If this topic is an honorific book exclusively for praise to the deceased Pope, I have been wrong to write here.

I believe that this one was the intention of the person who opened it. Her kindness and compassion affect to me. In my opinion a lot of people feel these days a great pity in front of the long and public agony of this man. The same feeling happened to my small daughter when she saw images that represent the Calvary of Jesus Christ.

But we write in a forum, a place for exchange opinions. We did not need to have a prophet to know that a discussion was beginning.

For the faithful, the Pope is the representative of God in the land, a sacred and infallible being. To criticize it is more than a lack of respect, is a sacrilege. For the others he was the leader of an organization who is trying to impose his morality on us. A delicate topic that I prefer to finish.

[simonelimone]

Dear FYS

Thanks for your posts which show that it is possible to exchange contradictory views in the spirit of tolerance and mutual respect, without putting the other down and alleging him/her things he/she never said.

Dear bee

You said:
“Simone- what is there to respect if you have fallen of the faith?”

I did not fall of the faith. I simply don’t have and never had any religious belief and I will not apologize for this.

“Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too.”
Voltaire, Essay on Tolerance
French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778)

Simon

[linda_lakeside]

Hi All,

Yes, the Pope was a good man. The faithful saw the Pope travel the World, he spoke their language, he made apologies.

Yet, millions of the faithful are dying of aids. Women are nowhere to be seen. He was a good man, in his way. The Church will continue, but hopefully (for the faithful) with an eye on the future.

Linda.

[ania]

I've never been Catholic and, perhaps, some other non-Catholics or non-Christians will have issues with how he was during his papal reign, so I prepare for that as I write this. However, I have nothing but respect for how he has dealt with the power entrusted to him. I have nothing but respect for him.

Many around the world, from many religions and those who aren't religious at all, mourn his death. To all who are Catholic, please accept my condolences in the loss of your highest leader. In my quiet way, I mourn his death, too. The world has lost a good man. May you, Pope John Paul II, rest in peace and enjoy the rewards of the honourable life you lived here on earth.

Love,
Elizabeth

dear elizabeth, thank you for your wonderful words. he truly was a beautiful person, and is already missed by so many of us. and to poles he symbolised all that much more. ania

[bee]

]

For the faithful, the Pope is the representative of God in the land, a sacred and infallible being. To criticize it is more than a lack of respect, is a sacrilege. For the others he was the leader of an organization who is trying to impose his morality on us. A delicate topic that I prefer to finish.

Now, dear FYS- is your statement really truth and reality?
1) The Head of the Church is Jesus Christ-has never been changed.
2) Is the Pope a representative of God for the Faithful?
No.
When Pope is issuing encyclical where he's is expressing revelations and setting new spiritual guidelines, the faithful accept it as inspired by Holy Spirit, thus Pope is giving the message trough Christ to the Church. He is the highest authority.
Same time he is still a man, never have been considered a God.
When Pope declares his opinions on one or another issue,( social issues, politics, war, etc.) he is speaking as a man of high authority, but not as a Head of the Church. There is a big difference, and practicing Catholics know that. Of course, his opinion is regarded highly, but is not considered as revelation necessarely.
So I do have a question to you FYS- who is the believer? It seems to me that you are the true believer-believer in your own stories you are telling to yourself and to others. Because your statement does not reflect the reality. And if it does not, it must have something to do with faith, at least following your statements.

To criticize it is more than a lack of respect, is a sacrilege

.
Is that the truth? This Pope and many others before him have been criticized by clergy and laity on issues where they have expressed their personal views as man, it has not been considered as a sacrilege. The criticisms have been reasonable and unreasonable, but people have not been expelled from the Church for expressing their opposing views to the Pope, of course one would expect them to be respectful same time.
Your statement FYS is false. It is a story you like to tell to yourself, to make you feel more comfortable about things, perhaps you feel uneasy. You have created your own reality-you have become quite a believer in that.

For the others he was the leader of an organization who is trying to impose his morality on us.

How can Pope try impose his morality on you? You don't belong to Church , you have nothing to do with the Church or the Pope (in spite the fact that you are rushing to criticize him before the man has even been buried)
The fact that perhaps for so many of your country man the Pope's morality is acceptable, does that bother you? Perhaps, but than again, it is the reality.
If you are a rational man, as you claim to be, you have accept it-most obvious that the morality of these people have some very close connection with the one of the Pope. Perhaps your resentment has something to do with your feeling that Pope is "imposing" morality on you.
One more thing-The morality is only one aspect of Faith. If morality was the only thing Pope would represent, would not mean much.