Pope John Paul II ~ Goodbye To A Good Man

[simonelimone]

Dear bee

Thanks for your answer.

Keep your faith, but please respect the others, I might be silly and vain, but not because I don’t believe in God.

Concerning my view of the Popes opinion on “saver sex”, - it’s my opinion – I might be wrong, I don’t claim the absolute truth.

Only tolerance and respect will bring us further, that’s what I believe.

Love - Simon

[Tchocolatl]

Is this going to be an argument which will drag on for weeks or one which will end rapidly? Perhaps there could be an argument over this too?

With good will from all the parties an argument can go for ever about any thing.

[ForYourSmile]

Nobody can wash off the water of baptism...

Dogmas and fanatical ideas, where the man cannot be liberated of his destiny, that has imposed him. Sad, very sad.

I was born under a catholic and fascist state*, was baptized because my father could not avoid it. When I was conscious I liberated myself. Why I must continue in a club that I am upset with?

Of course I washed of the water of baptism. I have never had the original sin, because it simply does not exist. This is a dogma for to blame from the beginning - to an innocent being - and the need to buy a product to be salved; marketing. Sorry, if you speak about your beliefs, I will not quiet the mine. The best place to speak of religion is in a temple.

Regardless, my childhood was happy and I do not have resentments. Only I try to keep my mind free.

I cannot believe in the Pope, though not everything was bad; he objected to the Iraq war . Do you remember dear bee?

Sincerely,

* The existence of this fascist state demonstrates that the saviors of Europe did not come to fight for the freedom, they came to save their economy and safety.

[Tchocolatl]

Tchoco- it is so right what you said- how come, that the ones who commit evil, always find somebody else to blame for what they did?

I am not sure that you really want to have an answer about this, but...

I am not sure there is an answer at all.

hum...

I would say it is the splitting of the holy into evil and good. Before the venue of the religion of a unique male God, the ancient religions had many gods as well as godesses that had complicated personnalities, and like human beings, were both good and bad. With this religion God is all Good, Devil is all bad. One should be all good in intent to stay OK in his own eyes and of the eyes of the community, therefore they can not easily admit that they are able of being something considered bad (they will go to hell ) they are often projecting on the outside what they can not deal with in the inside.

If you find this hard to believe, just think to how it seems much more easy to try changes others (by force and control) than to change a sole little habit of our own. It gives an idea.

The phenomenon of scapegoat is fascinating me. To animals, (the lamb, I am thinking of the symbol of Jesus on the cross, here) that were sacrified, the human sacrifices in the in some cultures, there is a rest of this to appease some angry god or mob : the psychological scapegot. Oh! it is all another subject.

In the beginning all mysteries were explained in relation with "act of gods" it was an irrational knowledge, because the rational knowledge was not at hand. I have the feeling that evolution of human beings leads them toward more and more concious knowledge, and that when they will be able to be fully couscious of themselves, they will stop to project on the outside. There will still have problems on Earth like love aches, diseases, natural disasters, and death but no problems will be created by human beings, like wars, pollutions, destroyed ecosystem, etc. etc.

I am a dye hard optimist.

So to your question I answered : because they are not fully counscious yet.

[bee]

Why I must continue in a club that I am upset with?

Dear FYS- That is where the problem is hiding-the club thing-if the Church was a club-it would be called a club, but it has different name, thus a different meaning. The switching of the name would somehow unburden your conciseness, but it does not change the truth of the matter.
I once knew a priest back in Europe then still under communism. The KGB blackmailed him, so he started to write atheistic articles in the newspapers, pretty naive in a sense and of course of materialistic-Marxist origins. Sure than he "quit" his priesthood, but the most appalling thing was that he wrote denunciations on other priests and they were send to Siberia for long time or to never return. He was just telling the people what a wonderful freedom from the dogma he has achieved, he was to become a new human being. The trouble was, that he started drinking more and more, till he was lying on the streets and dogs were peeing on him. I knew his younger brother, who was an artist, not believer anymore as well, but when this happened to his priest brother, he returned to the Church, even he was expelled for that from Academy of Arts. The ex-priest died from alchocolism(medically), he wrote something before he died about the bitter role of Judas he had overtaken.
Sure thing-freedom from dogma must be liberating, but than again-there could be an other one just waiting for you just around the corner-waiting for you with open arms. One would not even notice how easy it is to fall for that one.
FYS- life goes in cycles, we all now it, I am sure you do too.
Simon-Church is a living organism, has all the faults and mistakes and misery, just as we all do. We seldom enjoy the glory of being, but it is there.

[Kush]

Sure the church is a little out of step with modern reality......although being that way is hardly the privilege of catholicism/christianity...most 2000+ year old religions tend to be that way a little bit.

I wasn't born catholic, nor was I born christian and I do not subscribe to any religion....I don't believe it takes any of that nor does it take a rocket scientist to realize that John Paul II was a remarkable and charismatic leader whose life story is an example in itself. His greatest legacy was his ability to reach out to all groups of people and earn their respect, even those that disagree with him.

Most probably already have seen and read enough the last few days but the following link may shed some more light on this incredible person.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7359150/

[Tchocolatl]

Nice article Kush.

P.S to my previous post : the splitting into evil and good was a necessary step toward the Self according to CG Jung.

We could talk a lot about the crimes the Church has done during Its long history. The tortures, the Inquisition etc. etc. etc. Not only the Church but all the the religions, and we have even not peep into History at large.

It is strange how the doctrine of the communism is christian like*. The problem is human everywhere we are looking. Any social structure that we construct is made of us. Therefore, even the perfect theory would lead to a dead end until we have learn to master ourselves. The image I have is the baby that does not know yet, his toes are a part of him (or her).

I have faith - do not ask me why, I can not explain. I lost it during some times, then it came again stronger than before, so I understand people who are believers. And the non believer as well.

But religion and faith are not the same. Even if I recognize that old religions are a good vehicule to faith and spirituality when cleaned of the dogma. But I let this question to more religious people than I.





* I explain with a joke : this old man wanted to see the hell and the heaven before his death. As he was a man of good all his life, this was done. He looked at the hell : That was an endless table were hungry unfornutate people had a spoon with such a long handle that they are trying to feed themselves without sucess, again and again and again. Then he had a look to the heaven : the same endless table, the same spoons with the long handle, but only happy people around the table. He looked carefully then, he saw that the only difference were the people. Here they use the spoon to feed each others.

Communism (and all other workers mouvements) was a way to fight the "savage exploitation" that had no faith nor law but market and money (any human values). It was suppose to reinstaure these values of sharing equally with all.

(The best success was for the workers mouvements that have been able to cope with capitalism as History proved it.)

[lizzytysh]

Thank you for posting the link to that beautiful, very representative article, Kush. He covered so much ground and shed his light in previously dark areas of non-communication.

Tchocolatl ~ That is the best Heaven & Hell joke I've ever seen or heard. Thanks.

Love,
Lizzytysh

[bee]

Kush- very good site indeed, thank you.

It is strange how the doctrine of the communism is christian like

Tchoco, thank you for your answer to my question
But this one-the quote above-it is true and same time so far from the truth.
There was certain idealism in communistic ideas, which came straight from the Church of the first Christians-to be equal, to treat each other as brothers or sisters, to distribute equal. But then comes the other part-Why and what for? Just to be well fed and enough closed, not less or not more than the next to you? The first Christians had their motivation-to survive the persecution, to be as brothers, so they all would know-we love each other thus the Lord is among us. But for the communists it soon enough lost the very reason-what for? why should I have same as my lazy and stupid neighbor? There is no God, there is no Spirit, there are only things what would matter-what would please my flesh-plenty to eat, etc., (they didn't think at that time about the most desirable thing-the power) Communism survived 60 years and not at all being at that idealistic stage. From the very beginning it started not with-we would love to share, but with-give me what's yours. And why did they hate so much the Church?If they were so similar?
May be because the individual came first, as when for the communists-it was the will of the collective what mattered.
Church has survived 2000 years and not always at the best idealistic high's. Why she does survive?- there is something above just the ever changing will and tastes of the people, the very secret nucleus. no matter how wrong things can go at times.

Keep your faith, but please respect the others,

Simone- what is there to respect if you have fallen of the faith? Sure, I can understand that, because we all, I am pretty sure each and every one has gone trough a fase of loosing it, of doubts, questions, lonliness, feeling of abandonment. Just if you look at the lives of the Saints and temptations they suffered, it is all about loosing it. We all can relate to that. But to respect the fact that you've lost the battle, sorry, I cant respect that. And it does not matter what I do. It is a tough race, I just have to watch out for myself not to be last one.
When one thinks about how hard it is to believe in onesself, not to mention God, all we can do, dear Simonelimone- just get up and start painting again

[Mirek]

I wasn't born catholic, nor was I born christian and I do not subscribe to any religion....I don't believe it takes any of that nor does it take a rocket scientist to realize that John Paul II was a remarkable and charismatic leader whose life story is an example in itself. His greatest legacy was his ability to reach out to all groups of people and earn their respect, even those that disagree with him.

Yes, Kush... I cannot agree more. We have to look at THE MAN, and do it not throught the magnifying glass of church history.
The title of thi thread does not refer to the church, but only to this man, not because he was the leader of the church, but because he was Man of Peace. And it's quite simple why he was man of peace - that's because he knew what war is really about.
He really was a remarkable person - right now everyone can just turn on the TV to look at the crowds in Rome. No-one has ordered those people to go there - they just want to say good-bye to a Good Man - ant these are not only Catholics... not only Christians. Arab Leaders, Muslims, Dalai-Lama, even atheists...
And for me this is the final proof that this was a special Man.

And I am proud that he was born and raised here, in Poland.
And I am proud that I was able to listen to him, and to meet him in person 20 years ago. That was a special moment in my life.

Rest In Peace, John Paul II (born Karol Wojtyla)

Mirek

[ForYourSmile]

In front of your felt words I have to demonstrate my respect.

Your country suffered religious persecution and John Paul II fought to obtain this freedom, an essential freedom for which I also would fight. Let's think that if it is terrible that a religion is prohibited, also it's if it is imposed on you.
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Yes, bee, you have reason, the word "club" is not most succeeded to refer to the Catholic Church. I had other one to define exactly this rigid organization but I changed it because it was sounding pejorative.

I have my Faith: in my family, in some friends, in Leonard Cohen (with him I suffered a crisis, it's true) and, though in occasions it's not easy, in the whole humanity. I know that it is another concept of faith. I am not speaking about this gift that God gives us and that we must preserve to earn the salvation. I have never had this faith, I don't think it superior to mine and I don't need it. I believe that already I am saved if I can leave a good memory when my life ends.

Keep your faith, but please respect the others,

Absolutely in agreement, keep your Faith, my friend Bee, but please respect of the others, though it's different and you do not understand it. Be consistent with your doctrine; remember that you cannot use condom and all these funny things.

The religions, any of them, turn into a problem when they try to impose his "morality" beyond his parish church.

[Mirek]

Absolutely in agreement, keep your Faith, my friend Bee, but please respect of the others, though it's different and you do not understand it. Be consistent with your doctrine; remember that you cannot use condom and all these funny things.
The religions, any of them, turn into a problem when they try to impose his "morality" beyond his parish church.

Again - maybe you should start another thread - this one is not about the church and the doctrine.

Please, look closely at the title of the thread - and if you want to comment on other things, that's OK, but why doing it here?

Mirek

[Andrew McGeever]

To pronounce that ANY form of contraception (including condoms) is an "abomination" will be an enormous part of J.P. 2's legacy.
The Holy Roman Catholic Church will soldier on: another pope will be "elected" soon. And so it goes on: the one true global autocracy will hammer home the same dysfunctional message.
Meanwhile millions suffer for their "faith".
Andrew.

P.S. The world will be focussed on Rome on Friday: Italy has the lowest birth rate in the E.U.
I guess they've been too busy praying for years and forgotten about their duty to produce souls for G*d (i.e. children). Naughty Italian women! They should get back to their role in life: breed babies, as directed by the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Let men get on with the job of running everything else. Now there's a recipe for the century.

[Mirek]

To pronounce that ANY form of contraception (including condoms) is an "abomination" will be an enormous part of J.P. 2's legacy.

P.S. The world will be focussed on Rome on Friday: Italy has the lowest birth rate in the E.U.

Dear Andrew - as I already mentioned above - please, read THE TITLE of the thread (hint: that's something at the top).
Why are you discussing contraception here? What's more - as I can see you know very, very little about legacy of JP II.
You also know almost nothing about contraception and the church - you just copy some myths... and that is a shame for an adult man.
I could understand something like this if you were 15...
Could you provide me with the source of your profound "knowledge"?

"lowest birth rate" - where did you get that data from? Again - source, please.

Mirek

[September_Cohen]

I think Partisan is a better shit-dropper than me, concerning action.
But is way of thinking was so evident that just before he wrote, I bet at The Vegas Center and won bucks and chicks.

Come on man, you remember me a Shock Jock Morning man in a radio station of Quebec. His trick was the same of yours. "Say the complete opposition of everybody, because it is easy to prove that the poor middle-class dirty people are wrong"

Too easy, Partisan....com on be more subtle.
I win my days on you