The "you" and the "you"

[Sandra]

when we teach verbs we must put the pronouns like this.

I
you - tú - tu...
he
she
it
we
you - ustedes o vosotros - vous
they

And I always envy english speaking people that use only the YOU pronoun
in spanish and french and may be other languages there is a difference between the you (close relationship) and the you (when talking to strangers of higher position persons etc)
In other countries like Colombia there is other second person besides the tú and usted .......it is "su mercé" a sweet old fashion way to name people
Do you think this enriches the language or it is just nuisance...?

[Stranger]

Both: I think it enriches the language for those for whom it is their mother tongue, but it causes problems for those who have to learn it as a foreign language.

[Sandra]

Yes, I think it enriches the language, but it is a source of misunderstanding in some situations. I have been said "WE do not treat each other with "usted" here......" when meeting a group and I believe that is tough to say.......I find difficult to treat with tú some persons and feel better with usted when I do not want to let the other come closer . .. I feel strange when using ONLY YOU in english ....(I do not know if I am being clear
I really do not know if it is better or worse the tú and the usted.....

There is an old (and prejudice) saying in spanish that refers to prostitutes as
"women that smoke and treat you with "tú"

[lizzytysh]

That saying must have come into being before women were socially 'allowed' to kill themselves the same as men.

Yes, without the different forms of "you" here, you have to rely on subtler or more blatant ways of setting your boundaries with people you don't want to come closer.

I like the differences in the language. It's very nice, if you wanted to be able to make that distinction very clear, in writing or in speech, to be able to do so with a single word ~ yet, not offend anyone, either.

[Sandra]

Yes Lizzie ... it is interesting because we get to know other culture by the way they use the language and the distinctions they do.
In spanish there are some titles like don and doña....followed by the first name.

"were socially 'allowed' to kill themselves the same as men. "
I do not understand this...

[lizzytysh]

Dear Sandra ~

The phrase you're not understanding is my own, editorial comment on both smoking being a slow form of suicide; and of the social mores that used to prevail that had women hiding behind the woodshed to sneak a cigarette ~ the Virginia Slims advertising makes the point with some 'old-timey' photos and their catchphrase of, "You've come a long way, baby!" Unfortunately, that 'long way' has shortened their trip to the cancer ward.

Do these explanations help? If not, I'll try clarifying some more for you.

Yes, I like the way the language helps us to understand much about the differences in culture. I had a friend in the Keys, whose name was Dona, pronounced as though the squiggle [yeah, yeah, I know that's not the proper term, to whomever is going to insist on correcting me ] was over the "n". Her heritage has some Spanish and I think French.

~ Lizzy

[Sandra]

okay Lizzie, thank you for the explanation.
I have heard Dona too as a woman´s name but in spanish it is with ñ (you do not have that ) it is more like respectful way to talk.
Dona is like diminutive for madona too....

[Insanitor]

Hi Sandra

I speak a Slavic language as my mother tongue and we have a similar formal and informal you, (the plural and singular). This made it a whole lot easier to learn Spanish and French as far as understanding grammar. I think most European languages are structured in this way.

I learnt Spanish from a Colombian and then in Ecuador, where they don't really use the "vos" form. So I always find that confusing!

I like the formality or respectfulness it brings, but I can see why it would be confusing for English speakers. You know, children seem to go through a phase of using the (very bad slang) term "youse" for the plural you over here, and I can see where it adds meaning.

[Tchocolatl]

Things are never as simple with human beings!! The words are just vehicules for the energy of the person. You can pass a lot of despise in a so called respecfull formula (or word). The true respect for others does not need words to act as masks called politeness. Altough politeness is the best useful social mean to smooth social intercourses. And an "informal you" can be very warm and pleasant and full or true respect. And, yes, as vehicules, two pronouns permit little subtilities that just one can not allow. This is more fun.

Besides, you can offend somedody by using both these pronouns the first time you address to someone. The person may think that you are snob, old fashioned, stiff, cold, unfriendly, too friendly, too familiar, vulgar, the person can say nothing about this and have endless ressentment or answer back rudely and feel bad about you for creating a unpleasant moment. When I have no other means to know which pronoun a person prefer to be associated with, I ask the preference of the person and forget about mines in every new situation.

Usually in an unformal context where everybody uses the "familiar you" from "the beginning" I do not came with the "formal you" and vice versa. (Although they are always exceptions that prefer the other you than the one generally admitted by the group and answer that "nous n'avons pas gardé les cochons ensemble, à ce que je sache" ou "me prend tu pour ton grand-père?" the face showing the same shocking blolw, and so on and so on - nothing simple the socialization ).

For me, you may find this... but for myself I find a lot of poetry in those two different pronouns and what they imply.

[linmag]

I find it interesting, Sandra, that you envy the English our only having one 'you'. Could you explain why?

Personally, I have always envied those who spoke a language that had two forms of 'you'. We used to have it in English too, but we abandoned 'thou' in favour of the more formal 'you'. So we have left ourselves with no intimate or informal version, and I sometimes wonder if that has contributed to the image many other nations have of us as being a cold race (and I don't mean the weather!).

I get the impression that the opposite is happening with French at the moment. The use of 'tu' rather then 'vous' seems to be much more widespread than, say, thirty years ago. Are there any French speakers out there who would care to comment?

[Sandra]

Hello all!
well I am glad that you answer ....
Here in Chile we use tú and usted........in Argentina they use Vos and rarely tú........in the other countries in southamerica I am not sure ...
Well I said I envy the english you because it is easier to relate with only ONE pronoun. Here you must be aware of the situation, the environment you are , the age, etc not to fail in the use of the tu or the usted
I am aware that sometime it is useful in the sense that you may keep the other rather "far" when treating with "usted" but it is usually misunderstood in other social situations.........

[Tchocolatl]

I get the impression that the opposite is happening with French at the moment. The use of 'tu' rather then 'vous' seems to be much more widespread than, say, thirty years ago. Are there any French speakers out there who would care to comment?

As far as I am concern this is exact, Linmag. When I was a child you had to say "vous" the majority of time. Often, children were using "vous" to adress their mother and father (my own parents were "progressive" ones that preferred the use of the "tu"). My mother and her sister used to use "vous" with their respective brother in law (my ant with my father, my mother with my uncle and vice versa) even though the two couples saw each other regularly and we could say they were friends as well. Is this necessary to say that in more formal social encouters with "strangers" the "vous" was absolutely de mise?

Now, these days, if you came with a "vous", often people are freezing or laughing, or seems to feel uneasy. "Vous" is, most of the time, regarding as someone who are doing fuss. The use of "tu" is spread all over, now, but not in certain very traditional circles. And. They had reestablished the use of the formal pronoun in primary school for the students adressing to the teacher.

I would never think that people who are using the two "like" and "love" woulb be cold feet and non-subtil persons. In French we only have "je t'aime" which can lead to many misunderstandings in regard of the intention of the speaker and the fantasms of the listener. To have the same expression as "I like you" one is better to say "je t'aime bien" or even "je t'aime beaucoup. Not very hot, this, to hear.

[Nazaree]

In Quebec, at least, the "tu" is at times (and according to some) overused in the name of a certain democratic spirit--we're all equal, whether we are old, educated, rich, or young, uneducated, and poor. It's not meant in a disrespectful manner. Recently, however, several Quebec columnists have spoken up against what they perceive to be our terrible manners and, as a result, I notice that the "vous" has been reinstated in public spaces--in stores, cafés, and restaurants, sales clerks and waiters have gone back to the more formal "vous." My students (who are between the ages of 18 and 21) often call me "tu." It doesn't strike me as a mark of disrespect. After all, I still get to grade their work!! It just makes things a little less rigid. Similarly, in Morocco, where I lived for years, the local population tends to call everybody "tu," doctors and lawyers included. Again, no disrespect implied. Languages change, usage evolves (or regresses, depending on where you stand on the issue).

Nazaree

[linmag]

Hmmmm ~ maybe I don't envy you the tu/vous option after all! As an infrequent visitor to France these days, I probably label myself as an old relic as soon as I open my mouth. I just don't feel comfortable addressing a complete stranger as tu.

Tchocolatl, the like/love thing had not occurred to me before. Maybe I just never had the urge to tell anyone I loved them in French . Somehow je t'aime bien is always followed by mais, isn't it?

[Tchocolatl]

I am not living in France, and I just do not feel comfortable to addressing a complete stranger as "tu" (otherwise then in some situations described in my previous post).

I just do not feel that the "vous" is so out of date between complete strangers in social intercourses, in the contrary. Like, let say, if one adult is addressing to another in the street - asking for the good road or something like this - but what have changed is that the "vous" is not just the absolute rule anymore and also the time between the "vous" and the "tu" is shorter than before between adults.

Still iit is obsolete (among others) for people :

under 30 between themselves, nobody of this age will say "vous" to a peer but they will say it to older people than them; and

between adults that have to be together for work or any other goals, in an every day base, ususally.

"Somehow je t'aime bien is always followed by mais, isn't it?"

Yep. Spoken or underlying. Or just this "je t'aime bien" means "I do not love you". (I like you). But even "je t'aime" could be "I like you". "Je t'aime beaucoup" Oh this is the worst! this is the snake that bites its tail : "beaucoup" is the "coco prize" to comfort you not to have hit the jack pot. So, it is easier with "like" - no mistake or fantasy possible.

Nazarre, I have never noticed that people in public spaces were using the "tu" when adressing to clients. Oh! maybe it was me with my "vous" they answered me back as "vous" also.