Duco, Ducas, Ducat.

Andrew McGeever · Post by **Andrew McGeever** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:15 pm

I'm involved in the publication of a collection of poetry by Edinburgh writers who are also teachers. The proposed title is "Magistri Pro Pace",
(teachers for peace). It's an exciting project, not only for the fact that 7 of my scribblings will be included. The title led me to think back to my Latin days at high school. Here's the result:

Duco, Ducas, Ducat.

(for Derek Dawson)

In my school, every classics pupil scrawled
on their vocabulary jotter, Latin is
a dead language; as dead as dead can be.
Latin killed the Romans, and now
it's killing me. We never questioned
those sentiments; thought only of ruffling
Mr. Dawson, our Latin master.

Salvete discipuli!, he'd announce
with a swish of his gown, the tawse
just visible on his shoulder. Salve
magister!, we chanted in reply,
no Roman salutes in our school.
Declensions and conjugations were boot-camps
of discipline: ye gods, he drummed it in.

Yet he unveiled the ancient world to sons
and daughters of miners, lit a lamp,
armed us with knowledge of the language we speak:
lines to write on the jotter of his life.

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Andrew .....You make me remember when I studied at a nun´s school
and we had to sing in Latin this:

Pange lingua gloriosi
Corporis mysterium,
Sanguinisque pretiosi,
Quem in mundi pretium
Fructus ventris generosi,
Rex effudit gentium.

Nobis datus, nobis natus
Ex intacta Virgine
Et in mundo conversatus,
Sparso verbi semine,
Sui moras incolatus
Miro clausit ordine.

In supremae nocte cenae
Recum bens cum fratribus,
Observata lege plene
Cibis in legalibus,
Cibum turbae duodenae
Se dat suis manibus

Verbum caro, panem verum
Verbo carnem efficit:
Fitque sanguis Christi merum,
Et si sensus deficit,
Ad firmandum cor sincerum
Sola fides sufficit.

Tantum ergo Sacramentum
Veneremur cernui:
Et antiquum documentum
Novo cedat ritui:
Praestet fides supplementum
Sensuum defectui.

Genitori, Genitoque
Laus et iubilatio,
Salus, honor, virtus quoque
Sit et benedictio:
Procedenti ab utroque
Compar sit laudatio.

Amen.

margaret · Post by **margaret** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:26 am

Sandra, I also remember singing some of those Latin verses many years ago.

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:13 am

We are contemporary margaret

Andrew McGeever · Post by **Andrew McGeever** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:13 pm

Dear Sandra, Margaret et. al.,
I recognise the verses: it's the "Tantum Ergo" we used to sing at Benedictions on a Thursday evening. I'm humming the tune right now!
Church Latin though, is different from Classical Latin, certainly in the pronunciation of the words. At one stage in my life I could slip effortlessly from one to the other, but that was a long time ago!
Pax vobiscum,
Andrew.

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:14 pm

Dear Andrew ~

I've tried to keep regrets to a minimum. Just not much productive mileage can be gleaned from them. However, not taking Latin in high school remains one of mine. Such a depth of resourcing is there for the rest of your life. The language's conversational usage may be dead ~ but the language forever lives on in our written ones. I've tried to track down a Latin course since then, and they seem to be unavailable, at least in the directions I've sought.

Congratulations on the doing of this book, and your apparent prominence in it. I really like your poem commemorating it.

~ Elizabeth

tom.d.stiller · Post by **tom.d.stiller** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:22 pm

lizzytysh wrote:The language's conversational usage may be dead ~ but the language forever lives on in our written ones.

Absolutely right, Elizabeth.

I didn't learn Latin in school, but when my son did I decided to learn the lingua together with him. We did all the homeworks and translations in cooperation, and my understanding of all my reading and writing languages has vastly improved.

And I found that knowing Latin made learning new languages much easier.

Cheers
tom

linmag · Post by **linmag** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:54 pm

I really resented having to learn Latin at school. I could not see what possible use a dead language could be to me - for the first term at least. Then I began to see where English words had come from, and to understand how languages are related and are living, changing things. Now I wish I had learnt ancient Greek too.

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:40 pm

Exactly, Linmag and Tom. Such wisdom on your part, Tom.....to 'take' it in tandem with your son. Great opportunity gone unwasted.

Yes, and here you are, today, Linmag ~ working in languages. What a "Eureka!" your second term must have been

!

~ Elizabeth

LaurieAK · Post by **LaurieAK** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:11 pm

Dear Andrew~

I have no background in Latin or Catholicism, so I am forced to comment on your poem

Before I forget, please keep us in formed on how to obtain a copy of this publication. I am sure there others besides me who would like to buy a copy this book with 'our Andrew's' scribblings inside.

About the poem. I know it would mess up the 7-7-4 visual pattern, but did you consider putting the italicized portion separate? Not by blank lines, just all together and still italicized:

Latin is a dead language;
as dead as dead can be.
Latin killed the Romans,
and now it's killing me.

This line:

no Roman salutes in our school.

gives me pause each time I read it. It can be read two ways.

It is probably my negligence of the subject, but these are the 2 possible interepretations I see:
There are no Romans saluting in your school...or
There are no Roman salutes (a physical act).

Is it my lack of knowledge that is confusing me about that line?

Otherwise, another fine poem.

the "miners" next to "lamp" is clever. There is a pause created by the literal and metaphorical implications.

And my favorite: "...ye gods, he drummed it in."
Short but alot rides on that line.

regards,
Laurie

Andrew McGeever · Post by **Andrew McGeever** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:34 am

Two posts for the price of one:(how does he do it?)

Dear LaurieAK,
Thanks for your comments: I did think of putting the italicized portion on its own, but decided against it. I felt the verse would be best embedded in the stanza (either that or remove it, but it was important to indicate our teenage view of classics education).
A "Roman salute" is a euphemism for a fascist salute (as demonstrated frequently by followers of B. Mussolini, A. Hitler etc).

Dear Tom,
Your comments about learning Latin with your son were heart-warming, and the benefits you gained came as no surprise to me.

More will be posted re "Magistri Pro Pace" in due course (but it's now 8 scribblings from me, an increase of 1!).

Andrew.

LaurieAK · Post by **LaurieAK** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:01 am

Dear Andrew~

Thanks for the explanation regarding the salute. Now that you state this, of course I should have known...but leave it to me to ask the 'dumb' questions.

Eight poems! Keep us abreast....

regards,
L

tom.d.stiller · Post by **tom.d.stiller** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:37 am

To add some information to the Mussolini references...

I don't think that the title is a randomly chosen conjugation.

Duco, Ducas, Ducat = I lead, you lead, he/she leads

The verb ducare (duco, duxi, ductus) is at the root of the title Mussolini took on: "Duce". Hitler, later, took over the title, simply translating it to "Führer".

Andrew McGeever · Post by **Andrew McGeever** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:47 pm

Dear Tom,
Thanks for posting the title link.
Yet I'm still concerned about the title: I think the verb is second conjugation, i.e. ducere, as opposed to ducare. This would make the title "Duco, Ducis, Ducit".
It's been a long time since I studied the most laconic language ever written, but "Alea jacta est".
Andrew.

tom.d.stiller · Post by **tom.d.stiller** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:12 pm

Yes Andrew, it's ducere, and thus it should be duco, ducis, ducit. I made the mistake to conclude from your title which infinitive it is...

Cheers
tom