cambridge university course to include study of leonard

[sebmelmoth2003]

this weekend!!

A short course focusing its attention on two giants of modern songwriting will be run by the University early in the new year.

The course, entitled 'Changing Times', will look at both the lyrics and the music of Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen.

It is being run by the Institution of Continuing Education, a constituent part of the University, which provides short courses and public lectures delivered by Cambridge academics.

'Changing Times' will be led by poet and novelist Jem Poster, and guitarist and musicologist Stephen Ferron. Poster worked as an archaeologist before becoming a lecturer at Oxford University and Emeritus Professor of Creative Writing at Aberystwyth University.

Ferron has an MA in World Music from the University of Sheffield and is currently co-producing an album with acoustic Americana group The Red Planet.

The two-day course will be held on Saturday 28 and Sunday 29 January, with a related musical event (Bonus Tracks) taking place on the Saturday. Primarily, it will consider songs written during the 1960s.

Both musicians have discussed their admiration of the other. Bob Dylan, whose career has spanned more than five decades, has previously stated that he "like[s] all of Leonard’s songs, early or late”, and after Dylan became the first musician to win the Nobel Prize for Literature earlier this year, it was reported that Cohen had said: “To me [the award] is like pinning a medal on Mount Everest for being the highest mountain.”

The first day of the course will be largely devoted to Dylan, while the second day will focus on Cohen, who died in November.

Participants can attend either or both sessions.

http://www.tcs.cam.ac.uk/news/0036383-n ... cohen.html

http://www.ice.cam.ac.uk/course/changin ... nard-cohen

[Geoffrey]

Both musicians [Dylan and Cohen] have discussed their admiration of the other. Bob Dylan, whose career has spanned more than five decades, has previously stated that he "like[s] all of Leonard’s songs, early or late” . . .

a notable difference between these two artists is that one would have to look hard to find anything unsavoury in dylan's songwriting. i love most of leonard's work, but while he could include such cringeworthy lines as "giving me head", "anal sex", "hard-on" or "cardboard and piss" - dylan managed to write good songs that didn't require language of that sort. perhaps leonard was simply aiming at 'shock value' lyrics - i have no idea. if anyone could shine a light on this it would be interesting to read

[lizzytysh]

Always the outside views for thought, g. Interesting point you've made thru your selection of lyrics. Perhaps, there were just prudes on the Nobel Selection Committee, so Leonard didn't make the cut.

[ForYourSmile]

a notable difference between these two artists is that one would have to look hard to find anything unsavoury in dylan's songwriting. i love most of leonard's work, but while he could include such cringeworthy lines as "giving me head", "anal sex", "hard-on" or "cardboard and piss" - dylan managed to write good songs that didn't require language of that sort. perhaps leonard was simply aiming at 'shock value' lyrics - i have no idea. if anyone could shine a light on this it would be interesting to read

I was surprised by your opinion; I had never perceived that "notable difference".
In addition to your quotes we can add a part of Cohen's written work that we could consider pornographic. I find it amusement, there are two of your quotes in which I have had a certain dissent with Cohen, but for different reasons to you: Chelsea Hotel for indiscretion and The Future for excessive social pessimism.

Cohen had a deep intellectual and literary foundation, his style and work has another audience, sensitivity and way of expression, even without the Nobel, say this with my great admiration for Dylan.

Speaking of unsavoury sensations, recently talking with a friend about Henry Miller and Egon Schiele, I found myself observed as a moralist The friend told me that my point of view was a consequence of being a father and grandfather of girls. Or it could be due to my age. Anyway I hope it never happens to me with Cohen

[Geoffrey]

Interesting point you've made thru your selection of lyrics. Perhaps, there were just prudes on the Nobel Selection Committee, so Leonard didn't make the cut.

In addition to your quotes we can add a part of Cohen's written work that we could consider pornographic. I find it amusement, there are two of your quotes in which I have had a certain dissent with Cohen, but for different reasons to you: Chelsea Hotel for indiscretion and The Future for excessive social pessimism.

thank you for the comments above, edited to reduce excess repetition.
it certainly could be that there were prudes on the nobel committee, but i doubt that vulgarity was the reason for leonard's exclusion. more likely that dylan's songwriting has influenced a greater number of people and is more of a well-known name.

i note with interest the dissent concerning leonard's indiscretion and excessive pessimism. to his credit, he apologised for naming janis, and his 'pessimism' often contained a hint of sardonic humour. he could really be a funny man, both in public and privately.

it is wrong to believe that leonard, or anyone else, was/is perfect, of course. there is a crack in everything, and that's how the shadows get in. it is common to utter obscene words when one is stung by a wasp, because that can be a spontaneous reaction that functions as a valve letting out steam. yet there is a big difference when writing down those words, especially in a song that is to be performed on a stage with an audience. then there is no spontaneity, it is but an intended and premeditated attempt to shock.

we must remember that both dylan and leonard were dependant upon their fans in order to put bread on the table. dylan knew that by embracing christianity he could expand his popularity, but leonard took it a little further by appealing also to foul-mouthed, music-loving philistines. i guess it's just business.

[ForYourSmile]

Thanks Geoffrey I have always read your comments with interest and admired your paintings. At the risk of further straying from the topic I would still like to add a couple of things.

In my opinion, neither Dylan nor Cohen were ever interested in a religion for "business", for them it was a "matters of vital interest" (Eric Lerner).

The open expression uncensored of feelings, maybe a necessity for the author, produces an authentic work, a deep communication, this is how art is created, which due to its quality can “put bread on the table”.
I'm sorry that these "obscene words" can make you uncomfortable, take it as that "a hint of sardonic humour" that we appreciate so much from Cohen. These expressions are part of Cohen's work, a sincere work without any premeditated attempt to shock.

[Geoffrey]

thank you for your warm compliments. it is so uplifting to know that someone takes an interest in my messages and pictures. i shouldn't worry too much about 'straying from the topic'. as leonard once wrote: "what harm will it do to the stars?" authoritarians will always be ready to pounce, and bringing them out from the cracks brings much satisfaction. besides, are we not discussing the work of dylan and leonard!

about my 'religion/business' comment: you will note that it was just a guess - a supposition. as long as one is not over-cynical, i believe it healthy to question someone's actions. as you know, fans are often reluctant to find fault in the behaviour of their idols, because to do so would lessen the value of their devotion.

thank you again, and be well

[Kush]

Leonard Cohen:
I saw a beggar leaning on his wooden crutch,
he said to me, "You must not ask for so much."

Bob Dylan:
And I, I never took much
I never asked for your crutch

And I lift my glass to the awful truth
which you can't reveal to the ears of youth

All the truth in the world
Adds up to one big lie


And I'd howl at your beauty
Like a dog in heat

I kissed goodbye to the howling beast
At the borderline that separated you from me

I can't forget but I don't remember what

Someday I will remember to forget

"Command of what, there's no one here
There's only you and me --
All the rest are dead or in retreat
Or with the enemy."

My sword's in my hand, I am next in command
In this version of death called life

My mirror twin, my next of kin
I'd know you in my sleep.

I fought with my twin, that enemy within
Till both of us fell by the way

I'll be wearing a river's disguise

Everybody's wearing a disguise

I loved you in the morning, our kisses deep and warm,
your hair upon the pillow like a sleepy golden storm

She could feel my despair as I climbed up her hair
And discovered her invisible self

Like any dealer he was watching for the card
that is so high and wild, he'll never need to deal another

The card's are no good that you are holding
Unless they are from another world


Don't drink from that cup
It's all caked and cracked along the rim

I will wait for them to interrupt
Me drinking from my broken cup

Now in Vienna there's ten pretty women
There's a shoulder where Death comes to cry

While his genocide fools and his friends rearrange
Their religion of little ten women


"I'm on the side that's always lost
Against the side of Heaven"

I see pieces of men marching
Trying to take Heaven by force

It's like our visit to the moon or to that other star
I guess you go for nothing if you really want to go that far.

Man has invented his doom
First step was touching the moon

Bob Dylan:
I got a cravin' love for blazing speed, got a hopped up Mustang Ford
Jump into the wagon, love, throw your panties overboard

Leonard Cohen:


/*edited to correct a Dylan lyric */

[Geoffrey]

Leonard Cohen:
I saw a beggar etc. etc, etc

and . . . ?
(adding substance to a post would make it more interesting )

[Kush]

Ah sorry I thought my post spoke for itself !

The point being they are more similar than not in how they use language around similar topics. IMHO.

edit:
To elaborate a little more, I was also loosely imagining old bluesmen trading licks or subcontinental poet-musicians trading couplets in royal courts ! In these cases I think it is more improvised and making things up on the spot, which is obviously not the case with LC and BD.

And in a few cases, you would have to reverse the order for it to work

For example, this sequence may work better. It's fun.

My sword's in my hand, I am next in command
In this version of death called life

"Command of what, there's no one here
There's only you and me --
All the rest are dead or in retreat
Or with the enemy."

The first two minutes of this video --- the actor Naseeruddin Shah even looks a little bit like LC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DinEYZvLuxk

[LisaLCFan]

Ah sorry I thought my post spoke for itself !

The point being they are more similar than not in how they use language around similar topics. IMHO.

This is not my opinion, rather, it is an observation: most of the supposedly "similar" quotes that you have provided are not even close -- the vast majority of them have only one word in common, but otherwise, they are totally different in almost every respect!

[Geoffrey]

Kush wrote:
>Ah sorry I thought my post spoke for itself !

it's ok. no need to be sorry, because your input is very appreciated.
it's just that you write on a level that my reasoning finds difficult to grasp.

wishing you well

[Kush]

It is something I do sometimes (convolving different artistes words together) that may or may not make sense but it amuses me (clearly it does not take much ). The term in Indian classical instrumental music is "jugalbandi" or "entwined twins"

Here is one that is more contemporary:

Sturgill Simpson:
Having one-way conversations with the darkness in my mind
He does all the talking 'cause I'm the quiet kind

Ben Harper:
Preacher said "Be careful talking to yourself
Cause you may be listening."


Wishing you well too. Until we meet again

[river's_disguise]

The first two minutes of this video --- the actor Naseeruddin Shah even looks a little bit like LC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DinEYZvLuxk

To my mind, a lot of Indian/Asian music (and poetry) carries all the colours of Dylan and Cohen and then some.

On topic though, BoM verse 2 always struck me as being a template for a Dylan lyric...