Kris Kristofferson

This section is for all other music-related topics
User avatar
tom.d.stiller
Posts: 1213
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
Location: ... between the lines ...
Contact:

Post by tom.d.stiller »

linda_lakeside wrote:I don't claim to know a lot about film either. I'm one of those "I don't know art, but dammit, I know what I like!" sorts of people. However, and I say this with much gratitude, I know you may not agree with what I say, but you'll fight to the death for my right to say it. Thanks. 8)

Linda.
It seems, Linda, we're in the same club. Today I happen to agree with you, but tomorrow I might be forced to club someone real hard questioning your right to say something I consider fatally wrong. Just now, of course, I can't even imagine what the reasons for that broken skull might be :) Time will tell, and good surgery'll hopefully heal the wounds...

Cheers for now
tom
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee »

Well, Linda and Tom&co
It is a strange thing about art, that we always tend to compare and sort of look for- who is better or what is better. But art is not sports, in it's ambiquity as if without a goal even-(. of course- in of terms of technique there are certain standarts and pretty much set lines- what is bad and what is a level, below which it could not be considered as professionally countable. Also that could be arguable too, may be).
Tom, see there is a difference what are we looking for also, it counts. As I understand - you would rather prefer sincerity, closness to reality of feelings, or emotion. But one has to admitt, that it is not always the case- there are people who look and serch for intelectual stimulation or intelectual revelations or something to that effect- it goes for artists as well is it goes for people who need art in their lives.
In this particular case- talkin about Tarantino, Tom - you are right, he still has way long too go, but remember- he really is still very young, he must be only 40 or smth?
And other thing for him is- that he is a great writer as well, the best scripts are written by him in many films. He not only knows and deeply feels style, he not only understands beauty so well, but he also is a complete original, he has substance in himself.
Don't you think that Pulp Fiction changed so much in filmmaking as well as in film watching? Like many here feel about Leonard Cohen, - they can't listen to less than LC, the way to write a song has changed in their perception. I think we are so lucky QT is still so young, we are going to enjoy so much more from him. God bless his heart 8)
bee
User avatar
tomsakic
Posts: 5274
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:12 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Post by tomsakic »

I like Tarantino very much (particularly the Kill Bill movies) but I think Jurica nailed it correctly, and tom's words "stylish is his strenght, but also his weakness" exactly describes him. Btw, Pulp Fiction didn't change much, bee, it was already all used, Tarantino's movie only got cool and then all wanna-be directors started to use "postmodern" techniques. And the narrative structure of Pulp Fiction isn't complicated at all (try to dissolve what's happening in Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad for instance). Also, bee, jurica's right about the direcors he mentioned - when you see them all, and you know they made their movies before Tarantino, you cannot think of him as great anymore. He surely knows what he tooks and where, and then he can use it (and many will find him "cool"). I think that jurica once told me, scene by scene, all Japanese, Chinese, Hong-Kong and Peckinpah's movie sof which the Kill Bill scenes are homages/remakes/quotation/stealing. Eveyr single scene is seen before. And it's great, still. But not great as Peckinpah or the original Takashi Miike or Takeshi Kitano's movies.

I didn't read Truffaut's book of conversations with Hitchcock (yes, its title is, well, Hitchcock :D ). Probably because I found Truffaut's movies very weak, except for the first one (400 Blows, and maybe Jules and Jim (blasphemy, blasphemy - I hear thousands of film historicians/theorists/afficionados screaming). I feel the same most time about the 2nd big "new wave" director, J-L Godard. I prefer New Wave directors from the left side of the Seine, the intelectuals like Jacques Rivette, one&only Alain Resnais (I ordered his classic Last Year at Marienbad all way from the US), Agnes Varda. On the other side, I never was in Hitchock cult, although I love his movies from the best phase (North by Northwest, Dial M For Murder, Rear Window), although the others are also very good/excellent. I guess I like those because of their 50s stylishness.

So I didn't hear that story about Jimmie's eyes, but that effect is well known in film history. Now, that was discovered in USSR in 1920s, in their avant-garde "montage school" of cinematography (Eisenstein etc, who used editing as their main tool). The formula - the main effect which lets the film actually to exist as medium, thru its editing/cuting techniques - is A+B=C. That's famous Lev Kuleshov's experiment with actor Mozhuhin,
known as the "Kuleshov effect" in which, through montage, each shot acquired a different shade of meaning according to its place in the sequence. He edited Mozhuhin's face, free of any expression, into various contextual scenes, and then showed to the experimental public (his face+the hot soup=he's hungry; his face+child in play; + sexy girl; + the gun directed into the screen), with different conclusions from the public, of what's going on in the movie. The same shot of Mozhuhin's face was used - the same as Hitchcock. Now, I do believe both Tfuffaut and Hitchock were to much educated they didn't know that.

My favourite story, tom, is by John Ford (from his utterly stupid interview with Peter Bogdanovich, due to the Bogdanovich's questions). He asked him many questions like "Did you notice that your worldview becomes more pessimisitc with the years?" (John Ford: "No"), or "I adore the scene bla-bla-bla. How did you shot that?" (John Ford: "With the camera"). The latter answer is used many times in film theory. But the highpeak of the interview was the final question: "What's the message of your movies?". Now, John Ford's answer is used in many different art areas as the answer to those who're trying to analyse art: When I want to send a message, I use the post service. 8)
User avatar
tomsakic
Posts: 5274
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:12 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Post by tomsakic »

Just two addition:
1. although I am not great Al Pacino fan, he is reknown as great Shakespearen actor, linda, and the movie Looking for Richard, directed by him, is very notable (if I remember well, that's an amalgam of moments from various Shakespeare's plays?)
Anyway, linda, I am trying to remember where Mel Gibson played Shakespeare??? Al pacino and Mel surely aren't in same level of comparation, particularly with Mel's recent dropouts like Passion, We Were Soldiers etc. John Wayne is little baby for him, and Charlton Heston could learn from him.

2. Peckinpah and censorship. Well, I'm afraid, because the UK produced Straw Dogs are his weakest film, for me. I prefer his (post)westerns still. If the censorship made him so great, well... Btw, my favourite Peckinpah movie is The Iron Cross, which he shot in Croatia in late 1970s. I believe there was no censorship, and the editing is crazier than ever - like in mentioned Resnais' movie, here's very very difficult to comprehend which narrative level/time is going on. Something similar is experienced in John Boorman's Point Blank (Lee Marvin enters the room, he sees the window, he turns out, there's other furniture, he turns out, there's no window etc. The time shifting in one spacial scene - unbelievable!) . Forget Pulp Fiction when you experience such cinema (not to mention one Russian man called Andrei Tarkovsky)
jurica
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:31 pm
Location: Croatia

Post by jurica »

Tom, your two posts here should be published and read not as a part of stupid debate, but as great essays!
Tom Sakic wrote: Probably because I found Truffaut's movies very weak, except for the first one (400 Blows, and maybe Jules and Jim (blasphemy, blasphemy - I hear thousands of film historicians/theorists/afficionados screaming). I feel the same most time about the 2nd big "new wave" director, J-L Godard.
come to think about it; Tarantino has more to do with them than Peckinpah, doesn't he? they were also 'film loving crowd' that learned their trade (too?) well from great directors before them, right?
Tom Sakic wrote: Now, John Ford's answer is used in many different art areas as the answer to those who're trying to analyse art: When I want to send a message, I use the post service. 8)
a painter friend of mine made me watch his appearance on TV, and when a host asked him 'what's the message of his paintings' he answered: 'i use SMS to send messages'.

damn! i thought he was so cool to think of that! knowing this certanly lowered him in my eyes.
jurica
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:31 pm
Location: Croatia

Post by jurica »

Tom Sakic wrote:Btw, my favourite Peckinpah movie is The Iron Cross, which he shot in Croatia in late 1970s.
i haven't seen that one! do you have it on tape, CD or DVD?
User avatar
Kush
Posts: 3203
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2002 1:21 am
Location: USA

Post by Kush »

In Merchant of venice Al Pacino is completely bearded so his gauntness or non-gauntness is a non-issue. It is a very powerful performance i think.

Bee...I have seen only pulp fiction by Mr. Tarantino and I did not like it at all. But that was a long time ago so maybe I should give him and P.F. another shot. I remember the first time I saw The Truman show I disliked it but a few years later I really enjoyed it on DVD. You have a point about art not having an objective scale like sport so better or worse is quite subjective.
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee »

Also, bee, jurica's right about the direcors he mentioned - when you see them all, and you know they made their movies before Tarantino, you cannot think of him as great anymore. He surely knows what he tooks and where, and then he can use it (and many will find him "cool"). I think that jurica once told me, scene by scene, all Japanese, Chinese, Hong-Kong and Peckinpah's movie sof which the Kill Bill scenes are homages/remakes/quotation/stealing. Eveyr single scene is seen before. And it's great, still. But not great as Peckinpah or the original Takashi Miike or Takeshi Kitano's movies
TomS- right, but remember- that is nothing new in art making- and it is not called stealing- it is called - influenced :) Just as you think of art of painting- even Raphael took the painting from the old Greek- 3 Graces - he just took the whole composition as such, with only tiny bit of alteration in drawing- such as a torso bit shorter or a hand lifted up slightly more- and here you go- there is Raphael's great painting. What about Picasso- he "stole" just everything there is to steal- starting from antiquity to Zurbaran, Goya etc. including even his collegues- Matisse :) And thus- isn't Picasso considered as a gratest painter of the last century :?
There is not much new in art and never will be- it is all in presentation and technique. sort of new filter. Like Picasso would just ignore the space and planes by doing it just flat on, achieving what he wants by different means- using color as plane by itself.
Tarrantino was clear about using the "spaghetti westerns" , hong-kong etc. combining and shifting and mixing- it was quite clear from the beginning that he will do "stilization of different styles" I think it is a marvelous, almost childlike attitude, like playing, which is most attractive in art, when same time it is done with professional mastery.
But not great as Peckinpah or the original Takashi Miike or Takeshi Kitano's movies
[/quote]- so perhaps one can think that the Raphael's painting was not as great as a original greek version-on the wall? In fact- nobody cares about the original long time ago no more, they both are great. When one sees a great river flawing- would they wonder too often- where the sources come from?
TomS- have you read that book- "sex, drugs and rock'n roll"- about beginings of Bogdanovich, Scorsese, Coppola etc. Somebody stole it from me- so I can't right away tell you the name of the autor, it is a great book
Kush- you certainly should watch again Pulp Fiction, I can't still believe that you haven't paid attention to that. Of course it has become a cult movie long ago, there are clubs of pulp fiction funs etc. Pay attention where Tarantino himself is there on screan- playing such a dork and bragging about his good taste in coffe- it is hilarious.
Not to mention the Kill Bill- the critiques were bashing Tarrantino- violance an blah blah, what an idiocy.
It is light and still so dramatic, is playful, still brings up the cultural images, even the ancient tragedies, (ravange etc.)- so that puts the all "Troy" bullshit with Brad Pitt's golden hair to such a shame.
Kush, I am begging you to go get the pulp fiction and the kill bill's right away, I am so sure you'll enjoy it enormously
bee
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee »

TomS- yes, the Tarkowski- but didn't his sources come from Ingmar Bergman and Fellini? sure it did, and a great deal, still he made a name for himself and good for him. It is so clever, so wise to learn from the learned :D
bee
User avatar
linda_lakeside
Posts: 3857
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea..

Post by linda_lakeside »

jurica, Tom , bee, the whole lot of you,

Hi,

When I saw Eisenstein's name, I knew I was in for a lesson. I'll have to come back to this post later, when I have more time (sneaking a few minutes here).

Gibson (if not mentioned somewhere in the above essay :wink: did Hamlet.

See you guys, later,
Linda.
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee »

a painter friend of mine made me watch his appearance on TV, and when a host asked him 'what's the message of his paintings' he answered: 'i use SMS to send messages'.

damn! i thought he was so cool to think of that! knowing this certanly lowered him in my eyes.
_________________
Jurica- this is something I just cant resist commenting on, including some questions.
What lowered him in your eyes?
1)because he was using expression which was already used by some famous guy?
2)because you did not like the unswer which would conceal the truth?or you consider the answer pretty cool of the previous guy, but it was lowered by the use of your friend?
Have you ever thought about the one who is asking such a banality- especially to the painter- what's the message?, it sucks so bad, it sounds like an offence in itself- painting has never been a messanger, it has tottaly different cultural and esthetic value. Only if interviewer is compleate fool and tottaly oblivious of the art of painting, who would ask most offensive question, which sounds more like a ridicule than an honest question. (If I were you friend i woul'd have slapped the stupid bastard- your friend was a nice and good guy, I'm not so good with miserable fools)
Even while asked to a filmmaker- which is more socially inclined art form in itself- it sucks so dreadfully- what was the message?
If you did not get the message, it is not worth talking about with you, why would I answer to that- so you can later ridicule me?
Also, what artist woould spil his guts out to any reporter it is beyond me. Nobody ever, no artist would ever tell about his trade to any god damn reporter ever, unless he is tortured to death. Of course the artist would have to give some sort of answer- but it is always a smoke screen, always.
Artist talks only to other artist and only the one, he trusts deeply- about the trade they share. Any other talk is stories and bullshit which has to be given to keep the others happy.
bee
User avatar
tomsakic
Posts: 5274
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:12 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Post by tomsakic »

I agree that "postmodern quotations" (as it's called) is excelently working in Tarantino's movies and I don't have anything against it, but sometimes, there must be some deeper purpose behind it, although the art can be regarded only as play, also. Tarantino is good (I like Kill Bills very much), but - I think tom.d. said that greatly - his strength is also his weakness. Often he misses something more in the material, something deeper beyond the picture. Now, I know you're Tarantino fan and you'll defend him, but go and see one Takeshi Kitano's movie (Hana-Bi, or Sonatine). There's something more in them, something human. Maybe that's in his humanity, maybe it's in characters, maybe it's in emotion. Kitano admitebly is one of the great director of our time (along with Lars von Trier or Mike Leigh).
I do agree that "influence" or in better word, "citation"/"quotation" is main source for the art. But it's not all in technique. The great film directors are not great (only) because of their techniques - the same with the writers - but also for their "something deeper beyond it", the story? The ideas? The emotion? The cognition of our world? Of human condition? I.e., I do like LC's techniques, but it's not only that; he could sing/write in same way but about revolution (like Dylan used to do long ago), or whatever, ships and streets of his city, and I'd never listened him in my life time, I presume. So, Kill Bills are great as playful film art and even its occasional kitsch, but I do recollect gladly how, when all critics said that Jackie Brown is shit, I enjoyed it because I felt he reached beyond the style to get something from the characters.

As for Tarkovski, I don't think that his work can be leveled to influences. Bergman is great (in 60s particucarly, after that he became old & boring), Fellini's work I do appreciate although there's no single film in his oeuvre I can relate to (except maybe Amarcord), but Andrei Tarkovski made one of best body of work in whole history of cinema, and his influence and reach goes beyond every possible comprehension. That's because he only succed in reaching the ulterior areas, I'd say very close to space where you could say that G-d lives. (The Mirror, Stalker, Solaris, and the grand colour finale of Andrei Rublev, where the film reaches beyond our world). So I'd say he made more than "name for himself". I hope your attitude hasn't to do anything with the fact he was Russian. In any case, he finished his life in exile?
User avatar
tomsakic
Posts: 5274
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:12 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Post by tomsakic »

Linda, I checked IMDB for Mel Gibson, and you're right, there was Hamlet in 1990 by Franco Zeffirelli. I never heard of that movie. I think Zeffirelli is old boring Italian director making movies such as Tea With Mussollini or Callas Forever. He made famous (and actually really great) adaptation of Romeo and Juliet in , and after that his whole career was only search for the new adaptation hit (he made Othelo in 1980s, and Jane Eyre and filmed many operas).
Only interesting thing is that he made Brother Sun Sister Moon in 1972, released on DVD in 2004. It's about life of St Francis, and the blurb on DVd says it's famous because he wanted the Beatles to act in it, and then Caetano Veloso. Finally Donovan made soundtrack and appeared in ti. But Ira Nadel wrote in his book that LC was due to appear in the movie, and to write the soundtrack. I guess he made some job, because parts of it finished in Death of a Ladies' Man, like:
Now the master of this landscape
he was standing at the view
with a sparrow of St. Francis
that he was preaching to.
She beckoned to the sentry
of his high religious mood.
She said, “I’ll make a place between my legs,
I’ll show you solitude.”
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee »

TomS-
There's something more in them, something human. Maybe that's in his humanity
Tom- I certainly agree with you on the very idea what you are saying, however, there again comes the question- why this has to be compared in order to say that one is better than other?
It is just different- different in style or a task or a goal what the artist has set for himself, or perhaps, what was the revelation, or if that is not the right word, the point at his artistic life where he wanted to explore this or something else. He might completely turn around in a year or 2 and come to something else. This is my main objection from the very beginning of this discussion. The way Tarrantino is- it is how he is and he does not need to be better, just like the other guy, does he? Is Matisse better than Picasso, him better than Manet, Manet better than Ingres? Of course not- each one is a whole and complete world in itself. Most likely- I might have preferences, you might have preferences, we can discuss the aspects of these preferences from the angle of the impact on art as such, or personal, or cultural. Sure, there is always the temptation- in order to understand better we would emphasize the weakest side of the one which perhaps is not on the list of our favorites, we all have sinned in this. Still, to pursue intelectually honest and fruitful discussion, it is worth trying to avoid these traps.
About Tarantino.
Tom- I totally agree with you on Jackie Brown- I adore that movie. He made some mistakes perhaps in choice of the cast, but I believe he did what he thought was right at the moment, one can never predict the outcome, no matter how carefull and hard one works.
You have to know a bit about him where he is coming from. I don't think he ever graduated from college, perhaps now he has, or may be he bought the papers, I don't know :lol:
His mom were traveling all over California, never really settling down anywhere, living in some suburbs- the most boring places in universe, there were also several boyfriends. Imagine living in let's say- place like San Leandro or Livermoore or Fresno. Every time I would have to go there- I wonder how come these people have not commited collective suicide, not by being cult memebers, but out of hopeless boredom.
QT- as a boy sitting in in his mam's apartment, watching TV, watching movies- there was nothing else to do, he had no friends, he was a newcommer everywhere, and other times looking trough comic books.
That was his world and his inspiration. It was the source where he was learning from -about life and art and beauty, tragedies and betrayals, revange and passion. I think the stilization he really learned there, because in the comics- it has to be very laconic, organized.
Other thing which came to his advantage was his mom's boyfriend- a black guy. He learned from him the style only black guys posess- the talk and the walk, the images, the likings and tastes.
It is almost like Elvis Presley, who learned so much from the black kids on the streets- the moves, the twists, the smooth talk, the use of the gentle vibration of the voice.
Well, I am not a expert on this, but sure, QT was introduced to the subculture so strong in artistic influences of culture in USA, it opened his eyes to deapth of things white guys don't know and will never guess.
And you can see it all in his work, not directly- but this is what he has been opened to. His talent, his big brain and his fanatical nature, and most of all- his imagination was leading him wher he is today.
He was so young when he was hired as a script writer in Hollywood. jeezz, I don't know - he is fenomenal to overcome all this shit around, most of all- Hollywood , the hellhole of wolfs and lions and jackals and rats, who don't give a damn about art, just $$$$ He did not have high protectors or big moneys from good standing family, or Hollywood "royalty".
Just he, himself, his soul and mind. Of course - Lady Luck is a must as always. OK, that's enough for tonight.
I would love to talk about Tarkovsky with you, juss when I gets up.
bee
jurica
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:31 pm
Location: Croatia

Post by jurica »

bee wrote: What lowered him in your eyes?
wait... i didn't even read to the end of your post, since it was based on totaly wrong assumption.

the question was totaly and utterly stupid. i mean: what do you expect of a TV show?

the answer was just right. and this guy was quite close friend, i saw him every day, and i told him how smart the answer was, and he didn't do as much as (not in the show nor later) say: i borrowed it from John Ford. or: i've heard simillar thing said by someone else.

the moment he said that in TV show, he rose up in my eyes. now that i know he didn't think of it by himself - he's back from where he started. that's what i meant by 'lowered'. when you quote something, you are supposed to say so, not pretend that it's your own idea.
Post Reply

Return to “Other music”