Are Leonard Cohen's lyrics influenced by Buddhism?

[B4real]

Hi remote1, holydove and Lilyfire,

I was just reading some posts in the poetry section and I came across this bit of interesting information about Leonard on Buddism and Jewish influences which I thought you all might find informative and thought provoking.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6251&start=60#p219764

The above relates to the comments below:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=20040&start=45

[Lilifyre]

Thank you for the reference, B4real. Obviously, as I mentioned, Leonard has been influenced by many many experiences in his life. Judaism and Buddhism probably rank near the top of the list as major influences. He manages to incorporate both in his work without compromising the importance of either. That is a very difficult action indeed. What comes thru is a truth to himself. He speaks from his own integrity always. He manages to bring his spirituality into the mundane, everyday world and elevates the purely physical to a spiritual realm. He makes no judgment of others, but honors the whole. Perhaps that is what makes him so great.

Lili

[holydove]

Thank you for the link, Be4Real.

Just for the sake of discussion/comment: while I do think Leonard is first & foremost a very dedicated Jew (he has said that he doesn't consider Zen Buddhism a new religion - he sees it just as a good practice - & says that he doesn't need a new religion because he already has a very good one); that being said, I have the verse from the Book of Mercy in front of me, & I'm not so sure that the "new thing" would refer to Buddhism. First of all, about the line ". . .do not leave me here, where death is forgotten, and the new thing grins.": death is far from forgotten in Buddhism (esp. Tibetan Buddhism, which he has studied) - in fact, the entire study & practice is aimed at getting the practitioner to a state of mind where he/she will be able to maintain a certain state of consciousness during the stages of death, because if one can maintain that level of awareness while dying, there is a moment where one can attain liberation very quickly, during that process; and if that can't happen, maintaining that awareness during death can at least lead to a better birth in one's next life.

Also, the comments posted in the link interpret the verse as meaning that Leonard would prefer the Love of his God, as opposed to the "nothingness" of Buddhism. But this "nothingness" concept is a misintepretation of the Buddhist teaching on what has been translated as "emptiness" or, more accurately, "emptiness & luminosity". Emptiness does not mean "nothing is there" - it refers to a state of mind that is empty of concept, because the solidification of concepts is what limits our perception of reality. Some teachers prefer to translate the Sanskrit & Tibetan terms as "openness" instead of "emptiness". Then there is the "luminosity" part, which would indicate "light" or "clarity". And the state of enlightenment, which is the aim of all schools of Buddhism, is said to be permeated with infinite Love - love in its purest form, love that needs no object, love for everything & nothing, love that has no beginning & no end, love that is all-pervasive.
I saw an interview where Leonard was asked about whom he addresses in Book of Mercy, & he said that he wouldn't claim to know who or what it is, but that he addresses the Source of Creation, whatever that may be (not his exact words, but that was the gist).

Again, in case my tone be misinterpreted, I am not defending anything here - I think Leonard is very interested in, & has love for, Buddhism; I think it is a strong influence in his work; I think if he had to choose, he would choose Judaism as his path & he sees Judaism as his religion. I only wrote this because I'm not sure that the comments in the poetry thread should be taken as the only way to interpret that verse (49) in Book of Mercy. And I felt compelled to comment on what was said about "where death is forgotten", nothingness, & "the new thing".
Cheers!!

[remote1]

Thanks B4real! I'm still here, just got lots of sick kids at home right now. Will be back soon! Bye now.
( And cheers, Holydove! )

[B4real]

Hi all,

Thanks for your thanks

I just find it absorbing to read all your views and others on these subjects. I don't know enough to comment myself on them but with all your varied approaches I am certainly gaining some knowledge.

remote1 I hope your sick household gets well soon.

[remote1]

You Know Who I Am:
When you have time, I'm curious as to how this line would refer to Christ?

Hi there!

I will try to answer this one quickly, before I get disrupted. Not an easy task for me as I am not at ease with the intricacies of various religions. We know however that even though Leonard is Jewish, he also occasionally incorporates some Christian imagery or references into his lyrics (e.g. Suzanne).

"You know who I am,
you've stared at the sun,
well I am the one who loves
changing from nothing to one."

I have always (but only in vague terms) imagined this as referring, first to the virgin birth, and then to the concept of real presence, "the One" being "the Anointed One". I have another vague recollection that looking at the Sun is equated in the Bible (possibly in the Old Testament) to seeing God, the Light, the Truth, and this is why it is impossible for human beings to stare at the sun.

So within this thread of interpretation,

"I need you to carry my children in
and I need you to kill a child."

alludes to God and the story of Abraham and Isaac, and

"I cannot follow you, my love,
you cannot follow me.
I am the distance you put between
all of the moments that we will be."

refers to the possibility of truly reaching God in Eternity only, but not in the world of space and time.

Finally,

"If you should ever track me down
I will surrender there
and I will leave with you one broken man
whom I will teach you to repair."

[Quick edit to add that there may be a comparison here to be made with the "broken" in Suzanne, and the "Forsaken, almost human":
"But he himself was broken
Long before the sky would open
Forsaken, almost human"]

The broken man to repair would refer to the crucified Christ, and then God's Holy teachings to find the way to salvation, a way to "repair" Christ.

Sorry I realise this is quite disjointed because I am rushing, but in short it seems to me that the song is superimposing two relationships, an "ordinary", perhaps impossible, one between two lovers, and a spiritual one between a human being and God. The outcome is a beautiful ordinary relationship made to feel and be imagined spiritually (not unlike Suzanne, I suppose).

And perfect timing because here comes a child!

All best and speak soon!

[TipperaryAnn]

Holydove,
Could you explain what differentiates Zen Buddhism from other forms of Buddhism? And is Mount Baldy Buddhism typical of Zen?
I have got interested in following this thread - Lili, I love your "treasure chest" image of Leonard's work, and Remote1 your "magpie" reference; I always think of Leonard as Shakespeare for the 21 st. century !
I find the discussion of "You know who I am" particularly interesting, as it has always puzzled me. Not many posting here, but I'm sure many are reading with interest as I am, thanks !

[holydove]

TIPPERARYANN, thank you for your post. Your question involves some very complicated issues - I can't give an authoritative comparison, because I know alot more about Tibetan Buddhism (which I have studied for about 11 years) than about Zen; I have studied Zen to some degree (& always loved it too), so I can try to give a brief/simple as possible explanation, comparing a few aspects of those two Buddhist paths:

Zen Buddhism de-emphasizes logic, studying of scriptures & texts, & verbal discussion of the teachings; while they do study some specific scriptures, the practice of sitting & walking meditation is emphasized as the most important aspect of the path. Tibetan Buddhism teaches that practice (meditation, etc.) & study of the texts/teachings (including discussion) are equally important.

Zen is a Mahayana path, meaning that the heart of it is comtemplations on "emptiness" (some teachers prefer the term "openness'), which includes cultivating compassion; Tibetan Buddhism also emphasizes Mahayana, but it also includes Vajarayana (also called "Big Mahayana"), which involves additional practices & also gets into the idea of "luminosity" within "emptiness".

Both paths teach various techniques (some are the same or similar for both) for meditation/contemplation, but Tibetan Buddhism involves alot of visualizations (esp. in the Vajrayana vehicle); Zen desn't get into visualizations but it does involve contemplations on Koans, which Tibetan Buddhism does not.

Both paths teach that all sentient beings have "Buddha nature", which means "awakened" or "enlightened" mind; the differences mainly have to do with what constitutes "enlightened mind", and even the various schools of thought within Tibetan Buddhism & within Zen, have different views on that. The main difference is about whether enlightened mind consists of just "emptiness" or of "emptiness & luminosity". The other differences have to do with what techniques are used to become aware of the enlightenment that already exist within us; and all the schools agree that Buddha nature/enlightened mind already exists within all sentient beings; it's "just" a matter of what route one will take to get to where one wants to go, & what exactly one will find there (lol)?!

But the ultimate aim of all the Buddhist paths is to attain awakened/enlightened mind (whatever that is, & even though we already have it). I have great respect for both Zen & Tibetan Buddhism, & I see them both as equally precious & valid paths; I just happened to be more drawn to Tibetan Buddhism, for whatever reason. There is a book about this comparison called: The Teacup and The Skullcup, by Chogyam Trungpa - he is the one who brought the Kagyu/Nyingma/Shambhala schools of Tibetan Buddhism to the West in the '60's, & he had a very close relationship with Suzuki Roshi, who was very instrumental in bringing Zen to the West, around the same time. I've read other books by Chogyam Trungpa (he is a great teacher), but I just recently found out about this one - I might just look for it myself. . .

REMOTE1, thank you for your explanation of You Know Who I Am in connection with the Christ interpretation - I like it alot, esp. the part about staring at the sun & the "broken man" - makes sense!

[TipperaryAnn]

Interesting, thanks Holydove. You make the complex understandable ! Having watched the Mount Baldy video I can see the strong emphasis there on meditation.
I am surprised that the diet is not vegetarian, since you say that every "Sentient being " has "Buddha Nature". Being a vegetarian myself, I used to assume all Buddhists were. Clearly not so, as Leonard prepared meat stews for Roshi, and apparently was vegetarian himself for only 3 years in the sixties. Would this be typical of Tibetan Buddhism too ? Some Roman Catholic monks, eg Cistercian , have a vegetarian diet, but I think this is regarded as a form of mortification, rather than a principled position !

[holydove]

There is also very strong emphasis on meditation practices in Tibetan Buddhism - it's not that there is less emphasis on meditation, it's that there is ALSO emphasis on study & discussion.

In terms of vegetarianism/eating meat - I think the best way to talk about that is to say that Tibetan Buddhism & Zen essentially de-emphasize "rules" in general; these systems are not really geared to telling one how to live one's daily life (unless you are actually living in a Buddhist center/monastery for a period of time or for a particular program - then there is a daily schedule, etc.). So there is the principle of non-aggression that is taught, & meant to be contemplated & integrated, but (at least in my experience), noone is going around telling people what they should eat or not eat. Then there is also the reality of daily life - historically, Tibetans have had to eat meat because not much grows from the ground there - it's too cold; if they didn't eat meat, they would be killing themselves, & that's definitely not recommended.

In my experience, practicing Buddhism is more about where one's mind is: for instance, if you are practicing vegetarianism, & while eating your vegetables, thinking about how you would like to kill the guy down the block - are you really practicing non-aggression? & from the other side, for instance, in Native American culture, when one kills an animal for food or clothing, the person would speak to the animal first, telling or asking permission, & the person would thank the animal afterwards - & this would be done with love in their hearts, as we know the love & connection that the Natives have always felt with Earth & all living creatures (in fact, they call animals "people with 4 legs"); so, when they kill out of necessity, for food or clothing, & with love & kindness in their hearts - is it aggression? I'd say that is less aggressive (if aggressive at all) than someone eating vegetables while thinking hateful or hurtful thoughts about another person.

Then there is also the view that the dissolution of a physical body does not mean that Buddha Nature is in any way harmed or destroyed - it's not possible to kill Buddha Nature - it's not something that is born, & it can't die; it is everywhere & nowhere; it has no beginning & no end; it is not bound by our concepts of time & space.

But basically, all I can tell you is that in the school of Tibetan Buddhism with which I have been involved, you can be Buddhist, take all the vows, etc., without having to be vegetrarian - that's just not an emphasis.

[TipperaryAnn]

Holydove,
I can see that where a religion originates would influence its customs, eg the example you give of Tibet, and the lack of alternative food in some times and cultures. Asking permission before slitting an animal's throat would not make it feel any better, though; it fact it could be seen as a selfish gesture, making the killer feel better about what he is doing but of no benefit to the victim !
I will be interested to see on this thread what other Leonard lyrics show Buddhist influence. "The lost mare" for instance; I have read about the lost ox on which it is based. Although when I listen to this lovely song what I mainly hear is an allegory for the loss of his own partner and children :
"They're gone like the smoke, they're gone like this song."

[holydove]

The only thing I would add about the "vegetarianism" issue is that I don't see plants as a less valuable form of life than animals; I know the killing of plants has been rationalized by the idea that you can still plant the seeds, but you are still killing that particular plant - it's like saying, if you save the eggs from a woman's uterus, & use them to make children, then it's okay to kill the woman; & I know that plants are not considered "sentient" beings, but honestly, I've never understood that concept - if Buddha Nature is everywhere, why would it not be in plants just because they can't move by themselves? Plus, I remember reading some years ago, that there was a scientific discovery that when a plant is pulled out of the ground, it emits a vibration that is very similar to a human "shriek" (that is actually alluded to in Beautiful Losers - perhaps there's our clue (or maybe partial explanation) as to why Leonard was vegetarian for only 3 years. And in terms of the killing thing, you kill life forms every time you flush the toilet, or clean a table or a floor. I was not trying to rationalize the killing of animals, but I don't think the killing of anything else is any better - unfortunately, unless we eat only fruits & nuts, there is no other way to survive (not that our survival is any more important than other life forms - it just seems, perhaps unfortunately again, to be a basic instinct). And in terms of the Native American relationships with Earth, animals, etc., I think they had, & have, a much stronger connection with nature than we are able to understand, (I actually think they might have been able to really communicate (telepathically) with plants & animals, & maybe some of them still can; there are also some tribes that have "legends" about Pleiadian origins), so I don't feel qualified to judge their behavior/customs one way or the other. Anyway, I think we have gotten way off track here, so I'll stop now. . .

[remote1]

I will be interested to see on this thread what other Leonard lyrics show Buddhist influence. "The lost mare" for instance; I have read about the lost ox on which it is based. Although when I listen to this lovely song what I mainly hear is an allegory for the loss of his own partner and children :
"They're gone like the smoke, they're gone like this song."

Hi TipperaryAnn

I shall attempt to offer a reading of “Ballad of the Absent Mare”, just for the fun of it, really. Please bear in mind that my knowledge of Buddhism is extremely limited, and this is only an experiment. I am hoping that Holydove will then provide us with a proper interpretation of the Buddhist aspects, when she finds the time.

I see the song as an allegory for one man’s journey from a Western (pun intended) frame of mind to a Buddhist perspective. While he was living within the principles of want, ownership (“when he was the lord”), and the concept of loss, all was wrong (even “the night is all wrong”). I understand the absent mare as possibly a symbol for the missing side of himself, with which he will later become inextricably bound, his spiritual side. Even though the mare is right near him, he cannot see her (“blind to her presence”) and is caught in negative thought processes (“injury”, “punishment”). Then, he experiences a moment of mindfulness, where his thoughts are not turned inwards, but where his senses are engaged in noticing the world around him, the bird songs, the warmth, the wind, the trees, the river (auditory, tactile, visual). Here she appears to him, now he has let go of his blinding inner frustrations by opening himself to the outside, thus liberating his mind. He is now able to experience a more spiritual side of himself, with which he becomes bound. The mare and the rider’s encounter is somewhat overwhelming, violent, powerful (he tries to tame her while she strives to escape). Concepts of space and time are now abandoned (“the high plateau / where there's nothing above / and there's nothing below”; “and there is no space / but there's left and right / and there is no time / but there's day and night”). Eventually the mare and the rider are merged as one, and at peace with each other (“No need for the whip / Ah, no need for the rein); this is a man who has found inner peace, who has internalised love in a way which cannot be undone, and cannot be understood by outsiders (stanza 11). For them it’s different, the Buddhist side of Leonard’s spirituality is telling him to let go of old concerns, which are a thing of the past for him (“But my darling says / "Leonard, just let it go by / That old silhouette / on the great western sky"). So he starts singing, and these concerns “move right along / and they're gone like the smoke”. He is watching them float away...

Of course, as is often the case with Leonard Cohen, two stories are superimposed and intertwined, one which is a tale of two (or more) lovers, sometimes highly sexually charged, as is the case here, and one which is a religious or spiritual narrative. That’s what Leonard does, isn’t it, fuse sexuality and spirituality. In this case, I think it is possible to argue that spirituality is neither Jewish nor Christian, but Buddhist.

Well, as I said, this is an experiment. Not too sure if it works...

[TipperaryAnn]

Your "experiment" sounds good to me, Remote1, It suits the lyrics very well. I like the idea of mindfulness for the "Then at home ..." verse, and the struggle between mare and rider. What about "Who snaps it asunder.. " though? Your version has a" happy ending", whereas the union is broken again "the very next night" : it seems to me to end with wistful longing rather than contentment, and he picks out a song to try to dispel his regrets with the power of music.
As you say, there are so many layers in Leonard's songs - that's why we love them, but it is fun trying to see them all !

[holydove]

Hi remote1 & tipperaryann, thank you for your wonderful posts. Just want to say I am still here, but I have a very intense back problem right now (another sports -related injury?!), & the pain/ medication has turned me into a zombie, so I am not able to focus or type very well at the moment. I will just say that in Zen there is a well-known series of "ox-herding" drawings (sometimes 6 , sometimes 10 pictures) that represent the stages of "taming the (wild) mind". There have been various commentaries on the mind-taming stages represented by the pictures. I agree that Leonard's song interwines these stages of taming the mind, with a story of two lovers. I will go into more detail about the ox-herding/mind-taming analogy when my back problem has (hopefully) somewhat subsided. Thank you for your patience, talk to you later. . .