Femme Fatal mistake

heatherly · Post by **heatherly** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:55 pm

Hello Moonlight,

I wanted to say that your response was what I had asked you for, and I appreciate your prompt reply. I apologize that I am not as timely... which does lead me to one thing I wanted to say. The Love Poem you posted I adored on a personal level. I am always late. And a total clutz. Just the other day, the day, in fact, that I received your response (I read it at the office after leaving for work in the morning) I first missed most of the coffee press while pouring in the hot water, instead dousing the stove. Then, while trying to open the car door with purse and coffee in hand, I dumped half of my coffee directly into my purse! Then, on top of that, I finally got a sip of said coffee, only to get a mouth full of grinds...

So you can see, I was grinning broadly when I finally arrived at work (late) and after opting for a safe bottle of juice, I read said Love Poem. I thought how nice it much be to have one feel so strongly about you as to have them not only adore you with all of your traits, and then to write it down in such a sweet verse. (The actually call me "grace" sometimes at work, due to the many instances of horribly exhibited co-ordination, and when someone else does something like spill their coffee, the say they "pulled a Heather"

)

And then I wonder what draws you to this particular poem. Are you perhaps a clutz yourself, and can appreciate the sentiment on that level as well as the technical? Again, I guess I find relatability what most draws me to a poem.

This has certainly been an interesting thread.

Regards, Heather

pantsdown · Post by **pantsdown** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:09 am

goodness, you describe such catastrophe in your life! The next thing I know you will tell me that you were nearly caught out by the unexpectedly early return of one lover just as you were servicing another?

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:57 pm

Actually, you remind me of me, Heather

.

~ Lizzy

Moonlight · Post by **Moonlight** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:57 pm

Dear Heatherly,

I can't say that I'm a klutz. I have pretty much normal locomotion. What I like about the poem is that the prosaic is turned into poetry. I like the way the man has "idealized" the woman he loves.

M

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:12 pm

Hi Moonlight ~

I would be so interested to see the results of your being given [in person; and handed in, in person; sans access to a computer or library/poetry books] a variety of 'obscure' poems by both successful and unknown poets.....some excellent, some good, some not so good, some bad....[some of all in both categories] and see how you rate them. I get the sense that you know what is 'good' poetry, according to things you've read that have pointed out [even analyzed why] 'good' poetry, by using specific examples [which may in turn be used by you as examples of 'good' poetry]. You've previously called yourself a "hack," yet claim to still have very high standards re: poetry, and I have to wonder how you would assess poems, on your own merits, not knowing who they were by, or their level of recognized/unrecognized excellence [or lack, thereof]. It's quite easy to know 'good,' when you see it used as an example of 'good,' or it's generally recognized as 'good.'

~ Lizzytysh

Moonlight · Post by **Moonlight** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:40 pm

Dear Lizzytysh,

I carefully read your latest post and after diagramming the sentences I think I have deciphered your meaning.
You appear to be accusing me of two things...unoriginality combined with "plagiarism".

I get the sense that you know what is 'good' poetry, according to things you've read that have pointed out [even analyzed why] 'good' poetry, by using specific examples [which may in turn be used by you as examples of 'good' poetry].

Well, I've had a pretty wretched education...so I don't think I can blame any of my remarks on some unsuspecting and innocent essayist or even an underpaid high school English teacher. I can honestly say the two examples I gave in this thread were never "pointed out" to me as examples of "good" poetry. (The only essay I ever read on criticism was Coleridge and he was long dead before these poems were written).

But, Lizzytysh, it isn't wrong for someone (anyone...not just me) to use knowledge or experience gained in the past to make reasoned judgments regarding the "new." Why shouldn't a person be able to use Coleridge or Johnson or Matthew Arnold to get a handle on what poetry should or shouldn't be? This idea that a person has to be a blank slate unaffected by any "prejudicial" ideas or influences is nonsense.

You've previously called yourself a "hack," yet claim to still have very high standards re: poetry,

Even a hack can recognize a thoroughbred race horse when he sees one...mainly by the way the thoroughbred runs.

and I have to wonder how you would assess poems, on your own merits,

I though that was what I was doing...and that was your whole problem with me...I was doing it on my "own merits."

not knowing who they were by, or their level of recognized/unrecognized excellence [or lack, thereof]. It's quite easy to know 'good,' when you see it used as an example of 'good,' or it's generally recognized as 'good.'

Ah! Now I get it...I can only recognize "good poetry" if it has already been annointed as such by the powers that be. Wrong.

But my favorite sentence is your first one.

I would be so interested to see the results of your being given [in person; and handed in, in person; sans access to a computer or library/poetry books] a variety of 'obscure' poems by both successful and unknown poets.....some excellent, some good, some not so good, some bad....[some of all in both categories] and see how you rate them.

You know...I might be coming to New York in June. But I have this terrible feeling that you will pepper me with pages and pages of obscure poems and I will have to spend all week-end analyzing and rating them. You will craftily include a few of LC's lesser known efforts...I (not recognizing their genius) will write snide and cutting remarks about them...and then at the Open Mic you will expose me as the fraud and imposter that I so obviously am.

Really, it's quite tempting.

M

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:51 pm

Shall we say I have things of greater interest to do at the Event than be concerned with your 'analysis' of poetry? I'm glad you saw/put the phrase in context of the sentence that gave it its full meaning. On your own merits, in that context, had to do with being left to your own devices, given a wide variety of poems, as already described. Nothing at all wrong with educating yourself. However, when it comes to the merits of various types and kinds of poetry, you seem to me to climb an ivory tower that isn't yours to climb. I would still be interested to see the results of such an exercise. Yes, of course, I would include many of Leonard's poems. Poetic justice 't'would be. Is it worth any of my time? Well, if I see you at the Event, you'll see for yourself.

So you read and read and read, and finally came up with two [for example] legitimate 'poems'? Why did you travel so far, when there are so many of Leonard's ready and available for citing right here? They do pass your acid test, right? Have you considered either becoming a paid, poetry critic, or investing in race horses? [In addition to your day job, of course.]

Moonlight · Post by **Moonlight** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:12 pm

Dear Lizzytysh,

Actually, I have two rather menial day jobs...neither of them in that ivory tower that you have forbidden me to climb.

M

Umm...why would it be poetic justice to include many of Leonard's poems in the Event's Poetry Quiz?

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:29 am

The poetic justice would not come with their inclusion, but the results of their inclusion. Unfortunately, as regards the ivory tower, no day nor night job can prevent such an ascent.