I was astonished at the content of Makera's posting about the extent to which Americans are unable to take on board, the concepts and views of people who hold different ideas to the ones which they hold.
It helped me to understand, that many months ago when I and several other contributers were struggling to raise pertinent issues about the impending war on Iraq, we were meeting screens full of vitriol, because we had the nerve to even question the authenticity of the justifications for going to war. I stood in the centre of my city with my placard and demanded to be told the whole truth about why young men and women were being sent to their deaths in a war for which there was as yet no HARD evidence. I am not revisiting all those arguments again in this posting. They are now history and the jury is still out. That issue is not my concern here and now. So don't go blathering on about it again in any reply to this piece.
What does concern me is that there is an obvious chasm between some of the contributers. I am able to divorce myself from personal feelings in pursuit of a carefully considered argument. I recently argued for both sides in a discussion about creating a 'spiritual' section on the board. I enjoy sensible, well thought out debate and I know there are several people out there who are like minded and who get as much pleasure as I.
On several occasions I have brought your attention to matters broadcast by BBC Radio 4. The reporting on Coca Cola in Kerala for instance. I was treated to several outbursts of anti-american posturing because certain contributers took the view that I was attacking America and its flag. It wasn't until I guided you to the reports published by the UN and the WHO that the vitriolic attacks ceased. (Without a word of apology for calling me a trouble maker, when it was patently obvious, that the BBC were only following up reports from the UN, WHO and America's own TV News Stations)
Certain people left the playing field with their bats and balls and didn't even have the grace to admit they were attacking the messenger. It is that attitude which I find difficult to understand.
What puzzles me is why the BBC, UN, WHO, Fox News and the likes of NPR should be attacked for presenting facts [FACTS] in such a way that the news they present to us is ignored whilst the people who bring their news are called NAMES.
I am not a scientist, professor, politician, military analyst, bio-chemist, or anything like such well educated people. When learned people are asked questions and they give answers which are not popular, I do not attack them for their personal views, but I question the validity of the facts which they present to us for scrutiny.
I question the FACTS. It is this very simple factor, which I am having difficulty in coming to terms with, when I read Makera's posting. If the messengers keep getting attacked, pretty soon we'll have no access to information and knowledge, and we'll all be in the hands of the manipulators of information. Ever heard of '1984' and Aldous Huxley ?
If NPR is attacked for being 'left wing' how can the attacker claim that others are incapable of being open minded, after making a self-same attack ? I'm sorry Makera, but I cannot follow your argument. With the best will in the world, I can see you outline the reasons for some americans' difficulties with a fear of being 'disliked,' but you yourself called NPR names in a previous posting. I don't understand where you are coming from.
I repeat that the first two sentences of my original preamble declared my open-minded, singularly objective, approach to the problem from my own personal standpoint. I speak for myself. I'm a big boy now. Why are messengers attacked with such ferocity, was the gist of my question. Because they fear being disliked is the reply. I now understand how matters became so heated in previous discussions and I have learned from that answer. Some people cannot seperate the personal from the objective. But what I cannot understand is that the person who gave me this understanding had themself attacked the messenger only a short time before. I have never listend to NPR and I don't suppose most of you will have listened to BBC Radio 4, but I do know they are messengers for us all to use and explore as and when we wish.
The whole point of this present posting is to clarify my thoughts and views with regard to any misconceptions and supposed ambiguities, which some people may have about where I stand in relation to freedom of information.
Byron 'sends his regards.'
Muffins or War
Upon a subject of agreement/disagreement…
It seems to me style that one prefers conducting debates doesn’t depend too much on nationality. I can explain why I think so. There are a lot of people around me and all of them are my nationals. And in spite of this fact they are… quite different. Perhaps, there are some common features – I’m not going to deny their existence [however, I don’t affirm it, as well] - but they doesn’t obliterate all the differences. So each person has his/her own style to discuss. Someone takes everything too personally and reacts to the disagreement oversensitively; someone else tries to be more open to the others… There are various characters, various natures…
And a great deal depends on a way one chooses to express his/her disagreement. For example, if we’ll say to our opponent, “I think I understand you. And maybe I’d even agree with you… But there are these and those reasons that make me hold another opinion” - it will be one case. And if we’ll say, “Bosh! You’re an idiot!” – perhaps, s/he won’t be too happy to know that there are some other points of view in this world.
But, of course, all those heated arguments are so charmed sometimes…
…And I love muffins.
Helven
It seems to me style that one prefers conducting debates doesn’t depend too much on nationality. I can explain why I think so. There are a lot of people around me and all of them are my nationals. And in spite of this fact they are… quite different. Perhaps, there are some common features – I’m not going to deny their existence [however, I don’t affirm it, as well] - but they doesn’t obliterate all the differences. So each person has his/her own style to discuss. Someone takes everything too personally and reacts to the disagreement oversensitively; someone else tries to be more open to the others… There are various characters, various natures…
And a great deal depends on a way one chooses to express his/her disagreement. For example, if we’ll say to our opponent, “I think I understand you. And maybe I’d even agree with you… But there are these and those reasons that make me hold another opinion” - it will be one case. And if we’ll say, “Bosh! You’re an idiot!” – perhaps, s/he won’t be too happy to know that there are some other points of view in this world.
But, of course, all those heated arguments are so charmed sometimes…
…And I love muffins.
Helven
I've finally found myself! But that turned out to be a completely different person.
/contemporary saying/
/contemporary saying/
Hi Helven ~
Oh dear......I lost my response to you again, whilst trying to get to the emoticons
. Well, I'll have to work more on them later. The globe just would never stop turning, after I clicked on the arrow or the numbers.....the page of emoticons just wouldn't come up. They bring so much personality to [yours and, in the future, others'] postings. This site is going to end up so colourful, people may enjoy coming just to watch all the cartoon characters doing their thing 
~ forget what anyone might have to say 
.
I agree with what you say regarding not being able to generalize a nationality, as a whole, in terms of personality characteristics. There may be trends, but there are also exceptions. You have a very nice way of expressing your views. Very balanced and non-inflammatory.
Anyway, it appears that the fresh-cut oats that is associated with porridge is what we commonly call oatmeal here. Porridge isn't a term used anymore. Yet, it sounds like it may be the same [mmmmm] and the bowl that your emoticon is eating from appears to possibly hold some
. However, it could just as easily hold muffins . If so, may I please have one 
? Thanks .
Love,
Lizzy
Oh dear......I lost my response to you again, whilst trying to get to the emoticons
. Well, I'll have to work more on them later. The globe just would never stop turning, after I clicked on the arrow or the numbers.....the page of emoticons just wouldn't come up. They bring so much personality to [yours and, in the future, others'] postings. This site is going to end up so colourful, people may enjoy coming just to watch all the cartoon characters doing their thing ~ forget what anyone might have to say .I agree with what you say regarding not being able to generalize a nationality, as a whole, in terms of personality characteristics. There may be trends, but there are also exceptions. You have a very nice way of expressing your views. Very balanced and non-inflammatory.
Anyway, it appears that the fresh-cut oats that is associated with porridge is what we commonly call oatmeal here. Porridge isn't a term used anymore. Yet, it sounds like it may be the same [mmmmm] and the bowl that your emoticon is eating from appears to possibly hold some
. However, it could just as easily hold muffins . If so, may I please have one ? Thanks .Love,
Lizzy
Byron....there are certain issues that require sensitivity when you broach them. Because they involve people's emotions. How would you like it if people continually attacked your family? The situation is not so different. You attack someone's country, you attack their family. Some issues are best discussed in private amongst close friends rather than on a public forum. It doesnt help if you put a one line disclaimer and then proceed with 10 posts that attack US. If you do want to discuss these issues you need to do so with more sensitivity and in a more even-handed manner. I consider myself quite open-minded but I have to admit to a slight irritation at what I perceived as your continual attacks exclusively on US. As an example, I didnt find any posts by yourself re' Mr. Alastair Campbell and his antics....I am sure you know what I am talking about. I could find other examples.
Songster....no I didnt know about the book. I shall look it up on amazon. Thanks for the tip.
Makera, Lizzytysh...I really don't what the big deal about 2 lines is about.
Songster....no I didnt know about the book. I shall look it up on amazon. Thanks for the tip.
Makera, Lizzytysh...I really don't what the big deal about 2 lines is about.
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Dear 'quite open minded' are you of the opinion that The United Nations, The World Health Organization, The British Broadcasting Corporation, American Fox News, America's National Public Radio and several American contributers to this forum, are attacking your family?
Or is it just me?
I have not fabricated any information which has come onto the board. But I have pointed you in the direction of the International News Media, where every single item of information has been and remains in the public domain.
I take your point about Mr Campbell and agree with you that matters relating to my own country have been minor in comparison to American businesses. I was one of a group of people who expressed my 'discomfort' ( British understatement used once more after a lengthy vacation) with my country sending young men and women to their deaths in Iraq.
You are a very lucky person to be able to live in a country where you have 'Freedom of Information' laws. We have nothing like it here. What we do have is the most number of CCTV cameras per head of population in the world. We still live in a country which has hardly moved on from the time when Mrs Simpson was courted by our King. That relationship flourished for months and no ordinary people in the country knew about it, because 'the powers that be' decided that we should not be told. It is over 6 years since Princess Dianna was killed in a car crash in Paris. We have still not had a full, proper and legally compulsory Inquest into her death. Her butler has been seen on American TV being interviewed at length in recent weeks, but we have been kept in the dark over here until a couple of days before his book was published (Today is the day) Her butler was taken to court by 'the powers that be' for stealing items from her estate. His trial lasted a very long time. The day before he was due to go into the witness box to give evidence, Her Majesty The Queen suddenly remembered that he had told her all about the items, many months before. Just as suddenly, the case was dropped and he was cleared of any wrong doing. He has yet to receive an apology from anybody within the Royal Circle for the trauma that he and his family were put through. And remember, it was royal family retainers who pointed the finger at him.
He is now being attacked by the Royal Family for publishing his book. It contains nothing but the truth of his everyday life with his former employer. It seems that it is not only americans who fear the truth. He is being pilloried by most of the British press before any of the press have waited for the ordinary man and woman in the street over here, to buy and read the book. The press are whipping up a hate campaign against him, without anybody in the street as yet, reading his book.
The matters which I have raised in the forum in the past, have all come from what scholars call, 'primary sources' and I'm sure you know what that means and how its authenticity is paramount.
I have tried to bring your attention to FACTS which are readily available to you in America. Do you know how much of a privilege that is? It is only with thanks to the internet, that the vast majority of people in this country are able to find out what is going on in the world. Newspapers are owned and run by close friends of our Prime Minister. A lot of people believe that they know what is going on because they only know what the newspapers tell them. It is thanks to the rapid access to information that courses/abuses of power/underhand dealings etc., are able to be put into the public domain.
I have discovered a whole new world out there since I connected to the www. What is painfully apparent is that the people in America have had access to all of this information, which was denied to the people in my country, and some of them have taken this basic freedom for granted and still do.
We have problems over here with Institutional Racism in our Police Forces. The British National Party have gained half a dozen seats in several Local Authorities where there is a large Asian population. Racial hatred is being used in Nazi style propoganda to whip up votes in order to get extreme right wing people into positions of power. This is not a land of pretty villages, cricket matches, cucumber sandwiches and genteel manners. It is a country where most women think twice before going out after dark in our inner city areas. There are women only buses provided for public transport. The figures for unemployed young men show that there is a massive imbalance against coloured men.
Primary Sources.
Public Domain.
Freedom Of Information.
Unfettered Access to Global Information.
Americans have had each of these for years, but seem to have lost the objectivity to avail themselves of their precious worth.
If you want to attack my country I will not take it as an attack on me or my family. You don't know my family and you know nothing about my family. But you do have the means to know about my country. I am able to distinguish the differences between them. You might as well attack me for being white. What we see is the surface. What we need to understand is what can be found underneath the surface. For years you have had access to so much information which was denied my people.
Yes Kush, I can raise issues about my own country, but it is only now, that we over here, are able to find things out for ourselves.
I'll probably be told I'm being melodramatic by people who have not given these matters as much thought as I have. The more that people search for the truth, the more they discover how much they didn't know. We may think that we know just about all there is to know. Anybody believing that is living in a fool's paradise. Facts are only now coming to light about the true state of my country's involvement in sexual attacks by British troops on native village women in a country in Africa where the troops had been sent for decades for training. It may all be lies and it may all be true, but there has been a cover up for years, which is at last being blown apart.
Kush, this is only a very quick and simple response to the points you have raised. There is much more we could discuss. If you want to raise any issues I'll be happy to air them on the board in the public domain. The people over here are fed up of having issues swept under the carpet.
Count your blessings.
Byron 'sends his regards.'
Or is it just me?
I have not fabricated any information which has come onto the board. But I have pointed you in the direction of the International News Media, where every single item of information has been and remains in the public domain.
I take your point about Mr Campbell and agree with you that matters relating to my own country have been minor in comparison to American businesses. I was one of a group of people who expressed my 'discomfort' ( British understatement used once more after a lengthy vacation) with my country sending young men and women to their deaths in Iraq.
You are a very lucky person to be able to live in a country where you have 'Freedom of Information' laws. We have nothing like it here. What we do have is the most number of CCTV cameras per head of population in the world. We still live in a country which has hardly moved on from the time when Mrs Simpson was courted by our King. That relationship flourished for months and no ordinary people in the country knew about it, because 'the powers that be' decided that we should not be told. It is over 6 years since Princess Dianna was killed in a car crash in Paris. We have still not had a full, proper and legally compulsory Inquest into her death. Her butler has been seen on American TV being interviewed at length in recent weeks, but we have been kept in the dark over here until a couple of days before his book was published (Today is the day) Her butler was taken to court by 'the powers that be' for stealing items from her estate. His trial lasted a very long time. The day before he was due to go into the witness box to give evidence, Her Majesty The Queen suddenly remembered that he had told her all about the items, many months before. Just as suddenly, the case was dropped and he was cleared of any wrong doing. He has yet to receive an apology from anybody within the Royal Circle for the trauma that he and his family were put through. And remember, it was royal family retainers who pointed the finger at him.
He is now being attacked by the Royal Family for publishing his book. It contains nothing but the truth of his everyday life with his former employer. It seems that it is not only americans who fear the truth. He is being pilloried by most of the British press before any of the press have waited for the ordinary man and woman in the street over here, to buy and read the book. The press are whipping up a hate campaign against him, without anybody in the street as yet, reading his book.
The matters which I have raised in the forum in the past, have all come from what scholars call, 'primary sources' and I'm sure you know what that means and how its authenticity is paramount.
I have tried to bring your attention to FACTS which are readily available to you in America. Do you know how much of a privilege that is? It is only with thanks to the internet, that the vast majority of people in this country are able to find out what is going on in the world. Newspapers are owned and run by close friends of our Prime Minister. A lot of people believe that they know what is going on because they only know what the newspapers tell them. It is thanks to the rapid access to information that courses/abuses of power/underhand dealings etc., are able to be put into the public domain.
I have discovered a whole new world out there since I connected to the www. What is painfully apparent is that the people in America have had access to all of this information, which was denied to the people in my country, and some of them have taken this basic freedom for granted and still do.
We have problems over here with Institutional Racism in our Police Forces. The British National Party have gained half a dozen seats in several Local Authorities where there is a large Asian population. Racial hatred is being used in Nazi style propoganda to whip up votes in order to get extreme right wing people into positions of power. This is not a land of pretty villages, cricket matches, cucumber sandwiches and genteel manners. It is a country where most women think twice before going out after dark in our inner city areas. There are women only buses provided for public transport. The figures for unemployed young men show that there is a massive imbalance against coloured men.
Primary Sources.
Public Domain.
Freedom Of Information.
Unfettered Access to Global Information.
Americans have had each of these for years, but seem to have lost the objectivity to avail themselves of their precious worth.
If you want to attack my country I will not take it as an attack on me or my family. You don't know my family and you know nothing about my family. But you do have the means to know about my country. I am able to distinguish the differences between them. You might as well attack me for being white. What we see is the surface. What we need to understand is what can be found underneath the surface. For years you have had access to so much information which was denied my people.
Yes Kush, I can raise issues about my own country, but it is only now, that we over here, are able to find things out for ourselves.
I'll probably be told I'm being melodramatic by people who have not given these matters as much thought as I have. The more that people search for the truth, the more they discover how much they didn't know. We may think that we know just about all there is to know. Anybody believing that is living in a fool's paradise. Facts are only now coming to light about the true state of my country's involvement in sexual attacks by British troops on native village women in a country in Africa where the troops had been sent for decades for training. It may all be lies and it may all be true, but there has been a cover up for years, which is at last being blown apart.
Kush, this is only a very quick and simple response to the points you have raised. There is much more we could discuss. If you want to raise any issues I'll be happy to air them on the board in the public domain. The people over here are fed up of having issues swept under the carpet.
Count your blessings.
Byron 'sends his regards.'
Last edited by Byron on Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
Yes there are pockets of racism in this country. There is also positive racism which exacerbates an indigenous population.
The reason the right wing parties are flourishing in this country is because the Government seems hopeless at dealing with the asylum seeker problem. If you can say hand on heart that your jaw doesn't drop at some of the preferential treatment metered out to people who have never contributed a bean to this country and the gross maltreatment of people who have put their lives on the line, you are a better man than I.
I consider this country to be the one of the most tolerant in the world. I hope the BNP never ever sees light of day in the government but by the same token I would like to see the Nation of Islam and similar organisations rebuked for the inflamatory way they muster support. And if anyone has ever read "The Voice" (a paper produced by black people for black people) you can see racism at its most potent. Aside from the fact if it was a paper produced by white people for white people it would have been closed down. Racism is not a one way street even if it is portrayed as such and should not be confused with the resentment and helplessness a lot of people feel over the destruction of the British culture over our Government need to bend over backwards to help all comers to the detriment of the people whose country this is.
I love the multi cultural aspect of Britain. But I am angry that the flag of St George has been hijacked by the BNP and is now considered racist. If immigrants come to this country they should take on the mantle of the British not the other way round we are deterred from having any pride in our country or culture and now the Government wants to give our sovereignty over to Germany!!! We have large pockets of the country where English is a second language and parts of the country are faring less well than third world countries.
I do get very angry at the implication that we are inherently racist as I believe that to be far from the truth.
And as for Paul Burrell I consider him to be the scum of the earth. I never understood the nations love affair with Princess Diana or the torrent of grief when she died. I am sick to the back teeth of hearing about her. Paul Burrell should just crawl back under the stone he came from. He is not interested in making the truth known he is interested in making the money flow. Princess Diana lived and died she should be allowed to rest in peace now.
The reason the right wing parties are flourishing in this country is because the Government seems hopeless at dealing with the asylum seeker problem. If you can say hand on heart that your jaw doesn't drop at some of the preferential treatment metered out to people who have never contributed a bean to this country and the gross maltreatment of people who have put their lives on the line, you are a better man than I.
I consider this country to be the one of the most tolerant in the world. I hope the BNP never ever sees light of day in the government but by the same token I would like to see the Nation of Islam and similar organisations rebuked for the inflamatory way they muster support. And if anyone has ever read "The Voice" (a paper produced by black people for black people) you can see racism at its most potent. Aside from the fact if it was a paper produced by white people for white people it would have been closed down. Racism is not a one way street even if it is portrayed as such and should not be confused with the resentment and helplessness a lot of people feel over the destruction of the British culture over our Government need to bend over backwards to help all comers to the detriment of the people whose country this is.
I love the multi cultural aspect of Britain. But I am angry that the flag of St George has been hijacked by the BNP and is now considered racist. If immigrants come to this country they should take on the mantle of the British not the other way round we are deterred from having any pride in our country or culture and now the Government wants to give our sovereignty over to Germany!!! We have large pockets of the country where English is a second language and parts of the country are faring less well than third world countries.
I do get very angry at the implication that we are inherently racist as I believe that to be far from the truth.
And as for Paul Burrell I consider him to be the scum of the earth. I never understood the nations love affair with Princess Diana or the torrent of grief when she died. I am sick to the back teeth of hearing about her. Paul Burrell should just crawl back under the stone he came from. He is not interested in making the truth known he is interested in making the money flow. Princess Diana lived and died she should be allowed to rest in peace now.
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Paula. I am grateful for your contribution to this current aspect in the thread. Without any wish to sound patronising, I have to say that your contribution is a bloody good example of the type of response which is lacking in many other contributers. You have not taken any of the points raised in previous postings as any form or type of personal attack on you or your family. I wholeheartedly respect your views and I look forward to many more pieces of thoroughly well thought out argument from you. We may differ on certain views but we certainly don't start throwing nasty and labelous (not libelous) words at one another.
The racial issues you have touched on are valid points, which I fully understand. Racism is not a one way street. In fact on our local news at lunchtime today, the senior police officer who represents coloured police officers in the Greater Manchester Police Force has just resigned his post in that group, because it appears that he may have been using the 'race card' to further his career. It is all up in the air at the moment and so I can give no further information.
I find it refreshing to have someone disagree with some of my points, who addresses the facts and not the personality of the writer. Thank you.
Byron 'sends his regards.'
The racial issues you have touched on are valid points, which I fully understand. Racism is not a one way street. In fact on our local news at lunchtime today, the senior police officer who represents coloured police officers in the Greater Manchester Police Force has just resigned his post in that group, because it appears that he may have been using the 'race card' to further his career. It is all up in the air at the moment and so I can give no further information.
I find it refreshing to have someone disagree with some of my points, who addresses the facts and not the personality of the writer. Thank you.
Byron 'sends his regards.'
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
With regard to Paul Burrell, I have my own personal views on the monarchy, which are not relevant here.
I was taking issue with the fact that whether you like him or loathe him, he was arrested, interrogated, charged, bailed, and then had to undergo the full publicity of a very public trial, which was brought about by monarchist members, and all for a crime which he did not commit. And now, whether you like him or not, (and I'm not saying if I do or I don't ) he has not had an apology from anybody. My complaint is with the way a British citizen was treated by 'the powers that be' or as they are sometimes called, 'the grey suits.' The personalities involved are not important, but the way certain powers were brought to bare is what I find uncomfortable. Think back a few years and look at what happened to John Stalker. Like him or loathe him, he was treated appallingly by the authorities. He was told to do a job and when he started to dig a little bit too deep for comfort, he and his friends and family were subjected to a disgusting smear campaign. He was finding cupboards full of political skeletons and was too professional a policeman to back-pedal. It took years for him to clear his name and to prove that he'd been set up by his bosses.
Too many people only read the headlines and don't go looking deeper into the stories behind the headlines. Just ask yourselves a simple question. Who owns the newspapers and which political party do they support? We have the 'Red Tops' in this country, which are newspapers that only seem to be able to give the news in massive banner headlines. They want our money and they entice us in with shock headlines.
Tie all of that in with who owns the TV stations and a picture (pun intended) starts to emerge of a few powerful and rich men ( please note the lack of ladies here ) who can control the issues in the world, which may or may not affect us. A few carefully chosen words can completely alter our perception of an item of news.
Byron 'sends his regards.'
I was taking issue with the fact that whether you like him or loathe him, he was arrested, interrogated, charged, bailed, and then had to undergo the full publicity of a very public trial, which was brought about by monarchist members, and all for a crime which he did not commit. And now, whether you like him or not, (and I'm not saying if I do or I don't
) he has not had an apology from anybody. My complaint is with the way a British citizen was treated by 'the powers that be' or as they are sometimes called, 'the grey suits.' The personalities involved are not important, but the way certain powers were brought to bare is what I find uncomfortable. Think back a few years and look at what happened to John Stalker. Like him or loathe him, he was treated appallingly by the authorities. He was told to do a job and when he started to dig a little bit too deep for comfort, he and his friends and family were subjected to a disgusting smear campaign. He was finding cupboards full of political skeletons and was too professional a policeman to back-pedal. It took years for him to clear his name and to prove that he'd been set up by his bosses.Too many people only read the headlines and don't go looking deeper into the stories behind the headlines. Just ask yourselves a simple question. Who owns the newspapers and which political party do they support? We have the 'Red Tops' in this country, which are newspapers that only seem to be able to give the news in massive banner headlines. They want our money and they entice us in with shock headlines.
Tie all of that in with who owns the TV stations and a picture (pun intended) starts to emerge of a few powerful and rich men ( please note the lack of ladies here ) who can control the issues in the world, which may or may not affect us. A few carefully chosen words can completely alter our perception of an item of news.
Byron 'sends his regards.'
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
I don't usually visit this section, being of a delicate and sensitive nature, but I have to say that poetry seems to have changed somewhat since I last read a poem. I cannot get any of the above lines in recent contributions to rhyme or scan no matter how hard I look at them. Is political poetry meant to be like this?
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George Gordon
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:21 am
- Location: Scotland, Greece
Byron,
You are so transparent. Kush is correct. Your modus operandi is to damn the Americans with faint praise before unloading your vitriol. And then when the Americans on this Forum object you react with indignant (and self-righteous) surprise. Always expressing shock about being "misunderstood" by the stupid, naive, Americans. You are about as subtle as a five-year-old.
And all this clap-trap about the U.K. you have now posted. You have done this only to cover your tail. So that in the future you will be able to say that you are an equal-opportunity hater.
As for the threads on the Iraq War, I suggest you go back and re-read some of them. You more or less started that whole fight. And at one point you picked up your ball and bat and left the playing field.
.
You are so transparent. Kush is correct. Your modus operandi is to damn the Americans with faint praise before unloading your vitriol. And then when the Americans on this Forum object you react with indignant (and self-righteous) surprise. Always expressing shock about being "misunderstood" by the stupid, naive, Americans. You are about as subtle as a five-year-old.
And all this clap-trap about the U.K. you have now posted. You have done this only to cover your tail. So that in the future you will be able to say that you are an equal-opportunity hater.
As for the threads on the Iraq War, I suggest you go back and re-read some of them. You more or less started that whole fight. And at one point you picked up your ball and bat and left the playing field.
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Exactly my friend. I don't know your family or anything about your family.You don't know my family and you know nothing about my family.
I am an outsider.
As far as I can tell from your photo on the gallery you are not Asian. And obviously not American. You are an outsider. We are over 10 million of us here in America. (I usually avoid the race card but I'll use it here). From your posts I can tell your understanding of the various complexities and dynamics of Asian problems (whether it be Coca-cola in Kerala or sweatshop in China) is a little superficial. You tend to see most things in black and white, corporate america vs. third world.
That coming revolution some of you are dreaming of (from whence shall spring the perfect society) ain't gonna happen. Forget it. Go home.
Anyway, thanks for your concern but we're working on the various Asian problems. We'll figure it out. You can relax.
...If I became deaf, dumb and blind becoz' I pitied all mankind
And it broke my heart in two to make things right.
(with apologies to Jacques Brel)
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Kush. I now have some understanding of your viewpoint. Am I correct in thinking that you are proud of the efforts that your company is making with regard to helping the developing world? Bye the way, we over here do not like the term 'third world' as it carries connotations of an enforced class system imposed on people who are striving to improve themselves.
I see that you are but one of a large minority of what you call 'outsiders' in America. Yes, I too am an outsider when it comes to America. I am in total agreement with you on that point.
My highlighting of concerns discussed in international agencies (UN, WHO, International Media, Investigative Journalism) is to bring a view of the 'outside' world to people in the forum who have probably never left their own country.
I have a strong wish to support the underdogs against exploitation and plead for a fair deal for those who cannot plead on their own behalf. You can obviously stand on your own two feet and make a case for your own situation, which I now understand from your last posting.
There are some people who come into his world with advantages over others. Societies have always been that way. My point is that I would feel that I was not helping those who have no voice if I stayed silent. You wrote earlier that you work hard and enjoy the fruits of your labours. I have no problem understanding that and as long as you have your good health, I hope you continue to enjoy your life.
I cannot walk a mile in your shoes but I can say that I travelled extensively. You may wish to read my report that I wrote earlier this year about the horrific scenes we saw with our own eyes in Laos. I don't do 'beach holidays' but I do try to get well off the beaten track when I take my vacations. Over recent years, my wife and I have travelled jointly and seperately through India, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. We have seen 'how the other half lives.'
I had no intention in 'teaching my grandmother to suck eggs' as we say here. Your view of the world has to be considerably different to mine. Your experiences are things which I could never hope to empathise with. I say empathise because I do not want anybody to mix it up with 'sympathise' which is a totally different matter all together. However I believe that we are both pushing at the same door and I get the feeling from you that you want to push at that door in your own way and in your own time. I fully respect you for that and I take a step back with a degree of humility.
I am totally comfortable with your view that corporations do good in this world. However, you must allow for the fact that not all people and companies are generous to a fault. Companies exist on the profits they make. They grow on the increase in profits that they make. Bill Gates is following a long line of philanthropists, some of whom spent fortunes in my country in the 19th century building completely new towns with schools and hospitals for their workers. There is a town near my city which was designed and built by the best architects of their day for hundreds of factory workers and their families. I can think of another one in Scotland. Men with vision are rare. Even more rare are such men with the money and drive to realise that vision. So yes Kush, I hear what you say.
You have to understand that I am simply pointing people towards matters of concern which they might not normally see. It is not me that is attacking anyone. I simply show people where to look at the facts. Unfortunately, there are non so blind as those who don't want to see. I do not include you in that group, as you are more aware than most of the people in this forum, of the inequalities which occur in this world.
You mention the 'race card.' I am sorry that you had to, and I apologise for being the cause of you using it.
I will say to you and whoever else is reading this posting, that although I have not suffered from racial discrimination, I have been at the very nasty receiving end of religious hatred, bigotry, and malice such as you will have seen on your televisions in Northern Ireland. I have a very strong affinity with the underdog and it is my life experiences which prompt me to write as I do in this forum, where I have tried my best to keep to an objective standpoint. We all want to improve our world, but we go about it in different ways.
I have trodden on your toes and I apologise. You are tackling life in your own way. I shall continue to tackle life in my way. I hate injustice, but not as much as the attempts to hide injustices which are only uncovered by people far braver and more intelligent than I.
Byron 'sends his regards.'
I see that you are but one of a large minority of what you call 'outsiders' in America. Yes, I too am an outsider when it comes to America. I am in total agreement with you on that point.
My highlighting of concerns discussed in international agencies (UN, WHO, International Media, Investigative Journalism) is to bring a view of the 'outside' world to people in the forum who have probably never left their own country.
I have a strong wish to support the underdogs against exploitation and plead for a fair deal for those who cannot plead on their own behalf. You can obviously stand on your own two feet and make a case for your own situation, which I now understand from your last posting.
There are some people who come into his world with advantages over others. Societies have always been that way. My point is that I would feel that I was not helping those who have no voice if I stayed silent. You wrote earlier that you work hard and enjoy the fruits of your labours. I have no problem understanding that and as long as you have your good health, I hope you continue to enjoy your life.
I cannot walk a mile in your shoes but I can say that I travelled extensively. You may wish to read my report that I wrote earlier this year about the horrific scenes we saw with our own eyes in Laos. I don't do 'beach holidays' but I do try to get well off the beaten track when I take my vacations. Over recent years, my wife and I have travelled jointly and seperately through India, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. We have seen 'how the other half lives.'
I had no intention in 'teaching my grandmother to suck eggs' as we say here. Your view of the world has to be considerably different to mine. Your experiences are things which I could never hope to empathise with. I say empathise because I do not want anybody to mix it up with 'sympathise' which is a totally different matter all together. However I believe that we are both pushing at the same door and I get the feeling from you that you want to push at that door in your own way and in your own time. I fully respect you for that and I take a step back with a degree of humility.
I am totally comfortable with your view that corporations do good in this world. However, you must allow for the fact that not all people and companies are generous to a fault. Companies exist on the profits they make. They grow on the increase in profits that they make. Bill Gates is following a long line of philanthropists, some of whom spent fortunes in my country in the 19th century building completely new towns with schools and hospitals for their workers. There is a town near my city which was designed and built by the best architects of their day for hundreds of factory workers and their families. I can think of another one in Scotland. Men with vision are rare. Even more rare are such men with the money and drive to realise that vision. So yes Kush, I hear what you say.
You have to understand that I am simply pointing people towards matters of concern which they might not normally see. It is not me that is attacking anyone. I simply show people where to look at the facts. Unfortunately, there are non so blind as those who don't want to see. I do not include you in that group, as you are more aware than most of the people in this forum, of the inequalities which occur in this world.
You mention the 'race card.' I am sorry that you had to, and I apologise for being the cause of you using it.
I will say to you and whoever else is reading this posting, that although I have not suffered from racial discrimination, I have been at the very nasty receiving end of religious hatred, bigotry, and malice such as you will have seen on your televisions in Northern Ireland. I have a very strong affinity with the underdog and it is my life experiences which prompt me to write as I do in this forum, where I have tried my best to keep to an objective standpoint. We all want to improve our world, but we go about it in different ways.
I have trodden on your toes and I apologise. You are tackling life in your own way. I shall continue to tackle life in my way. I hate injustice, but not as much as the attempts to hide injustices which are only uncovered by people far braver and more intelligent than I.
Byron 'sends his regards.'
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.