Problem solved!

[babz]

Brava, Gennelle,
A stunning poem! And the Emily 'wisdom running high' reminds me of the way my daughter slides the Goddess song in between two of her rockin' get-down sexy blues tunes. It often happens that people approach her after a performance to ask about it. ( She sings the R of the G starting in a very serious, subdued voice, gradually building in intensity, and it's interesting to watch the crowd quiet down and be drawn in.) Although she usually does only her original songs, she WILL throw in Bird on A Wire and Passing Through, for me, on occasion.

Lizzy, The Crone! Do you have the book with the dust jacket on it? and the face of a beautiful aging woman (unidentified, or at least I can't find an attribution) whose etched, facial lines evoke the serenity of an ancient Buddha wrought in stone, and Lady Midnight. I've misplaced my Baubo book! If I recall, she made Demeter laugh, by lifting her (Baubo's) skirt... and encouraging her to try to negotiate Persephone's release. Imagine, the first flasher was a woman !

I'm reading The Goddess in the Gospels by Margaret Starbird (1998) now. Subtitled Reclaiming the Sacred Feminine. This is a memoir of her own spiritual quest (not without personal crisis for a daughter of the Roman Catholic Church.) She is the author of The Woman with the Alabaster Jar about Mary Magdalene, and the hieros gamous... the Sacred Marriage of male and female.

From the time I first encountered Leonard (poetry reading at SUNY at Buffalo in ?'67, 68? he has been an intimate companion on my own spiritual journey. Therefore everything written in this thread is now deemed canonical Leonard Cohen and thus ON TOPIC!

Love
Barbara

[Byron]

Surely it is self evident that when a Great woman achieves her greatness, the answer to Helven and Elizabeth's response is that there is no one in front OR behind her. Because she is Beside Herself with Joy. Therefore, we can safely say that the answer to our search is that we must find Joy!!
I think this might be another piece of conundrumatics to engage our remaining grey cells
Spread the word amongst all the World. Find a woman called Joy. But if she cannot be found, be happy to discover her essence
Oh, and bye the way, Albert says "Hello."
Byron 'sends his regards.'

[lizzytysh]

Dear Barbara ~

Yes , that's the one! It is The Crone, and is by Barbara G. Walker. The colouring of the cover is a greyish-blue, but definitely more blue. A "dust-jacket," per se, no. It's a soft-cover book. I was at the used-book store and spotted it in the .50 and $1.00 bin. I was drawn to it because of that incredibly aged and peaceful face. The only thing I'm finding overwhelming about it is the incredible number of goddesses listed on each page. It would really be helpful if there were some sort of timeline graph [also depicting parts of the world] included, so I could get a better sense of all that. One would never imagine there having been so many goddesses summarily dispensed with and disposed of, in whatever fashion all that occurred.

I was drawn to the title because of my only fairly recent understanding of the term and being far more, and with far greater import, than just "old woman" [in a derisive way that some might have you believe]. There is sorta-locally [25 miles] a monthly, Sunday women's brunch held at what is called Crones' Cradle Conserve. They bill themselves as "Ecological Preserve/Feminist Retreat Center/Organic Farm" and have a huge variety of events [including "Croning"s; spiritual; health; etc.] that occur on their acreage and in their few, lovely, hand-constructed buildings. I attend the brunches, each of which has its own theme, wherein a huge amount of woman-to-woman sharing [stories, materials, books, art, etc.] occurs in a safe atmosphere.

The mix at any given brunch is probably 2/3 gay women and 1/3 straight [me in the latter group]. I have found that [as a "rule"] I admire "many" gay women, as it seems in a number of ways, they tend to be more self-actualized than "many" straight women, who have "tended" to define themselves in terms of [or "in the shadow of"] a man/men, and lived within those parameters in terms of self-development. On the other hand, "typically" a gay woman has had to draw on a different type of personal strength right from the beginning, so as to take a stand for herself within society, in general. Then, she also clearly goes in another direction [other than in terms of ~ or "in the shadow of" ~ a man/men], for self-definition. These comments are very "risky" and not intended to be male-bashing in nature. They are but generalities that I have observed, and come with many qualifying quotation marks. There are certainly exceptions, and I have also noted there to be some pretty abusive relationships within the female, gay community, where one partner appears to be just as oppressed/abused as she likely would have been had she been in a heterosexual relationship.

At any rate, the brunches [which I started attending a couple years ago] were my introduction to the term "Crone," and the goddess religion[s], I have heard referred to intermittently in various way in a number of arenas. I had NO idea what that was all about until I started reading this book, and am truly stunned!!!

I imagined your daughter singing "Return of the Goddess" in all the various, legitimate "voices" accorded to us as women; from the child, to the sweet virginal, to the womanly and powerful, to the destructive, to the older and frail [even]. In that we are rightfully entitled to the full range of empowerment, I was trying to imagine how your daughter chose to render it in your song.

The first flasher as a woman ~ her sexuality revealed ~ that's great ! [Who'd uh thunk? ] Perhaps Amazon could help you find another copy of your Baubo book?

Thanks for your sweet answer .

Love, Elizabeth

[Makera]

Hi Byron~

What sagacity and wit from a true 'Gentleman and Scholar'! Brilliantly put, and eminently quotable.

Greetings to all our 'Siblings of Mercy'~

Firstly, I'd like to clarify to any just 'looking' in -- so there are no misunderstandings (or "misunderestimations"-- love that) -- as to what we are celebrating here:-
We are calling up/on the Rising of the Feminine in the hearts of All; a return to Balance and Wholeness. We are not (and must not be) "Feminists", this is a one-sided position and, therefore, divisive. We do not advocate any '-ist', '-ism' or schism. (We were all originally androgynes). We love and embrace all males who have, or are trying to, come into balance with their Anima. They ARE the hope of the World. Everything has its Time and Season -- the World is being drawn into spiritual balance -- can't you feel the pull? What else are you here for?
The 'Lion's Seer' [L.Cohen] 'called' to you; you've heard; you've come ---
do you Really know why? The Time we are in now was called "the Age of the Lily". Read Luke (the 'Feeling' Gospel) and note the prophesies regarding the Feminine.

Go forth with Love,

Gennelle Marie

~Honi soi qui mal y pons~

[George.Wright]

The Feminime always needs the masculine
the "PULL"
it is the duality that begats the earth
for if it was left to others
we would be barren.
Georges

[babz]

Wise words, Gennelle. An exceptional woman I knew, an expert on power equity groups, put it this way: To journey on the male/female continuum requires different things from men and women. For women, coming into consciousness and rejecting the dominant paradigm is like taking off a heavy overcoat! For men, it is like removing their skin. God/dess bless all those with the courage to do it!

After Jean Shinoda Bolen wrote Goddesses in Everywoman she was besieged to write Gods in Everyman because of the interest and response.

I know I have a poem that begins:
My animus cut loose last night!

Lizzy those brunches sound nourishing in every way. The problem of same sex violence becomes clearer when we re-emphasize that domestic abuse is not about sex but about power and control.

Love
Barbara

JOY
PLEASE FIND ME
I AM [feeling] ALMOST 30

[George.Wright]

babz, your right it is always about power and controll
sex is the secondary option
georges

[Bilbao]

Hi Babz, Makera

Not only you both know an enormous amount of difficult English words, but you're also able to arrange them in a beautiful way, dear poets!!! I'm gobsmacked. Wonderful poems.
Curiously enough, you have both chosen the same topic, the great goddess. That reminds me of my schooldays, when we were studying ancient history...and Latin
Wish I could heard your poem/song as well, Babz. (and a belated thank you for your warm welcome...)

[lizzytysh]

Yes, Babz, exactly, on how it really gets down to the bones with the domestic-abuse issue. The brunches are, indeed, very nourishing, even if we bypassed the meal. Very appropos analogy by the expert you know. We're very entrenched in the quicksand of it. Not easy to get out and keep all the issues straight, and the tenderness alive. One of the repelling things about the militant "feminist" groups is that feeling [much less expressing] that men are a valid choice for a partner, invalidates you! So off-balance. It seems that power balance should be the goal....not to strip one or the other of it. Control is control, and oppressive, no matter which direction it comes from.

I think I hear your animus poem begging to be posted .

By the way, the mind remembered "blue" ~ the cover of the book begins with a hazy, yellowish-greeen in her forehead area, fading into a mauvish-pink in her face, and ending in the greyish-blue in her neck area, where the title of the book, her name, and other info appear. The muted, hazy colours are aura-like in tone.

The historical, goddess reality lends a perspective to the criticism[s] Leonard has received for his "worship" of women, putting them on a pedestal, et al ? Also, how about his wish that the women would hurry up and take over the world ? Perhaps they're old-soul memories from his ancient lives .

Love, Elizabeth

[Vesuvius]

Ciao Crones!

All of this "I am Woman Hear Me Roar" is so much blather. Isis indeed! This thread is not taking a turn for the better. Silly "crone" talk is not the voice of reason and positive discussion. Sacred Feminine? Ecological Preserve/Feminist Retreat Center/Organic Farm? Hazy, yellowish-green foreheads? Mauvish-pink faces? BAH!

Women are no better and no worse than men. So lets have no more of this talk about how men should get in touch with their feminine sides. Instead let men be true men. Encourage them to be noble. Do not insist that men (and the world) would be better off if only men would behave like crones.

Vesuvius

[Makera]

Dear Siblings:

Babz, Bilbao, Linmag~ Thank you for your compliments. Fleya (Bilbao), we should be granting due deference to you: Goddess of Love and Beauty!
Aren't you glad your parents didn't name you after Odin's wife 'Frigg'!!!

I don't like to read feminist-type books. Never had any interest in the opinions of others, too often motivated by book sales of the latest trendy idea i.e. 'snake oil'. I feel an awful lot of crap has been propogated under the guise of 'helping' or "empowering" women; to the detriment of their innate powers of intuition and insight. I found everything I needed to know about knowing myself by reading the relevant works of Carl Jung.(Not so trendy or cleverly marketed). When trendy opinions are 'marketed' for long enough they become cultural dogma. That's the insidious trap that needs to be avoided and its influence shed. The only way to let the true Spirit flow in, is to release all preconceived ideas and influences, from any other source. The only other books that I've found helpful are reference books on relevant archetypal myths, symbolism, ancient history etc. Always believed in going to the source for my information. It takes constant vigilance to keep the subtler brainwashing effects out. The claims that men find it more difficult to shed their 'whatever-trendy-term' than women, stikes me as more stuff to make you believe you can't do anything without the specialized knowledge they offer.
What's wrong with letting go to just BE, with Love anything is possible. The masters of obfuscation are no doubt planning the next book to bamboozle some more.

I'll have to catch up on this later.

with Love
Gennelle
(always a heretic)

[babz]

Georges
Thanks for the comment.
Now, can you tell me why this phrase
popped into my mind after reading it:

Candy is dandy
But liquor is quicker

Did my animus make me do it?

Ves
I couldn't agree... more or less.

Babz

[babz]

You certainly have given the trendy *women* empowerment books their proper place. I agree with you. The only point I would like to make is that there are very real consequences resulting from centuries of second class status, both cultural and psychological. Individual women have always risen to the heights open to them. But the average woman needs education.

Perhaps it is too many years working in a crisis center for domestic violence and sexual assault, witnessing the emotional devastation of not only poverty-stricken victims but bright, successful women, spinning their wheels in fear and paralysis, that colors my experience.

But I don't want to mount that soap box. In my better moments I feel as you do, just BE, let LOVE work the miracle. Then there are the other moments...

I'm ready to move on to Ten Tips To Avoid Being A Wanker.

Love
Barbara

[lizzytysh]

Hi Babz ~

I'm not at either now, but have also worked in [both the sexual-assault and domestic-violence] centers, and in the context of other, professional jobs ~ where I would, not-as-part-of-the-job, drive various women to the courthouse to start the process for obtaining restraining orders ~ that in itself often a life-changing, paradigm shift for them. Unfortunately, not all women read, or have obtained the educational level to even prompt them in that direction, or lead the kind of lives that encourage or allow for picking up a book. The grocery-store fare can be the closest they get to "education," beyond their drop-out years, or their treasured and hard-earned GED. The bright, educated women can be just as difficult because their status as such can serve to dig them deeper into their denial and shame.

Way too many issues to spell out on all this, as I know you know, but the great books are a panacea only for some. The others, of course, shouldn't remain in their suffering because they haven't had, or "can't" take the opportunity, to avail themselves. Some wouldn't be able to really grasp the concepts, as written. Returning to the "self" for the message and allowing oneself to just "BE," with "love" being a highly-relative term, unfortunately, would send many scurrying to the corner to pick up one of the many, tattered-and-torn used tapes piled there, given to and foisted upon them by others. The baby steps can work out to be giant steps, when they put [take] action before theory [regardless of how well-supported]. I'm reminded of the "biblical" perspective [won't be related in the correct, biblical terminology] of if a person comes to you starving, don't quote them scripture. Give them a bowl of soup. Only after the hunger in their stomach has been helped, will they be able to listen and hear what you have to say.

Oh, and by the way and just to be sure , I understood your meaning on the nourishment [healing] the brunches offer. My response was my way of agreeing and underscoring what you'd said.

Love,
Elizabeth

[Makera]

Hi Barbara~

Yes, we do need to build a 'bridge', to and for, the ones in pain! That is what I'm trying (sometimes clumsily, perhaps) to get across -- in more ways than one . Oh, yes, 'Tip 1': Beware all 'assumptions'; remember there is a gaping chasm between 'opinion' and 'knowledge' --
so many fall in unawares.
The cultural conditioning, over so much time, is indeed a problem. However, there is a Reason for everything that happens to (for) us. Whether it is our karma (balancing cause & effect), propulsion (to greater heights) or as a learning/teaching aid. The perceived 'oppression' can be our impetous, the fire beneath/within, to break Free. Stumbling block or stepping stone; the choice is, as ever and always, ours. No-one can be shown what they don't want to see. When you truly want and need to know, (i.e. ask and seek desperately enough) no power on earth can prevent the answer you need from coming to you. That is an absolute fact.
(and we know how rare those are )

When my husband and I were left high and dry by an incompetent and avaricious 'partner' (re one of my husband's inventions) we ended up at a 'Rescue Mission' Family Shelter (in'97). It had separate 'hotel-like' rooms, so families could remain together, (without separating husbands from their wives &/or children). It was basic, but quite adequate.
After about 2 weeks the Director of the 'Mission' made us the managers.(i.e.replacing the former who had been abusing his position by propositioning and/or molesting the mostly single mother's at his mercy)
Since the rules had been that a family could stay only 2 weeks or until work/housing was found, the pressure was uneccessary on some with little prospect of that. We changed that; and my husband helped them in every way possible to find jobs or housing without setting unreasonable time limits on something that cannot be predicted. My husband ran the office and general maintenance while I prepared the rooms for new admissions and did the laundry for all the 'guests'. We had no assistants for this except for a little help from some of our 'charges'. They only had to keep their own rooms clean while in residence; and (supposedly) leave them clean when they left. I leave that to your understanding as to what that usually meant. Our only payment was $100 every 2 weeks, (just enough for my cigarettes and some personal necessities/luxuries) we of course had all our meals, (prepared daily at the main 'Mission' across the street) room & board. We also eased up, as far as possible, the ridiculous religious indoctrination schedule they had in place -- as the 'cost' of this 'charity'. Like in the mornings when the time was critical for those trying to find work to make their calls for job interviews! Needless to say, that was a popular change. We did this for 4 months and both of us had the most edifying, enlightening, strengthening experience of our entire life! I got the most incredible satisfaction and joy from cleaning rooms and washing clothes for these soul-weary and confused women. I loved doing for them as if for the Greatest; what a gift to be granted that opportunity!
Yes, faith 'without works' is definitely dead; boy have we seen that in action. The corruption at that "Mission" is a whole other story! But there is always a 'reckoning'.

Anyway, hope this helps with 'where I'm coming from' when I say what I say. Also, as a footnote: I have no worldly 'qualifications'; no piece of paper from any university or 'educational' institution.

with Love,

Gennelle Marie