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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Hi Helven ~

I appreciate your time and thoughtfulness in your posting in response to mine. I didn't mean to suggest that Leonard's art [as in writing and anything else creative that he does] should be mutually exclusive with money, or he becomes a "bad person" somehow. The best possible thing is to be able to make your money to live doing something you love. I don't think that it invalidates the beauty and intention of his art to receive payment for it. However, he's doing the creating first. There are many things he's written ~ he writes because he must write ~ that he's never received payment for, nor never tried. It's the implication that money is his motive for doing so that I object to. He will write many songs that will never be recorded by him. The ones whom I might consider to be in the category of "money is my goal" are the "formula writers" ~ the ones who know what the radio play will likely be, and then start cranking them out. We all need to live, and living requires financial exchange in most arenas. I wouldn't expect Leonard to be "indifferent" in the sense of recording an album, and then saying, "Oh no, Sony! You take it! Sell it! Pay me nothing! I work for the love of my art, not for money!" This example is to an extreme just to make my point, not to be sarcastic toward you. I don't feel that any of the fruits of his efforts are denigrated because he is able to realize a monetary gain at some point and in some measure from them. I feel that that's only realistic that he do so. However, to suggest that his motives are strictly monetary does, indeed [from my perspective], denigrate the true poet, of which Leonard is one. It's the difference between art and commercialism. The one serves to accuse him of mindless greed. It was this essence that I found offensive.

Leonard is actually rather unique in his high regard for his followers/appreciators/fans/whatever. He takes what he does very seriously, feels they deserve his very best, and does all he can to give it to them. You can also hear it in his voice in his concerts, and see it in his performances, and the extension of his performances. You can see it in his responding to us here. At one time in his life, you could get a personal response from him, by mail or by phone. He has always had a keen awareness and respect for the symbiotic relationship between an artist and the "fans." He has arranged for his own level of involvement [as much as is possible], even through other people as "emissaries." As I'm recalling, Lorca, his daughter, came to the Hydra gathering. Esther, his sister, was at the Montreal gathering, and the recent concert of Leonard's songs in New York City. They love him as family, as well as an artist, and at least Esther loves his "fans," and they no doubt wanted to come, on their own, regardless. He has given his respect in the ways he has found possible. There are also, no doubt, many anecdotes of other ways he shows his sincere respect for those who know and love him and his music/writing. He has created an atmosphere around himself that conveys the importance to him of his fans, and not just through him, we see it manifested in his family members, and people who have been in his group[s].

I really appreciate your poem, by Pushkin as it turns out [which I wouldn't have known on my own], and the one eeey has posted following it, as well. "The Poet" says a lot, and takes more than several readings to glean all that's there. Thanks.

~ Lizzytysh
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Helven
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Post by Helven »

Hello eeey,

Brilliant lines! Thanks. :D
Well, I'm afraid I don't even know if I'm a Pushkin fan or not :? . I know his poetry a little and I love it, of course. Actually Puchkin's poems (and Hans Christian Andersen' fairy tales as well) formed my world when I was a little girl. It wouldn't be a big exaggeration to say that I learnt to speak reciting his lyrics :lol: . So his poetry has always been like a kind of "natural phenomenon" for me. But, unfortunately, I can't call myself an expert…

Helven
I've finally found myself! But that turned out to be a completely different person.
/contemporary saying/
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Paula
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Post by Paula »

Helven I love your dolphin where did you get it?
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Helven
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Post by Helven »

Hi Lizzytysh,

Thanks for the response. It contains some things I didn’t know. And it was interesting to know.

I agree, the true poet can’t be possessed by greed and monetary motives in his creative work – because it is creative work itself that possesses him and becomes his fate and his cross. And Mr. Cohen, without a doubt, is one of the true poets. :D

Helven
I've finally found myself! But that turned out to be a completely different person.
/contemporary saying/
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Very well said, Helven. I agree :D .

By the way, the poem that eeey posted also has a lot to say, and requires more than a brief perusal. I wasn't contrasting The Poet with the one she put here. I really like them both. What a way to learn English. It seems some pretty magical pathways must have been woven into your mind as you grew with this level of poetry. Perhaps it's to that, that some of the depth I see in your thinking and writing can be attributed.

~ Lizzytysh
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Helven
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Post by Helven »

Hello Paula,

Unfortunately, I don’t know where my dolphin has come to me from. I have a small collection of images which I’ve got from various CD-s. And it isn’t easy now to establish their provenance. :)

Helven
I've finally found myself! But that turned out to be a completely different person.
/contemporary saying/
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Helven
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Post by Helven »

Thanks for the compliments, Lizzytysh.
Incidentally, it would be very interesting to read your (and someone else’ as well) readings of the Pushkin’s poems. (Just because it’s always interesting to encounter fresh understanding of things that are seem to be quite usual.) But, of course, I’ll retrain from inviting to discuss those poems. Otherwise Leonard Cohen Forum will transform into Alexander Pushkin Forum. :lol:
I've finally found myself! But that turned out to be a completely different person.
/contemporary saying/
Moonlight
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Post by Moonlight »

Lizzytysh, once again you completely missed the point . It wasn't about Leonard writing for money. It was the absurd notion you have that we are "there" for him. As though the members of this forum or his followers at large are involved in his life in some deep, personal way. He doesn't know us. We don't Know him. This forum is a one-way street. And it doesn't lead to Leonard. That's what your constant drama is all about. You think it does lead to him. Forget it. You're never going to get that call in the night...the one where he thanks you for your devotion and defense of his honor. It's not going to happen. The Leonard Cohen you have invented, this paragon of all the virtues and practitioner of all the interesting vices, doesn't exist. He's not REAL.
Linda
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Post by Linda »

Would anyone want it any other way? That is very true Moonlight, about creating this perfect person in your mind.. It might be darn hard to live up to.

It would be like being the person your dog thinks you are. :)
Linda
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Helven
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Post by Helven »

Just one little comment…
In reality, everyone has his/her own “reality” that may look like illusion from the point of view of other “realities”. But it doesn’t mean that some of those “realities” are “the realest realities”, because all of them are, probably, nothing but fiction being compared with the true reality. :wink:

And if to be serious, my own experience shows me that we have the right to destroy somebody’s illusions in that case only when we are able to give something instead – something that person can lean on. All of us surely need our illusions to survive.
I've finally found myself! But that turned out to be a completely different person.
/contemporary saying/
Bilbao
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Post by Bilbao »

Helven wrote:
And if to be serious, my own experience shows me that we have the right to destroy somebody’s illusions in that case only when we are able to give something instead – something that person can lean on. All of us surely need our illusions to survive.

ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
Err.... Helven....

I'm afraid I'm going to break your heart and destroy your illusions saying this, but I have to inform you that Carthago was actually *delenda* long time ago. Publius Cornelius Scipio Emilianus did the job. And that's final and real!:D
Please, reconsider your aim. What about "Carpe diem"? An everlasting slogan... :wink:
Moonlight
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Post by Moonlight »

I don't mind people having their "illusions." The problem comes when they rip into others who don't share their illusion. (Or I should say delusion.) I don't want to have to genuflect before LC like some household god every time I post in this forum.
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Helven
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Post by Helven »

Err.... Helven....

I'm afraid I'm going to break your heart and destroy your illusions saying this, but I have to inform you that Carthago was actually *delenda* long time ago. Publius Cornelius Scipio Emilianus did the job. And that's final and real!
Please, reconsider your aim. What about "Carpe diem"? An everlasting slogan...
Oh, what a clever person! :D
Thanks, Bilbao, it was very kind of you to share your deep knowledge with me. :wink: Yet, I think, “Carthago-s” will last our time. :D
I've finally found myself! But that turned out to be a completely different person.
/contemporary saying/
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Makera
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Post by Makera »

Helven & Bibao~

Won't you both be so generous as to share your esoteric knowledge by providing the translation of the signature/slogan used by Helven?

Also, with regard to the former subject, wanting to know (or assuming) too much about the 'person' through whom great works are manifest can be a stumbling block and distraction from the meaning and purpose of the 'work' itself. The persona is one thing, the soul is another.

It is so easy to confuse the 'messenger' (subjective appearance) with the 'message'(objective purpose/reality) Perceptions are coloured by one's beliefs (as opposed to knowledge),prejudices and preconceptions. Hence the admonition to "Know them by their fruits". Remember, they 'saw' a fasting, wine-abstaining, long-haired 'cave-man' come out of the desert telling them to change there rotten ways -- and called him a raving lunatic; they 'saw' a rabbi 'partying' and drinking at feasts with social outcasts -- and called him a glutton, drunkard, and associate of society's 'untouchables'. "But Wisdom is justified by all her children (deeds/fruits)". Imagine what they 'saw' then when he "cleared the Temple"!

~Makera

"Though your promise count for nothing, you must keep it nonetheless"
Bilbao
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Post by Bilbao »

Makera wrote:Helven & Bibao~

Won't you both be so generous as to share your esoteric knowledge by providing the translation of the signature/slogan used by Helven?

With pleasure, Makera

It's not any esoteric knowledge, it's just Latin.:D
"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam", means "And furthermore I believe that Carthage must be destroyed".
Cato the Elder used to close his speechs with this sentence, because he was convinced that Carthage was the most dangerous rival to Rome.
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