and the inverse: shape or form, in any way (and without form, by the way), without sex there wouldn't be god.Linda wrote:Without God there wouldn't be sex, in any way, shape or form.
Is God created in the image of man/woman?
various versions of hallelujah
Hi songster ~
Whereas you find Leonard's ambiguity in his songwriting as a weakness, I find it as a strength. For me, it is far more inclusive of how we are as beings, and where we tend to live, both inside and outside of our heads ~ often fully ambiguous in our thinking and behaviours ~ than any definitive absolutes would be. You appear to have set some pretty rigid parameters, though I may be reading what you've said wrong.
~ Lizzytysh
Whereas you find Leonard's ambiguity in his songwriting as a weakness, I find it as a strength. For me, it is far more inclusive of how we are as beings, and where we tend to live, both inside and outside of our heads ~ often fully ambiguous in our thinking and behaviours ~ than any definitive absolutes would be. You appear to have set some pretty rigid parameters, though I may be reading what you've said wrong.
~ Lizzytysh
Does anyone think that ideas can become idolatry? (sorry, I'm reading Huxley)
I can never listen to Leonard again ... sniff
god said, or Aldous (pg. 250 in the Perennial, another absolute? 
)
Oh well, there's always that goddess option, drumming and all. And goddess salad dressing!
Yum!
oh lettuce!. 
(crunch, crunch. crunch ...)
I can never listen to Leonard again ... sniff
god said, or Aldous (pg. 250 in the Perennial, another absolute? )Oh well, there's always that goddess option, drumming and all. And goddess salad dressing!
Yum!
oh lettuce!. (crunch, crunch. crunch ...)Hello Lizzytysh,
I'm not the one setting the parameters. I don't think prohibiting the taking of another man's wife and then murdering the man to hide the adultery is being "pretty rigid." Do you? That's why the use of David and Bath-sheba as some kind of metaphor for spiritual sexuality doesn't wash.
I'm not the one setting the parameters. I don't think prohibiting the taking of another man's wife and then murdering the man to hide the adultery is being "pretty rigid." Do you? That's why the use of David and Bath-sheba as some kind of metaphor for spiritual sexuality doesn't wash.
Songster and Elizabeth:
I am not familiar with the specific religious imagery that Songster refers to in the song. But I think the song is more about love, passionate love than it is about religion. In fact the song itself refers to this ambiguity twice in the song, first at the beginning where he says, "the baffled king composing Hallelujah" and then again where it says, "It doesn't matter which you heard; The holy or the broken Hallelujah".
The reason I say it is more about passionate love (or romantic love if you will) is because of the line, "I couldn't feel so I learned to touch". I consider this line to be the one which gives me an insight into what Leonard was writing/singing about.
Above and beyond everything else it is an absolutely incredible song. And in fact I enjoy the hint of ambiguity in the song and embrace it. Its as if the writer is being a bit capricious. I like that and choose to believe that that it is more about romantic love. Because the sexual imagery is just oh so amazing.
As well I love the way it goes from the sublime to the mundane where it says, "You say I took the name in vain, I don't even know the name. But if I did, well really, what's it to you?" The lines, "what's it to you?" this is a line children use in an offhand way in their conversations, and it has a telling effect on the whole song and takes it momentarily into into a playful and very different realm. Leonard does that a few times in the song. Its almost as if at those junctures Leonard is having a great laugh.
No matter what, I love the song passionately. My favourite lines from the song are, "I've seen your flag on the marble arch but love is not a victory march. It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah". I am grateful to Leonard for these lines (as I am for his gift of so many songs).
Best,
Biraj
I am not familiar with the specific religious imagery that Songster refers to in the song. But I think the song is more about love, passionate love than it is about religion. In fact the song itself refers to this ambiguity twice in the song, first at the beginning where he says, "the baffled king composing Hallelujah" and then again where it says, "It doesn't matter which you heard; The holy or the broken Hallelujah".
The reason I say it is more about passionate love (or romantic love if you will) is because of the line, "I couldn't feel so I learned to touch". I consider this line to be the one which gives me an insight into what Leonard was writing/singing about.
Above and beyond everything else it is an absolutely incredible song. And in fact I enjoy the hint of ambiguity in the song and embrace it. Its as if the writer is being a bit capricious. I like that and choose to believe that that it is more about romantic love. Because the sexual imagery is just oh so amazing.
As well I love the way it goes from the sublime to the mundane where it says, "You say I took the name in vain, I don't even know the name. But if I did, well really, what's it to you?" The lines, "what's it to you?" this is a line children use in an offhand way in their conversations, and it has a telling effect on the whole song and takes it momentarily into into a playful and very different realm. Leonard does that a few times in the song. Its almost as if at those junctures Leonard is having a great laugh.
No matter what, I love the song passionately. My favourite lines from the song are, "I've seen your flag on the marble arch but love is not a victory march. It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah". I am grateful to Leonard for these lines (as I am for his gift of so many songs).
Best,
Biraj
"So if you're sitting all alone and hear a-knocking at your door and the air is full of promises, well buddy, you've been warned!!!"
Nick Cave on love
Nick Cave on love
Hi Biraj ~
I only just realized that I never responded to Songster's post. I recall reading it, but not why I never responded; whether I decided to just let it be and not try to explore our vast differences on the song; or whether I intended to, and simply forgot.
However, "I couldn't feel so I learned to touch" has always been powerful for me, too.....and I've felt the song centers more on this concept than any other, as well. I agree with your other comments on the song, too. May I just adopt your answer ? Thanks for taking the time that, for whichever reason, I didn't.
Just reading the lines to his song[s] ~ as I did hear with your quoting ~ brings that internal building of energy, excitement, and powerful emotion. Such a magnificent, glorious, resplendent song ~ "Hallelujah"!
~ Elizabeth
I only just realized that I never responded to Songster's post. I recall reading it, but not why I never responded; whether I decided to just let it be and not try to explore our vast differences on the song; or whether I intended to, and simply forgot.
However, "I couldn't feel so I learned to touch" has always been powerful for me, too.....and I've felt the song centers more on this concept than any other, as well. I agree with your other comments on the song, too. May I just adopt your answer
? Thanks for taking the time that, for whichever reason, I didn't.Just reading the lines to his song[s] ~ as I did hear with your quoting ~ brings that internal building of energy, excitement, and powerful emotion. Such a magnificent, glorious, resplendent song ~ "Hallelujah"!
~ Elizabeth
Hi Elizabeth:
It is amazing how much joy a song can confer, and that is what "Hallelujah" does for me. For years I glossed over this song and suddenly one day there it was, in all its resplendent beauty - suddenly meaningful, reaching into the depths of the heart, while making offerings of beauty that even the mind could understand and revel in. This is where Leonard is untouchable, absolutely untouchable. And it is delightful to meet up with someone who feels so strongly about the song.
I have an interesting story about "Hallelujah". About 3 weeks ago I took my compiled CD of the song done by Leonard (of course) as well as cover versions done by others (John Cale, Rufus Wainwright, Sheryl Crow etc.) to work. A colleague of mine who is also very much into music and is somewhat familiar with Leonard's work, heard Leonard's version of the song and was most taken with it. He is also very involved with his church. After hearing the song a few times, he said he was going to suggest that his daughter perform "Hallelujah" with church choir. I asked him but what about the sexual imagery. He said, "it is high time there was new version of Hallelujah. Let them figure it out". I had a great laugh on that one. I don't know if she performed it or not. But he did take Jarkko's website address specifically marked to the page where the words and chords to the song are.
Take care,
Biraj
It is amazing how much joy a song can confer, and that is what "Hallelujah" does for me. For years I glossed over this song and suddenly one day there it was, in all its resplendent beauty - suddenly meaningful, reaching into the depths of the heart, while making offerings of beauty that even the mind could understand and revel in. This is where Leonard is untouchable, absolutely untouchable. And it is delightful to meet up with someone who feels so strongly about the song.
I have an interesting story about "Hallelujah". About 3 weeks ago I took my compiled CD of the song done by Leonard (of course) as well as cover versions done by others (John Cale, Rufus Wainwright, Sheryl Crow etc.) to work. A colleague of mine who is also very much into music and is somewhat familiar with Leonard's work, heard Leonard's version of the song and was most taken with it. He is also very involved with his church. After hearing the song a few times, he said he was going to suggest that his daughter perform "Hallelujah" with church choir. I asked him but what about the sexual imagery. He said, "it is high time there was new version of Hallelujah. Let them figure it out". I had a great laugh on that one. I don't know if she performed it or not. But he did take Jarkko's website address specifically marked to the page where the words and chords to the song are.
Take care,
Biraj
"So if you're sitting all alone and hear a-knocking at your door and the air is full of promises, well buddy, you've been warned!!!"
Nick Cave on love
Nick Cave on love
That's a great story, Biraj 
! Unless it was a Unitarian [or similar] church, she may have backed out on performing it, but I'll remain hopeful! How about you?
I can tell you with absolute assurance, that I may have been the one to respond to your post, but you have ~ in fact ~ met with a multitude of people here, who feel just as strongly about "Hallelujah" as we do 
!
"... meaningful, reaching into the depths of the heart, while making offerings of beauty that even the mind could understand and revel in. This is where Leonard is untouchable, absolutely untouchable".....I feel every bit as strongly about these facts regarding Leonard'swriting of his songs!
Thanks for your great response, Biraj
.
~ Elizabeth
! Unless it was a Unitarian [or similar] church, she may have backed out on performing it, but I'll remain hopeful! How about you?I can tell you with absolute assurance, that I may have been the one to respond to your post, but you have ~ in fact ~ met with a multitude of people here, who feel just as strongly about "Hallelujah" as we do
!"... meaningful, reaching into the depths of the heart, while making offerings of beauty that even the mind could understand and revel in. This is where Leonard is untouchable, absolutely untouchable".....I feel every bit as strongly about these facts regarding Leonard'swriting of his songs!
Thanks for your great response, Biraj
.~ Elizabeth
This was posted on the Sony Board. The person may come here and post it, too, but just in case, I'm bringing it here, in case anyone is interested in following up:
"Earlier this week, Allison Crowe, a Canadian singer-songwriter (whom I manage), recorded several songs live-off-the-floor with ber band for release as a seasonal disc.
Included in the set was one of Allison's favourite Leonard Cohen songs, Hallelujah.
I hope that people here may enjoy hearing this music and will appreciate the interpretation as much as I. For a limited time, this solo version, recorded in a single take, can be heard at:
http://www.allisoncrowe.com/hallelujah128.mp3
http://www.allisoncrowe.com/hallelujah96.mp3
Thank you for listening ( :
peace and cheers, Adrian"
~ Elizabeth
"Earlier this week, Allison Crowe, a Canadian singer-songwriter (whom I manage), recorded several songs live-off-the-floor with ber band for release as a seasonal disc.
Included in the set was one of Allison's favourite Leonard Cohen songs, Hallelujah.
I hope that people here may enjoy hearing this music and will appreciate the interpretation as much as I. For a limited time, this solo version, recorded in a single take, can be heard at:
http://www.allisoncrowe.com/hallelujah128.mp3
http://www.allisoncrowe.com/hallelujah96.mp3
Thank you for listening ( :
peace and cheers, Adrian"
~ Elizabeth
Lostlyric/Biraj~
I share your, and Liz's, love for Hallelujah. I hadn't heard the alternate versions mentioned here, so the one I first heard on the Various Positions album remains the quintessential one for me. With the ultimate lines: "And even though it all went wrong, I'll stand before the Lord of Song with nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah..."; still the best, to me anyway.
As a lover of the Psalms, this song (for me) exemplifies so much of the essence of David's quest for at-onement with God; the passion, vulnerability, faith, strength, weakness...real, and human! Since "a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart" [Ps 51] is the real 'sacrifice' required to reach greater heights, (i.e. 'fall to fly'; "the minor fall, the major lift"; break your "throne", cut your "hair") the David analogy is a perfect parable. The rich, archetypal symbolism in LC's works is what places him in the same class as the original psalmists/sacred musicians. It is also interesting that a vow made in sacred verse "cannot be broken" [Jn 10:35]. Note LC's:"Though your promise count for nothing, you must keep it none the less". See Psalm 89 (a Maskil of Ethan the Ezrahite).
~Gennelle
I share your, and Liz's, love for Hallelujah. I hadn't heard the alternate versions mentioned here, so the one I first heard on the Various Positions album remains the quintessential one for me. With the ultimate lines: "And even though it all went wrong, I'll stand before the Lord of Song with nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah..."; still the best, to me anyway.
As a lover of the Psalms, this song (for me) exemplifies so much of the essence of David's quest for at-onement with God; the passion, vulnerability, faith, strength, weakness...real, and human! Since "a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart" [Ps 51] is the real 'sacrifice' required to reach greater heights, (i.e. 'fall to fly'; "the minor fall, the major lift"; break your "throne", cut your "hair") the David analogy is a perfect parable. The rich, archetypal symbolism in LC's works is what places him in the same class as the original psalmists/sacred musicians. It is also interesting that a vow made in sacred verse "cannot be broken" [Jn 10:35]. Note LC's:"Though your promise count for nothing, you must keep it none the less". See Psalm 89 (a Maskil of Ethan the Ezrahite).
~Gennelle
Dear Helven ~ You're welcome , and I haven't even heard it 
! Will need to wait 'till I get to work, where there are functioning speakers .
Makera ~ I love all that you said about "Hallelujah," Makera, with which I also agree. The many layers of Leonard's songs that come with such precision. Thanks for expounding on it.
Biraj ~ Isn't it wonderful, at last, to be amongst so many true appreciators of Leonard's music? Will you be coming to the 2004 New York Event?
~ Lizzy
, and I haven't even heard it ! Will need to wait 'till I get to work, where there are functioning speakers .Makera ~ I love all that you said about "Hallelujah," Makera, with which I also agree. The many layers of Leonard's songs that come with such precision. Thanks for expounding on it.
Biraj ~ Isn't it wonderful, at last, to be amongst so many true appreciators of Leonard's music? Will you be coming to the 2004 New York Event?
~ Lizzy
Hi Elizabeth:
Yes, it is delightful to be among those who are genuinely into Leonard's work and delve into it. I would certainly like to come to the NY event. Hopefully I can work out the logistics. But I am unsure at this point. Though I must confess I *love* Manhattan, I used to live in NYC in what seems like another lifetime.
But thanks for asking ~ 'tis sweet of you ~ ~ it feels nice to be asked.
Best,
Biraj
Yes, it is delightful to be among those who are genuinely into Leonard's work and delve into it. I would certainly like to come to the NY event. Hopefully I can work out the logistics. But I am unsure at this point. Though I must confess I *love* Manhattan, I used to live in NYC in what seems like another lifetime.
But thanks for asking ~ 'tis sweet of you ~ ~ it feels nice to be asked.
Best,
Biraj
"So if you're sitting all alone and hear a-knocking at your door and the air is full of promises, well buddy, you've been warned!!!"
Nick Cave on love
Nick Cave on love
Hope to see you there, Biraj.....if not, perhaps another time, another place . There will be another Event two years after this one, but it will be on a significant distance further 
. This one would be a great opportunity to meet names that you are already familiar with, and more will become so, as time goes on. I still understand the logistics problem .
Yes, and isn't it odd how those various segments of our lives seemingly divide themselves into "other lifetimes" ? At least, you're starting a whole lot closer than I am in your positioning to New York. I've visited there several times, and would love to be able to say that I once lived there.....simply for the experience .
Since I'll soon be acquiring my first cd of Nick Cave's, from which is your quote?
~ Elizabeth
. There will be another Event two years after this one, but it will be on a significant distance further . This one would be a great opportunity to meet names that you are already familiar with, and more will become so, as time goes on. I still understand the logistics problem .Yes, and isn't it odd how those various segments of our lives seemingly divide themselves into "other lifetimes"
? At least, you're starting a whole lot closer than I am in your positioning to New York. I've visited there several times, and would love to be able to say that I once lived there.....simply for the experience .Since I'll soon be acquiring my first cd of Nick Cave's, from which is your quote?
~ Elizabeth