Concerts & Bootlegs

[lizzytysh]

Jarkko ~

I apologize if this is already posted somewhere on your site. However, is there a tally of how many concerts Leonard has done? The upshot of that would be what is the potential number for bootlegs?

Thanks.

~ Lizzytysh

[jarkko]

I have never counted - but about all gigs have been listed at
http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/tours.html

I guess you are mixing up AUDIENCE RECORDINGS and
BOOTLEGS.

"Bootleg" is a factory made, unathorized CD produced by a
company. The bootleg CD is not "burned" using a CDR writer
but pressed in a factory. Bootlegs are commercial products,
released to make profit.

Collectors trade concerts CDRs, usually originally recorded on
a C cassette or DAT tape by people sitting in the audience
(if they are lucky they have been able to plug into the sound system
to guarantee perfect sound quality, but usually they just use
a microphone from where they sit). Here we speak about fans
who want to save those memorable moments and swap their
tapes or CDRs with other fans of the same artist.

There are quite few professional bootlegs but hundreds of concert
recordings of LC's performances.
- I have listed all known bootlegs and
these pages start at http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/bootleg1.html

It is not possible to make a complete listing of all concert recordings
- it would be as long or longer than the list of his concerts!!!

Jarkko

[lizzytysh]

Thanks, Jarkko ~

I never knew the distinction and have applied "bootleg" in a generic way, as anything available other than a "Live" recording by a record company. That generates a second question now ~ if the bootlegs are factory made with profit in mind, why is sale of them between fans such an issue? Where is the factory list of bootlegs, for purchasing them from the manufacturer of them. Does Leonard getting any financial benefit from these sales, at any stage of the process [even if just upfront?]

For me, knowing the number of concerts would be good, in that the quality of the recording [bootleg or audience member] is important, but not as much as the content of the concert itself ~ the difference in the wordings, the comments made in the beginning, between songs, and at the end. It seems audience recordings are assigned different names by the person who recorded them. If Leonard only played 3 times per year, two different years in Chicago, then once copies of those 6 concerts were obtained, no matter what another one was called, I'd know I already had all the concerts, with the only variation being quality.

I'll go to the link and copy it for checking off what I have and don't have [not much ], but it remains a process. Thanks a lot!

~ Elizabeth

[jarkko]

First of all, it is illegal to manufacture and sell bootlegs (I'm speaking again about the commercial products --- see my previous postings). It is illegal in the US and in all countries of the European Union. In principle it is illegal also in the Far East but most of the governments don't watch over that the laws are obeyed. Before the EU legislation there was a hole in the copyright laws in Italy, and that's why many existing LC bootlegs were made in that country. Nowadays such business would be closed and prosecuted. Most of the companies have closed down or keep very low profile. You cannot find the bootlegs in any decent record shop. Sometimes you can find them at record fairs (in Europe usually in Germany and Holland). Some sellers offer bootlegs at eBay but the items are removed if one of the copyright holders makes complaint.

The bootleggers do NOT pay any royalties to Leonard (nor to Sony). So they just steal the work of the artist and try to make as much money out of it as possible. The same happens in Russia where numerous illegal compilations have been released - they take original songs from L's official album and make all kinds of compilations. The photos for the front and back covers (sometimes they even print a booklet) are usually taken from books or internet (lots of photos have been stolen from my site wihtout any permission of the photographers). Even a photo Kelley shot in Los Angeles, showing Leonard & myself toasting with a Red Needle, has been used in one of those fakes in Russia!

I think Leonard and Sony should continue to release live records, let's say one for each tour he made --- Field Commander was a good start! They have recordings of at least the tours that followed the 1979 tour. It's most regrettable that some of the best live records are bootlegs (maybe Zurich 1993 double-CDs should be mentioned here).

Jarkko

[lizzytysh]

Thanks for all that information, Jarkko. ONLY because I want the concert recordings, regardless, NOT because I want to profit in ANY way, I admit a continued desire for bootlegs, if they contain any concert recordings I don't have [again, many]. I think it's shameless for the bootleggers to have pirated those things from your site without any attempt, much less granting, permission. Just as an aside, that's a great photo.

It may sound sappy [in fact, I'm sure it does], but for every bootleg I would get, I would have no problem sending Leonard [via Kelley] $5.00 [which I think would approximate, if not exceed, any royalties he might legitimately get from it]. I'm presuming if I did that, it would end up in his account for his use. Would that be a correct presumption?

I can't even justify downloading of music from the Internet and I think that's something I could actually do, but have not requested directions on the process, as I feel it's a blatant rip-off of the artist. The only way I can "justify" it is re: out-of-print or extremely rare [extremely unlikely you'll ever find] material. My concern is more for Leonard than for Sony, though it probably oughta extend to them, as well. I happen to see them [with info to date, and maybe not so fairly] as the mega-corporate entity concerned with themselves......"stoking the staaaaaar-making machinery behind the popular so.....nnnnnnngggg". I sure can't claim music-industry knowledge, so appreciate your fleshing-out this issue. I suspect some others may have found it of equal interest.

I couldn't possibly agree with you more on official recordings being released on all his Live tours. Yes, Field Commander was a beginning, but since there are others, why stop there? Field Commander has gotten incredibly positive feedback from those who have purchased it [myself included].

Thanks again for taking the time to explain these things.

~ Elizabeth

[mdidier]

Elizabeth: I am sure most LC fans agree totally with your attitude about "bootlegs"; am surprised you did not call the young fellow (in another thread) about not wanting to have to pay for LCs work, if he can rip it off ..... not a worthy admirer, in my opinion. Obviously if bootleg is all that's available, then ok.

I enjoy your posts and interaction with others, especially newcomers. Thanks for caring.

[lizzytysh]

Hi mdidier ~ Just responded to you on another thread. So am I surprized and can't think of [recall] what you're referring to. Was the implication clear that he wanted to rip it off vs. legitimately pay, or was it that he wanted "bootlegs" in the same way that I want them [on the basis of my previous thinking that they were recordings of concerts that simply didn't exist elsewhere]? Hmmm. Thank you for your kinds words, as well.

~ Elizabeth

[lightning]

A reactionary attitude towards bootlegs and downloading is expressed here. Is not the artist, already mega rich, exploiting the very human emotional needs of his fans for his own profit? Turning communication into product sold for cash? Whoring out art for coporate millions?<p> Downloading music is no different than taping it off the radio or the T.V. or making a copy of a library CD. I remember when people took a 60's vow never to feed into the fortune of a rock star. Perhaps it is the capitalist system we should be objecting to, not the humble downloader or even bootlegger. They rob the rich to give to the relatively poor.

[mdidier]

Elizabeth:
from PSYCHOFISHY's post Feb 14 in the How you Found LC thread (now 8 pages long). QUOTE:........................but.. that's still not the end.... after the studio stuff i was interested for some Live stuff from cohen... cause.. he aint really touring anymore
so i posted on this forum if someone had some Cohen bootlegs for me
i also looked on some trading sites.. and i found plenty of stuff.

but... most of the people were like "sure.. i can send you cd's.. but it's 15 dollar each.."
well.. i LOVE cohen.. but i'm not going to pay 15 dollar for a cd-r
hehe
1 person said "yeah, i'll send you some bootlegs.. just gimme yer address"
and she send me bootlegs.... i loved it... and the bootlegs... i thanked her... and said i loved the shows... heh.. after that she again sent me more bootlegs...
i think she's also a member here... so.. if yer reading this.... THANKS... i still enjoy them VERY much..
UNQUOTE

I think the principle is: If you appreciate someone's work, you acquire it and show respect by paying a fair price. Ripping it off is neither appreciating nor respecting someone's work.... If it's not otherwise available, then bootlegs are ok. Most people waste a lot more than $15 on stuff they don't really "appreciate nor respect" , like buying useless presents and throw-away toys..... just my opinion.

As for Lightning: to my knowledge LC never got rich on his work, unlike rappers and other assorted 'junk' musicians. In too many cases, the junkier the music, the richer the junkee gets on the lunch money of too many 'junkors'..... just my opinion! Your attack on the capitalist system is just so much pabulum!

[tomsakic]

Difference between bootleggers and collectors: botleggers are copying concert recordings, making false CDs and selling it. I do not have any bootleg - I copy some of mine CDs with live recordings and trade it with equally number of discs using post mail. Both sides pay post taxes and the same number of CDRs... The truth is we don't pay nothing of royalties to LC, but we aren't making money on it as illegal industry does. I think that we must finally make difference between those 2 activities. Leonard knows about that and I think he even doesn't have anything against it (see his observation on that posted on Diamonds In The Mine).
Hey Sony, lets do Bootleg Series with one concert from every tour, as you do endlessly with Dylan! Every so and so we're talking here about unreleased tours but never do nothing

[tomsakic]

That's how it goes, I also started with 10 CDRs I got as gift from one nice friend from this site
And the person who asks for 15$ for CDR is thief.

[jurica]

nice said lightning.
my friend once asked me (he's a socialist, of course) why do i think artist's work has more value than any other? they couldn't live withut bread and water.
in the past, artist's work has often been underrated. but today we have completely opposite situation! they have more than any man can need, and ask for more.
i remember metallica suing thousands of their fans for downloading mp3s. but why do they need more money? have they no pleasure out of simply sharing their emotions through music?

[kyndwoman]

Jarkko-

I am privilaged to have seen L.C. preform live. I believe the year was 1968 . It was @ Trinity Collage in Hartford,Connecticut i think it was in the fall . It was a small intimate preformance he was with Charlie Danials who was playing stand-up bass. I couldnt find this concert listed on this site. I do know i was there lol an not haveing a sr. moment hee hee hee---i wonder if anyone else can recollect this concert, besides my girlfriend an myself. The crowd was gathering on the floor an the "jazz police" were hassleing students L.C stopped and in a soft voice managed to talk the students back to their seats. The final note: i remember the music an will carry that forever in my "memories."
Walk in Peace,
kyndwoman

[lizzytysh]

Hi kyndwoman ~

That scenario seems to get repeated with Leonard, the filling of the aisles and Leonard's gentle attempts to intervene. One was described in his Songs of Love and Hate songbook, and I saw another in the film, "Bird on a Wire." If that concert you attended really isn't listed here, then this will be a second Red-Letter Day for Jarkko, with another new find! September Cohen will also be interested in the details you have.

~ Elizabeth

[jarkko]

The lists of Leonard's tours were created by our friend Jim Devlin in UK
(partly based on the work done in Germany by Michael Lohse,
Gerhard Schinzel, and others) and we know that there are defects
especially in the early years. Any additional information will be
appreciated, but for the list we would need the date!
Jarkko