Songster,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
You made an excellent point when you stated "it seems everything Western is abhored while everything Eastern is never really examined".
eeey
Muffins or War
-
Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Route Map appears beneath;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/
Presented by John Waite, an award winning reporter, with degrees in English and American Literature.
YOU AND YOURS
Weekdays 12.00 - 1.00
you and yours website
FACE THE FACTS
Listen again
click.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/
Presented by John Waite, an award winning reporter, with degrees in English and American Literature.
YOU AND YOURS
Weekdays 12.00 - 1.00
you and yours website
FACE THE FACTS
Listen again
click.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
Dear Byron ~
I hope your Route Map becomes dog-eared from use. Never stop trying to enlighten people on things that ought to be in blinding floodlights of focus. The report is objective and revealing of what is happening, that is destroying people and is heartbreaking to the soul.
The phrase "two wrongs don't make a right" keeps coming to mind. Almost all countries have histories of trouble in one way or another, in varying degrees. That does not give carte-blanche permission for us or any other country to go in and "clean up" [so to speak] and command others to silence, on their criticisms of the blatant exploitation, with the justification that the country has had problems, historically, anyway.
Some would do well to give some thinking people greater credit than to presume that Leonard is their filter. Going elsewhere for spiritual seeking and learning, to another country, renowned for thousands of years for its spirituality and teachers, has nothing to do with that particular country's politics or its social/religious/spiritual/political structure.
It's relatively easy to blissfully enjoy all that the U.S. has to offer. It's only when one looks with a closer eye to what the U.S. does in/to other parts of the world, and within its own borders, that the patina is lost. I see others come from other areas of the world [Japan, China, India, Greece, the "Arab world," etc.] to take fair advantage of what democracy and capitalism have to offer financially. I see restaurants and other businesses owned and run by them. What I see that tends to be different is that one also often sees the "entire" family there ~ working, cooking, eating. I also don't see as much flagrant display of money and earnings. This says to me that they have the strength, resolve, and focus to resist the marketing that's designed to part them from their money, in the interest of the CEOs and boardrooms. It seems they have a collective goal in mind and are willing to work together toward it, for the benefit of their group [vs. self] and perhaps some relatives still in their homeland. I say "hats off to you!"
, as they are living some lessons that many of the "me"-minded would do well to learn.
I have my huge wicker basket in hand to catch all that is likely to follow here.
~ Elizabeth
I hope your Route Map becomes dog-eared from use. Never stop trying to enlighten people on things that ought to be in blinding floodlights of focus. The report is objective and revealing of what is happening, that is destroying people and is heartbreaking to the soul.
The phrase "two wrongs don't make a right" keeps coming to mind. Almost all countries have histories of trouble in one way or another, in varying degrees. That does not give carte-blanche permission for us or any other country to go in and "clean up" [so to speak] and command others to silence, on their criticisms of the blatant exploitation, with the justification that the country has had problems, historically, anyway.
Some would do well to give some thinking people greater credit than to presume that Leonard is their filter. Going elsewhere for spiritual seeking and learning, to another country, renowned for thousands of years for its spirituality and teachers, has nothing to do with that particular country's politics or its social/religious/spiritual/political structure.
It's relatively easy to blissfully enjoy all that the U.S. has to offer. It's only when one looks with a closer eye to what the U.S. does in/to other parts of the world, and within its own borders, that the patina is lost. I see others come from other areas of the world [Japan, China, India, Greece, the "Arab world," etc.] to take fair advantage of what democracy and capitalism have to offer financially. I see restaurants and other businesses owned and run by them. What I see that tends to be different is that one also often sees the "entire" family there ~ working, cooking, eating. I also don't see as much flagrant display of money and earnings. This says to me that they have the strength, resolve, and focus to resist the marketing that's designed to part them from their money, in the interest of the CEOs and boardrooms. It seems they have a collective goal in mind and are willing to work together toward it, for the benefit of their group [vs. self] and perhaps some relatives still in their homeland. I say "hats off to you!"
, as they are living some lessons that many of the "me"-minded would do well to learn. I have my huge wicker basket in hand to catch all that is likely to follow here.
~ Elizabeth
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
One of the worst countries for exploitation of its poor and oppressed, has a history of slavery, child labour, public executions for theft of a piece of bread, mass transportation of its lowest classes and total abuse of the use of power by one or two despotic leaders. Millions were starved to death in deliberate policies of keeping the masses down and denying them of one of the most basic of human rights, that of the right to life. Cruel tyrants grew fat, rich and powerful on the sweat, blood and depravations of their slave labourers. My country has an appalling history of violation of human rights.All countries have histories of trouble
The British people know all about a class (caste) system and do not need the ill-informed diatribes of contributers, who have yet to acknowledge, that they have had the common decency to spend 28 minutes listening to a man, who is probably better qualified in American Literature than themselves.
The senior manager who was interviewed by John Waite is an Indian gentleman, and it was he who refused to drink the water handed to him. It was he, who has yet to send the research report to John Waite. It was Mr Gupta who appears to be in some sort of denial about the suffering which his plant is creating.
Greed is the enemy here, not some half-cocked notion about national identities.
I hope that the site does become dog-eared. We saw enough, fully justified, outrage when the mother in Nigeria was to be publicly stoned to death. I am directing readers to a similar abuse of power by unaccountable men.
My city is a centre of attraction for tourists from all over the World. I regularly meet, talk to and exchange shared thoughts with people of many nations. The most polite, well-informed, well-educated, and thoughtful ladies and gentlemen are invariably Americans. When they say "have a nice day," I know that they mean it. Being pleasant is second nature to them and America can feel proud that its citizens are so well liked in this part of the world.
However, I despair sometimes when reading contributions to this international forum. The good that many, many Americans do, is blighted by the few words of a few of their 'friends'.........................
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
Dear Lizzytysh,
I glad that you admire the work ethic of the immigrant. I admire it too. But you seem to harbor the belief that only the immigrant from the "other areas of the world (Japan, China, India, Greece and the "Arab world"), have these wonderful qualities. Every previous immigrant group to the USA, (Poles, Slavs, Irish, Italian, etc ) have had this same experience of living and working together for the common good. But eventually the majority of the immigrants will cycle out of this ethos. This will either be good or bad depending on the family dynamics. The younger generations inevitably will become "me-minded."
But what bothers me the most in your posts, is your assumption that there is inherent moral superiority in certain peoples of the world. I have noticed that a lot of affluent (comparatively) westeners believe that wretched poverty confers a noble spirituality. (But only of course in "certain parts" of the world---no one rhapsodizes over the spirituality of the dirt-poor Appalachian.) I know from painful experience that this is not true...poverty is every bit as spiritually debilitating as prosperity...only in a different way.
As for LC's spiritual "seeking"...I'm not sure I want to go into a discussion on his latest "guru"...but his philosophy appears to be right up his alley.
Also, a lot of the posters here do use LC as filter...there are a lot of love-sick puppies (male and female) on this forum.
I glad that you admire the work ethic of the immigrant. I admire it too. But you seem to harbor the belief that only the immigrant from the "other areas of the world (Japan, China, India, Greece and the "Arab world"), have these wonderful qualities. Every previous immigrant group to the USA, (Poles, Slavs, Irish, Italian, etc ) have had this same experience of living and working together for the common good. But eventually the majority of the immigrants will cycle out of this ethos. This will either be good or bad depending on the family dynamics. The younger generations inevitably will become "me-minded."
But what bothers me the most in your posts, is your assumption that there is inherent moral superiority in certain peoples of the world. I have noticed that a lot of affluent (comparatively) westeners believe that wretched poverty confers a noble spirituality. (But only of course in "certain parts" of the world---no one rhapsodizes over the spirituality of the dirt-poor Appalachian.) I know from painful experience that this is not true...poverty is every bit as spiritually debilitating as prosperity...only in a different way.
As for LC's spiritual "seeking"...I'm not sure I want to go into a discussion on his latest "guru"...but his philosophy appears to be right up his alley.
Also, a lot of the posters here do use LC as filter...there are a lot of love-sick puppies (male and female) on this forum.
Hi Songster ~
I do not mean to discount, minimize, or invalidate the work ethic of immigrants, who preceded those I'm personally seeing. I know what you're saying is true about those, as well. People not born into "wealth" [even our poorest could be considered having a "silver spoon" when compared to some areas of the world] seem to, overall, have a greater appreciation of what resources can bring to a person's life. Some go hog-wild with it [the "Beverly Hillbillies" and the "new rich" phenomena], but overall, there seems to be a deeper appreciation.
I also agree with you about the Appalachian mountain people, and the resolve and tenacity that have come from out of those homes, and the dignity, honour, and class of those who have "made it" and not forgotten their roots. I also agree that poverty can bring about the worst in us. Yet, I also feel that the worst is more likely to surface, where expectations of what everyone "ought" to have is maximized by marketing and the societal status quo.
I'm not sure what you mean regarding my posts and general themes such as you mention. However, I don't see it as the particular areas of the world that make the difference, but the reactions/responses of those peoples to poverty that do. Oppression can create a kind of grace and acceptance that seems borne out of a necessity for survival. I'm thinking of the black people's reaction to slavery in the United States and how their deeply-spiritual roots evolved.
My mother was the daughter of two Polish immigrants, and my father was raised on a farm, and had to quit school in the 9th grade to help the family survive. He returned to high school at 19. I've seen the work ethic [often commonly referred to as the "Midwest work ethic"] up close and personal. That "the younger generations inevitably will become 'me-minded'," to me says much about our society. I've heard that some of these immigrant parents despair of what they see eroding in their own children. The adults [often young themselves, when they left their own country] had the original work ethic. My point in saying that is that, in their own country, the work ethic was still surging and they came here, bringing it with them.
Our country has been called the "melting pot" and "the greatest country in the world," yet our overriding materialism seems to be the fire, and our wealth and spending power the measure of "greatest." I often feel that there are many spiritually-bankrupt people here. We are a throwaway society, and that I don't see as a spiritual concept. We tend not to honour our commitments, from the bedroom to the world stage. Recycling only gradually takes hold with the refuse we create, from the food we eat, the items we buy. Our divorce rate is right at about 50%. One of the things I actively don't like, and that speaks to the bankruptcy, are the guilt-slogans on church marquees, trying to entice people to come inside. When I see them, I try to imagine seeing them outside a Zen or Buddhist temple, or a Muslim mosque. Fairly recently, a woman I know who travels often to Egypt recalled telling a Muslim friend, "I'll pray for you," to which he responded with confusion at such an idea. He explained to her that praying for him is not an event, but a multi-daily occurrence, that it's how they orient themselves, to themselves and the world around them, on an ongoing basis. Orient wasn't the exact word he used, but I can't recall what it was. That was the idea, however.
Even though I connected very strongly at one time with the Born-Again Christian movement and the "joyous noise unto the Lord," I still had a problem with the presumed necessity to yell ~ as well as the expectation to proselytize, at all times, everywhere. If it's the truth, a whisper is sufficient. It's not necessary to yell something into another's consciousness. Likewise, living your faith, and gentle exchanges as they naturally occur, should be testimony enough.
I think with me that some areas of the world are given a kind of credit in a "default" kind of way. I've seen the American attitude here and in other countries. I'm glad to hear what Byron is saying, yet I see so much of it otherwise, right here. There's the saying about what dogs won't do in their own back yard. I see [otherwise fairly sensible] younger, college kids go "nuts" when they go on Spring Break to other states and cities. I've seen and heard about Americans abroad approaching others with a sense of entitlement, that English be the given language, that their needs be met first because they're gracing the shores of the other country, from America. It's a kind of arrogance that doesn't bode well. I've seen visitors from other countries here who do so with a kind of humility and graciousness. Perhaps my views are somewhat skewed from all I've seen and heard. Yet, the things we do at the corporate/world politics level [and, as Byron has said, corporate greed is not restricted to a nationality or locale] seem to mirror what happens at the personal level, or vice versa.
Whose philosophy appears to be up whose alley? I couldn't tell which "his" went to which person. What is it that you know about Leonard's "latest 'guru' "? What better place to go into a discussion than here? It is Leonard's Forum.....and there's no rubber-stamping requirement on what he does.
"Lovesick puppies" ~ that phrase interests me. What do you mean when you say that? When I say that not everyone uses Leonard as a filter, I'm not saying that I consider Leonard an inadequate filter, either.
Just a note: When I used the word patina, I really should have used the word lustre. It connotes more what I mean, as patina is a genuine, time-worn process, whereas lustre tends to be more shallow, at least in the way I'm using it. Gloss would be an even better word [of course, the alliteration would be gone
], as it's more easily something externally applied.
~ Lizzytysh
Please, Songster, find some kind of way to listen to/read the transcript of the program Byron is directing people to. The details tell the story, and it's a compelling one. It's enough to justify a worldwide boycott of Coca-Cola products, when you hear in no uncertain terms how they are exploiting already-vastly-diminishing resources in other areas of the world. As Byron has already pointed out, they would not be doing this here. Taking advantage of the poor is what it's all about, and the fertilizer issue is the unspeakable insult added to injury.
I do not mean to discount, minimize, or invalidate the work ethic of immigrants, who preceded those I'm personally seeing. I know what you're saying is true about those, as well. People not born into "wealth" [even our poorest could be considered having a "silver spoon" when compared to some areas of the world] seem to, overall, have a greater appreciation of what resources can bring to a person's life. Some go hog-wild with it [the "Beverly Hillbillies" and the "new rich" phenomena], but overall, there seems to be a deeper appreciation.
I also agree with you about the Appalachian mountain people, and the resolve and tenacity that have come from out of those homes, and the dignity, honour, and class of those who have "made it" and not forgotten their roots. I also agree that poverty can bring about the worst in us. Yet, I also feel that the worst is more likely to surface, where expectations of what everyone "ought" to have is maximized by marketing and the societal status quo.
I'm not sure what you mean regarding my posts and general themes such as you mention. However, I don't see it as the particular areas of the world that make the difference, but the reactions/responses of those peoples to poverty that do. Oppression can create a kind of grace and acceptance that seems borne out of a necessity for survival. I'm thinking of the black people's reaction to slavery in the United States and how their deeply-spiritual roots evolved.
My mother was the daughter of two Polish immigrants, and my father was raised on a farm, and had to quit school in the 9th grade to help the family survive. He returned to high school at 19. I've seen the work ethic [often commonly referred to as the "Midwest work ethic"] up close and personal. That "the younger generations inevitably will become 'me-minded'," to me says much about our society. I've heard that some of these immigrant parents despair of what they see eroding in their own children. The adults [often young themselves, when they left their own country] had the original work ethic. My point in saying that is that, in their own country, the work ethic was still surging and they came here, bringing it with them.
Our country has been called the "melting pot" and "the greatest country in the world," yet our overriding materialism seems to be the fire, and our wealth and spending power the measure of "greatest." I often feel that there are many spiritually-bankrupt people here. We are a throwaway society, and that I don't see as a spiritual concept. We tend not to honour our commitments, from the bedroom to the world stage. Recycling only gradually takes hold with the refuse we create, from the food we eat, the items we buy. Our divorce rate is right at about 50%. One of the things I actively don't like, and that speaks to the bankruptcy, are the guilt-slogans on church marquees, trying to entice people to come inside. When I see them, I try to imagine seeing them outside a Zen or Buddhist temple, or a Muslim mosque. Fairly recently, a woman I know who travels often to Egypt recalled telling a Muslim friend, "I'll pray for you," to which he responded with confusion at such an idea. He explained to her that praying for him is not an event, but a multi-daily occurrence, that it's how they orient themselves, to themselves and the world around them, on an ongoing basis. Orient wasn't the exact word he used, but I can't recall what it was. That was the idea, however.
Even though I connected very strongly at one time with the Born-Again Christian movement and the "joyous noise unto the Lord," I still had a problem with the presumed necessity to yell ~ as well as the expectation to proselytize, at all times, everywhere. If it's the truth, a whisper is sufficient. It's not necessary to yell something into another's consciousness. Likewise, living your faith, and gentle exchanges as they naturally occur, should be testimony enough.
I think with me that some areas of the world are given a kind of credit in a "default" kind of way. I've seen the American attitude here and in other countries. I'm glad to hear what Byron is saying, yet I see so much of it otherwise, right here. There's the saying about what dogs won't do in their own back yard. I see [otherwise fairly sensible] younger, college kids go "nuts" when they go on Spring Break to other states and cities. I've seen and heard about Americans abroad approaching others with a sense of entitlement, that English be the given language, that their needs be met first because they're gracing the shores of the other country, from America. It's a kind of arrogance that doesn't bode well. I've seen visitors from other countries here who do so with a kind of humility and graciousness. Perhaps my views are somewhat skewed from all I've seen and heard. Yet, the things we do at the corporate/world politics level [and, as Byron has said, corporate greed is not restricted to a nationality or locale] seem to mirror what happens at the personal level, or vice versa.
Whose philosophy appears to be up whose alley? I couldn't tell which "his" went to which person. What is it that you know about Leonard's "latest 'guru' "? What better place to go into a discussion than here? It is Leonard's Forum.....and there's no rubber-stamping requirement on what he does.
"Lovesick puppies" ~ that phrase interests me. What do you mean when you say that? When I say that not everyone uses Leonard as a filter, I'm not saying that I consider Leonard an inadequate filter, either.
Just a note: When I used the word patina, I really should have used the word lustre. It connotes more what I mean, as patina is a genuine, time-worn process, whereas lustre tends to be more shallow, at least in the way I'm using it. Gloss would be an even better word [of course, the alliteration would be gone
], as it's more easily something externally applied.~ Lizzytysh
Please, Songster, find some kind of way to listen to/read the transcript of the program Byron is directing people to. The details tell the story, and it's a compelling one. It's enough to justify a worldwide boycott of Coca-Cola products, when you hear in no uncertain terms how they are exploiting already-vastly-diminishing resources in other areas of the world. As Byron has already pointed out, they would not be doing this here. Taking advantage of the poor is what it's all about, and the fertilizer issue is the unspeakable insult added to injury.
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tom.d.stiller
- Posts: 1213
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
- Location: ... between the lines ...
- Contact:
This - please remember - is not a question of East or West...
The real issue is the predominance of Company interests over humanity.
The Brits have done their part in relentless exploitation of colonies, no doubt about it. But this doesn't justify anybody to do the same, or to top it...
And: i I abhor the "caste system" - but don't blame it for the colonialism...
Tom
The real issue is the predominance of Company interests over humanity.
The Brits have done their part in relentless exploitation of colonies, no doubt about it. But this doesn't justify anybody to do the same, or to top it...
And: i I abhor the "caste system" - but don't blame it for the colonialism...
Tom
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Last edited by Byron on Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
-
Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Byron wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
-
Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
FOX NEWS
http://www.indolink.com/News/Business_E ... 202936.php
No need to take 28 minutes to listen to the BBC Radio 4 Broadcast.
This is a direct link to the American Fox News site, with a page of disturbing facts for Americans to read in America, given by an American News Company and recognised as a genuine piece of journalism, otherwise they would not publish it for fear of law suits from Coca Cola.
In other words, Americans can find the Truth on their very own domestic media without even going to the BBC. The Truth is the same wherever you find it.
The Media work closely together on many issues. This is just one of many.
http://www.indolink.com/News/Business_E ... 202936.php
No need to take 28 minutes to listen to the BBC Radio 4 Broadcast.
This is a direct link to the American Fox News site, with a page of disturbing facts for Americans to read in America, given by an American News Company and recognised as a genuine piece of journalism, otherwise they would not publish it for fear of law suits from Coca Cola.
In other words, Americans can find the Truth on their very own domestic media without even going to the BBC. The Truth is the same wherever you find it.
The Media work closely together on many issues. This is just one of many.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.