The word and the voice of God

[~greg]

Many strong men thrived
Though they boasted solitude
God was at their side
...
Many weak men lied
they came to God in secret
and though they left him nourished
they would not say who healed

-LC

Were I to have a "concept of 'God'", - which I do not,
- then I would lie about it.

And I would never talk about it in public.

~~
Somebody pointed out once that, after Freud, people were
perfectly willing to discuss their most intiment of sexual details
in public - peverversions even, - while they were unwilling
to talk about moments of tenderness.

~~

If I discuss something in public, then I am not "serious" about it.

What I don't discuss, I am serious about.

~~~~~~~~~~

You have added nothing to the actual discussion

But I'm not half way through.

stop the accusations and immature personal attacks
and lets discuss the topic at hand – whether that be Leonard’s music
or God in general.

I am glad that you said it, not me.

So, it's got to be one or the other, again.
Door #1, or door #2.
It's a very wide range in any case.

But I have to go back a bit to what this
"whether that be ... or God in general"
reminds me of.

Hmmm, You peaked my interest Greg.
To criticize is to evaluate the merits and faults of the given topic at hand.
Do you hold this belief ("Critics are evil") to be true for 'all topics'
or just in relation to what you believe to be 'God' ?

I did read your first post
and the only words that interested me enough to comment on,
I did comment on.

It is interesting to me that you found my words to you to be aggressive
- If I find something that I do not agree with - I question it - that is all.

However that wasn't what you said.
You didn't say that you found anything you disagreed with.
You didn't even hint at what it was, if anything.

And you haven't told me yet what it was.
But now I know that it wasn't anything. You were lying.
What you were really pissed at wasn't something that you disagreed with.
What you were really pissed at is that in your view I haven't "added nothing to the actual discussion",
Meaning that I haven't yet defined for you what I "believe to be 'God'".
Thus denying you the pleasure of belittling it.

~~

What you did say, first of all, was that I

peaked your interest

.
And then later you didn't deny that you had been aggressive.
What you did say, then, was that

It is interesting to me that you found my words to you to be aggressive

And those kinds of things are what's called passive aggressive.
(Which was half of the agression I saw in you.)

One thing I can guarantee you is that you would be the last one to see it in yourself.

~~

But back now to your limiting of choices.

You defined what I had to mean by "To criticize" -

To criticize is to evaluate the merits and faults of the given topic at hand.

("The given topic at hand" - was the key. But I didn't realize that at first.)

And then you asked me a question.

Do you hold this belief ("Critics are evil") to be true for 'all topics'
or just in relation to what you believe to be 'God'

Two choices -- which confused me no end.

On the one hand you didn't seem to know what I meant by "critics are evil".
But you didn't ask me what I meant.

The first thing you did do was to limit what I was allowed to mean by "to criticize",
-- to something that I didn't mean at all.

And then the next thing you did was to limit what you would allow me
to apply the expression "critics are evil" to
- to just two things: -
either

'all topics'

or else

just in relation to what you believe to be 'God'

Neither of which I meant.

( Presumably by "all topics" you were asking if I meant "all critics are evil".
But I couldn't make heads or tails of what possible relation you had mind between
"critics are evil" on the one hand, and what I believe to be 'God' on the other!
"The topic at hand", - of course, was the key.)

However my point here is that those were what's called "leading questions",
(or a "leading definition" followed by a leading question.)

And those kinds of things are objectionable and highly aggressive
tactics that lawyers sometimes try to get away with.

And that was the other part of the aggression I sensed in you.

~~

"The topic at hand" - is the key.

lets discuss the topic at hand – whether that be Leonard’s music
or God in general.

You are pissed that, in your view, I don't stick to your topic.
The topic that you wanted to get into, as soon as propriety allowed,
after you titled your thread "The word and the voice of God",
and after you began it by talking about Leonad Cohen.

But do try to remember how this thread actually did begin: --

Hello all... I picked up my first Leonard Cohen - "The Essential Leonard Cohen" about three weeks ago. I wish I would have discovered his music sooner - Beautiful, Biblical - Brilliant!

- John
johnlakeart.com
"There is a crack, a crack in everything... that's how the light gets in" - Leonard Cohen[[q

Hello, John, nice to have you here. You have a whole world to explore ... enjoy! Try to get Field Commander Cohen, Tour of 1979. I love his voice on that album and the songs are great as well.

yes John essential is essential
Last edited by jimbo on Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thank ya Kindly Gerrida and Jimbo...

- simply amazing musical compositions. I have a new favorite artist now... I'll be picking up everything I can find.
"There is a crack, a crack in everything... that's how the light gets in" - Leonard Cohen

John -

Welcome! Check Marie Mazur's Speaking Cohen site also. Between the Files and 'Speaking', you should have plenty of information for your quest.

michael

Thank you Michael - I'll check out the site.
"There is a crack, a crack in everything... that's how the light gets in" - Leonard Cohen

Just checking in... Still listening to 'The Essential Leonard Cohen'. I've lost track - BUT - I believe I have listened around 10 times now. The latest yesterday wile taking a little trip - Timeless! Light of The Father.... not of any one religion or non-religion But.. the one and only God.
"There is a crack, a crack in everything... that's how the light gets in" - Leonard Cohen

Hi John
And welcome to the club! Trying to imagine what it would be like to have just discovered Leonard cohen. I guess I would wonder how I could have missed him all these years. A little like a spiritual awakening I should imagine. I do remember the first time--my brother returned with a little casette tape entitled Songs from a Room. First he played the tape, and then he played some songs on his guitar, sounding a lot like leonard. My siblings and I literally fell on the floor laughing at Bird on a wire. Laughing and loving it.
I still feel like that when I hear a new cd by him. Maybe not as wild--after all its been 40 years or so. But some things just reach you on a certain level. The voice of God? amen.

Hi St Theresa... thank you for the welcome and the story. The music is the most beautiful, the most soothing I have ever heard - I can't imagine ever being tired of it - and - I can't wait to pick up his other albums. I'm not a strongly religious person - I have no true affiliation... but - I am a spiritual person and when I hear the words and music I feel a very strong connection to the spiritual... not that I believe Leonard Cohen to be thee 'God' of Course... And I'm sure that Leonard would scoff at such an idea - BUT I do believe God is 'Everything' - there is nothing outside - so - in my belief system Leonard is definitely 'part' of God and maybe a little closer to the Understanding/ Knowledge than most - a true prophet - whether he realizes this or not. If I'm lucky enough for his 2008 tour to stop near New Jersey.. I'll be one of the first in line.
"There is a crack, a crack in everything... that's how the light gets in" - Leonard Cohen

And that's where it ended.
Or where it turned, from Leonard Cohen, as a god-like singer-song-writer,
- into your concept of 'God' topic.

Because the next post was Casey Butler's first post.
And all further mention of Leonard Cohen was thereafter reduced to infinitesimal tokens.

So I am glad that you said:

lets discuss the topic at hand – whether that be Leonard’s music
or God in general.

Leonard Cohen was what my first posts in this thread were about,
-whether you saw that or not.

And I said back then that I don't have a concept of 'God'.
I am a-theoretic.

But I get the feeling that you are trying to convince people - perhaps even me
- that you have a superior concept of 'God' - not limited in the ways
other people's concepts of 'God' are limit. Which I thinks is very doubtful.
But you are proselytizing it just as much as Casey is proselytizing his
concept of 'God'. A superficial impression would be that you are merely
feeding the troll, because, you believe, your concept of 'God' is
less traditional and cultic than Casey's is. But in fact you are both
trolls. Although this of course depends on the definition of troll,
which we certainly don't share.

To troll is to evaluate the merits and faults of the given topic at hand.

- whenever the "given topic at hand"... is 'God'.

But I won't argue that.

A point which I may argue, later, is that you are, in fact,
a fundamentalist in a well defined tradition,
just as much as Casey is .

Which of course depends on the definition of fundamentalist.
Which we don't share.

[~greg]

btw, Greg, yes you can fight fire with smoke. This is the essence of CO2 fire suppression.

True.
But that's called snuffing.
And it's the lowest way of killing.

[Manna]

Were I to have a "concept of 'God'", - which I do not,
- then I would lie about it.

Aha! So you DO have a "concept of 'God'", - you just aren't willing to talk about it.
I don't mind.

(But I'm not driving to Chicago
in a van
with my friend.)

[Myra]

Ahhhh…
I bet that feels better now doesn’t it Greg.

Let me tell you why I was mean to Casey and then why I felt bad about it.

First – I didn’t like him very much (sorry Casey) he just really, really bugged me. Yes – I know I didn’t have to read what he was writing but it’s like driving by an accident, as much as you don’t want to look you do. He was like this big rock sitting on a cliffs edge just waiting for a push. So I went over to have a closer look, and the rock talking about star trek and being a rock, it didn’t seem to be making a great deal of sense.
What could I do – I just rocked it a little to get an idea of its weight, with the plan of giving it a good shove.

Here’s where things went wrong – I had this thought – what if Casey wasn’t Casey – what if it someone that I knew (ahh my conscience). What if it was someone that I knew and they got bumped when I pushed them – BLAH .
What if Casey was somebody real – what if he got hurt (I should tell you I had intended to take it much further) BLAH BLAH
Really what harm was he doing BLAH BLAH BLAH
And when I actually communicated with him he even seemed nice BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH – fun gone – and damn it I think I might even like the guy.
I didn’t feel bad about what I did – I felt bad about what I was thinking about doing.

You on the other hand Greg, seem much more tree like, then rock like.

The "scientific method" is the accumulation of objective observations
concerning the sorts of things that tend to contaminate objective observations
and make them less objective. Namely things like evaluations, expectations,
prejudices, parochialisms, nepotisms, laziness, love, hope, and charity,
and payola, and polenta, and putang, and pernod, etc, etc, etc, period.
And then taking whatever steps are necessary, such as double-blind
experiments, in order to avoid that kind of contamination.

Is that what the scientific method means? My eyes are starring at you in awe as you have so cleverly and clearly explained such a complicated process. Let me try again with a new experiment.

Hypothesis - being sarcastic to someone who seems to be patronizing you could be fun.

Okay now what did you say I should do? Oh yes accumulate objective observations.

Methods for data collection

1. I shall compile an un-biased questioner for myself to find out what my general trends are.

2. I shall carry around with me a simple ABC (Antecedent – Behaviour – Consequence) chart and record any incidents of sarcasm as defined by the below operational definition.

3. When an incident occurs, I shall also fill out an Ilation, Mirth and Bliss Ranking Assessment tool (I spelled the whole words in case you were confused by it’s acronym) and graph the responses.

I know – you think I should do a proper functional Analysis, but really I’m to f~cking lazy.

Once I have collected baseline data I shall purposely put myself in environments in which people will be likely to make patronizing comments to me. This won’t be difficult as I work with mostly men (yes that’s sexist) and I’m a bit flighty by nature (no I’m not doing another operational definition).

Now the double blind study might be difficult for me as my sample size is small – consisting of only me. Perhaps if I got intoxicated enough I would forget about the experiment – there may be an issue with recording data though.


*Operational Definition for Sarcastic : "a negative comment or insult said with positive words"; for example when someone says ‘as you have so cleverly and clearly explained’.


Okay, better run I have do ABC chart as well as fill out a questioner.


By the way Putang?
I googled - now I have something useful to say if I ever travel to the Philippines, thanks.

[Casey Butler]

Yes.... I bothered to read the verses. And.. I knew that what I posted were not the actual verses - but - interpretations of the verses. And the full verses that you posted read exactly as the interpretations I initially posted. Meaning that, above all, Disbelievers, Unbelievers (Like Myself) of your God are in for one Hell of a painful ride when they leave this plane of existence.

I think you can rest assured that the "painful ride" is going on right now. "When they said repent, repent, I wonder what they meant". Well, they meant that if we don't we'll end up like we are now.

Which is not so bad, really, Hell is great, in fact, because it could have taken much much longer to get here...

But it's complicated to explain because nobody's wrong and nobody's right but all we know is blaming somebody for what goes wrong.

But we'll get past that too.

This is the only plane of existence there is. Didn't you hear Jesus when He said:

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [KJV-Bible - Matthew 16:18-19]

Do you hear what that means?

World War II and the Holocaust were loosed in heaven as well as earth, for example, meaning earth is our heaven. It always has been, if you bother reading it yourself instead of letting the flood decide for you what it's all about.

It's been quite a flood though.

But the Man meant what He said.

-------------------

For ~greg... Yeah, I'm a radical fundementalist Human Being, I'm radical fundementalist Atheist and radical fundemenatlist Agnostic, a radical fundementalist Zealot Jew and radical fundementalist Muslim, a radical fundementalist Buddhist and a radical fundementalist Catholic and a radical fundementalist Baptist and a radical fundemental Latter Day Saint and a radical fundementalist Christian Scientist and a radical fundementalist Scientologist and a radical fundementalist New Ager and a radical fundementalist Hindu and I'm radical fundementalist Christian Orthodox Everything...

A fundementalist... yes...

But I'm not even an "order". I don't want you to be anything other than you are now.

I'm just so happy with everything everybody already is...

Casey

[john.m.lake]

Morning Greg….

Your case against me has been stated clearly my friend.. You believe that I came to this site specifically to discuss my views on God – that I really could care less about Leonard . That is not the case - BUT – I was happy that Casey wanted to discuss ‘God’ on this thread – I always enjoy testing my belief system in a debate.

It appears to me that in your view ‘God’ is not allowed to be discussed in a Leonard Cohen forum - unless – Leonard himself is brought up in every post. This appears to be a personal issue and not an issue for the Moderators here. But… for you, from now on, if I continue to post in this forum I will post lyrics to parts of Leonard’s songs which I love… I kinda like that idea : )

I find it very strange that someone that has “No concept in God” would be a fan of Leonard Cohen and his music – for his music is about that very thing. Are you really a fan Greg.. or a troll waiting to pounce when you find others that you do not like and don’t agree with?

The rest of your post was you analyzing me – yet again – I guess I should feel honored that you took the time. BUT… I am the best judge of myself – so – be careful how far you are willing to go with this – as far as my mind goes – you were defeated before you began. To this point you have been incorrect with every accusation hurled in my direction.

You again brought up that I dared question your words “Critics are Evil” in a previous post. That was some sweeping statement by you – and you were clearly angry in your rebuttal that I challenged you on it. You state that you still have no idea what I disagreed with.. come on Greg – I disagreed with the very words… I already explained this to you as clearly as I can. I see that you hold on to things way past their expiration date – that is very unhealthy for your well being.

In fact, I’m noticing anger in a lot of your posts, angry that I dare question what you say, angry that I dare discuss God on a Leonard Cohen forum. In fact, I am finding it difficult to counter your words with logic and reason – for your words consist only of conspiracy and accusations. But… I still wish you well.. for my belief system is ingrained in my psyche – and Peace, Love, Forgiveness and Kindness are as a part of me as my eyes or my ears.


If it be your will
If there is a choice
Let the rivers fill
Let the hills rejoice
Let your mercy spill
On all these burning hearts in hell
If it be your will
To make us well

And draw us near
And bind us tight
All your children here
In their rags of light
In our rags of light
All dressed to kill
And end this night
If it be your will

If it be your will.

[john.m.lake]

Casey: I think you can rest assured that the "painful ride" is going on right now. "When they said repent, repent, I wonder what they meant". Well, they meant that if we don't we'll end up like we are now.

Which is not so bad, really, Hell is great, in fact, because it could have taken much much longer to get here...

But it's complicated to explain because nobody's wrong and nobody's right but all we know is blaming somebody for what goes wrong.

But we'll get past that too.

This is the only plane of existence there is. Didn't you hear Jesus when He said:

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [KJV-Bible - Matthew 16:18-19]

Do you hear what that means?

World War II and the Holocaust were loosed in heaven as well as earth, for example, meaning earth is our heaven. It always has been, if you bother reading it yourself instead of letting the flood decide for you what it's all about.

It's been quite a flood though.

But the Man meant what He said.

Morning Casey....

I feel we are kindred spirits and I hope our discussion continues BUT for now I just say...

Have a great weekend! : )

[Manna]

I have been assuming Casey was female, but others have been referring to Casey as he and him. I wonder what made us assign Casey his/her sex.

Several girls embraced me
then I was embraced by men...

[John Etherington]

Hi Manna,

Of course, some have the same dilemma with God!

All good things, John E

[Casey Butler]

I wonder what made us assign Casey his/her sex.

I'm male, but I have been through the Drunkard's Gender-Emancipation process, as described here: http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/drunkard.html

I didn't know that's what I'd been through until I read that, though. Thanks for confirming the "doctor's" diagnosis, Manna, it's going to be an epidemic soon, looks like.

If it got to me it can get to anybody.

Thanks for getting it to me...

Thanks.

Casey

[Casey Butler]

Please let me try to show you how you might get beyond this literal interpretation of the prophet's writings in all of these scriptures...

The biggest barrier is the language used. It's why I never could read the prophets until I was "drowning", I mean all this blood and gore and sacrifice and burning etc... It's oppressive. It's dark. It's like Oliver Stone's "Natural Born Killers". People won't get the message unless they see the movie (but how will the people who need to know message ever go see a movie that's so dark and oppressive?).

Well, everybody needs to get by the darkness to get to the message, because that darkness is just so much fluff... it's just imagery and metaphor.

Like if we remember that nobody really died in "Natural Born Killers", rather the movie was the director's chosen vehicle for a getting a message through, we can manage to sit through the movie and get the message...

Especially since it has Leonard Cohen's voice to occasionally break up the monotony of violence.

So it is the "dark sentence" writing style of the prophets, it's a vehicle for the message, a vehicle that down through the centuries would be scrupulously copied and cared for by "honored scribes" and priests and rabbis and preachers until we're all, the religious and non-religious among us alike, ready to actually hear the message.

And note that during these centuries of deafness on our part, the darkness in the prophetic style was used to put the fear of God into despots, kings, prime ministers, and presidents as we've run through the gammut of every form of government articulated by Aristotle as nessessary to govern self-aware human beings.

I found the following drawing of the woman Leonard Cohen sings about most of the time, from Suzanne to "Oh love aren't you tired yet..."

Take a look if you haven't seen it: http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/dearroshi.html

I'd like to discuss that "woman", it might help some get by the dark stuff.

Where we are according to David's Secret Chord:

"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion."

"We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof."

"For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion."

"How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land?"

"If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning."

"If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy."

"Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof."

"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us."

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." [KJV-Bible - Psalms 137:1-9]

Contrary to appearances, it's a good thing, dashing the little ones of the Daughter of Babylon against the stones...

Anybody wanna know why? :-)

I can't teach you anything, but knowing the workings of the vechicle can.

Casey

[john.m.lake]

Hi Casey....

I understand all that you have said from your first post.. and I hope you have understood what I have said... for, the truth is truly a combination of Everything.. God is truly a combination of Everything. We are just taking slightly different paths on our journeys my friend.

When I said in a previous post - "I hold as a truth that you need not read 'ONE WORD' of 'any' holy book ever written in order to understand GOD the TRUTH or ENLIGHTENMENT - for you are part of God - and you share in a Miracle that needs no written words to see the blaze of light." I was not saying that the holy books should not be read - if they help you understand and give you strength and courage and compassion and wisdom and kindness and love and peace and forgiveness - then - read them and cherish them and keep them open and shout their words to the world.

May the rain fall down upon us from the heavens ... and cleanse our souls for the ride... for the journey appears to be a long one... even if it is all over in the blink of the eye .


"And everybody knows that you're in trouble
Everybody knows what you've been through
From the bloody cross on top of Calvary
To the beach of Malibu
Everybody knows it's coming apart
Take one last look at this Sacred Heart
Before it blows"

[Casey Butler]

"I hold as a truth that you need not read 'ONE WORD' of 'any' holy book ever written in order to understand GOD the TRUTH or ENLIGHTENMENT - for you are part of God - and you share in a Miracle that needs no written words to see the blaze of light."

If that were true, I could shut up. Leonard Cohen could shut up. Osama bin Laden could shut up. Unfortunately, nothing could be more untrue. No happy thought invented by man could be better designed than yours above to lead us blindly into nuclear holocaust.

Currently the books direct the combined Spirits of our common Witnesses of God. The books are humanity's testimony of God. They are visible, tangible proof of the Love of God that we can share with one another as proof of God, as proof of our already existing Unified Heart.

I'm not saying you can't choose ignorance of them over knowledge of them, I'm not even saying that choosing ignorance of them is not "God's will" for anybody or even everybody for the time to come. Who am I to make judgments regarding the merits of ignorance...

Jesus said to the Pharisees: "If ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless." [KJV-Bible - Matthew 12:7]

Today I stand here telling everybody the exact same thing in plain English, and I'm telling you the truth, and I'm not lying.

Muslims, with all of their "foreign" traditions, with their polygamy, their "oppression of women", their arranged marriages with underage children, with all of their poor, with all of their Imams, all of their radicals, all of their "terrorists" - Muslims are part of God too, directed and inspired by God Himself through the Qur'an. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc... all of their traditions and customs are of the same Source, directed and inspired by God Himself through the various scriptures each religion sees Him in.

As all of the Pharisees created by Jesus around the globe today, of whatever religion, whatever denomination, as these disciples of Christ take up their crosses and sacrifice themselves for you, spilling real and Spiritual blood for you that goes well beyond a thousand kisses deep...

I say: If you had known what this means, "I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings", you would not condemn the guiltless.

You would not choose ignorance over knowledge of these books, knowledge paid for with so much blood.

Casey

[john.m.lake]

Casey: If that were true, I could shut up. Leonard Cohen could shut up. Osama bin Laden could shut up. Unfortunately, nothing could be more untrue. No happy thought invented by man could be better designed than yours above to lead us blindly into nuclear holocaust.

Currently the books direct the combined Spirits of our common Witnesses of God. The books are humanity's testimony of God. They are visible, tangible proof of the Love of God that we can share with one another as proof of God, as proof of our already existing Unified Heart.

I'm not saying you can't choose ignorance of them over knowledge of them, I'm not even saying that choosing ignorance of them is not "God's will" for anybody or even everybody for the time to come. Who am I to make judgments regarding the merits of ignorance...

Jesus said to the Pharisees: "If ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless." [KJV-Bible - Matthew 12:7]

Today I stand here telling everybody the exact same thing in plain English, and I'm telling you the truth, and I'm not lying.

Muslims, with all of their "foreign" traditions, with their polygamy, their "oppression of women", their arranged marriages with underage children, with all of their poor, with all of their Imams, all of their radicals, all of their "terrorists" - Muslims are part of God too, directed and inspired by God Himself through the Qur'an. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc... all of their traditions and customs are of the same Source, directed and inspired by God Himself through the various scriptures each religion sees Him in.

As all of the Pharisees created by Jesus around the globe today, of whatever religion, whatever denomination, as these disciples of Christ take up their crosses and sacrifice themselves for you, spilling real and Spiritual blood for you that goes well beyond a thousand kisses deep...

I say: If you had known what this means, "I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings", you would not condemn the guiltless.

You would not choose ignorance over knowledge of these books, knowledge paid for with so much blood.

Casey

And thus our debate ends my friend. I have pretty much discussed all of my views on God, Religion, Life, Birth and Death with you - and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for engaging in dialogue with me here. Our differences remain - as well they should - we were never going to change each others minds : )

These are our major discrepancies - as I hold these statements as fact - and - you believe they could not be further from the truth:

God is 'perfect' because God is 'Everything' - BUT - every bit and piece.. if separated.. is not perfect. Where we do not agree is that you believe Allah/ Yahweh to be in fact thee 'God' - while - I believe Allah/ Yahweh to be 'part' of God - no more.

I hold as a truth that you need not read 'ONE WORD' of 'any' holy book ever written in order to understand GOD the TRUTH or ENLIGHTENMENT - for you are part of God - and you share in a Miracle that needs no written words to see the blaze of light.

You believe the holy books must be read for us to understand God - I believe that there is a much deeper understanding of God to be found by just looking inward - for you are part of God.

You do not trust in your own inner knowledge and understanding - you place the words of others above your own - the words of very fallible prophets thru out recorded history. I say.. put no one's words above your own inner knowledge and understanding...

But - we are just starting to go in circles now. I'm going on what you could call a type of Sabbatical soon (in several weeks) and won't have access to a PC for a few months - BUT - I'll keep checking this site while I can to see where it goes.... I might post again if I am challenged with something new.

Take care of yourself Casey!!

"It's coming from the sorrow in the street,
the holy places where the races meet;
from the homicidal bitchin'
that goes down in every kitchen
to determine who will serve and who will eat.
From the wells of disappointment
where the women kneel to pray
for the grace of God in the desert here
and the desert far away:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A."

[Casey Butler]

You do not trust in your own inner knowledge and understanding...

Actually my inner knowledge and understanding came from the books - LONG before I read them... Where did your inner knowledge and understanding come from, John?

Might I suggest yours may be a little incomplete... that it may be based on hearsay and mystic renderings of the poets... and that you will trust it better if you know what the witnesses are trying to testify to and what the poets are trying to write about?

Just a suggestion... not a criticism.

Again, I'm not a liar (edited to add: "on my good days, well... most of the time"). Please don't mischaractarize what I'm saying, for I truly do trust my own inner knowledge and understanding.

I've just chosen not to put limits on it.

Casey