What Does A Baby Know

[lazariuk]

Hi Jack,

Maybe what the old Indian man meant was that what people "knew" was the unquestioned
stuff, some of which, is worthy of thinking about or rethinking?

Well I have the inside scoop on what the old indian man, the chief elder, the most revered man of his community meant, because he told me. He also told me that hardly anyone in his community ever listens to him. They give him the highest place of honor, they get him to to preside over all the ceremonies, they say how much he is respected, they guard him from the outside world, they brag about him but they don't listen to him.

I was told before I went there that people would be distrustful of me, especially the elders. I was seen as a business and technology expert to the people telling me this, but when I got there I was in for a big surprise. I did something that caused my friend and a lot of the younger people there to laugh at me, laughter that they couldn't control. They eventually became distrustful of me but the elders weren't.

I was astounded by how much this chief elder was willing to say. He told me the most intimate details of his life, of the mistakes he had made along the way, of the problems that he had had in his marriage, of his relationship with his children and even what he had said to God in his prayers.

At the time in his life when he felt that he was most defeated, when he felt like he was caught in a flood that he had no control over, when everything that he thought he knew was failing him he turned to God, put his finger against his head, and said "You gave me this thing, teach me how to use it."

[Manna]

usually, when you know too much, you end up sleeping with the fishes.

[lazariuk]

usually, when you know too much, you end up sleeping with the fishes.

One of my favorite poems is called "How little I know" here is an excerpt:

It is understood
That if you know that I know
How to say it ``correctly''
(The exact meaning of which
I have not yet learned)
Then I am entitled to say it
All incorrectly
Which once in a rare while
Will make you laugh.
And I love you so much
Whenever you laugh.
But I haven't learned yet
What love may be
But I love to love
And love being loved
And that is a whole lot
Of unlearnedness.
I haven't learned yet
What laughter is
But a mother told me
How surprised was she
When an undergraduate first
Belly laughed in her
Alma mater
Dormitory. .....Bucky

[lizzytysh]

Two good stories, Manna. The first one's very interesting. It didn't seem to get quite so far as his viewing the lake from a spiritual perspective, but rather not having the 'burning' questions for information about it that you had, but more of a dismissive, complacent attitude about them, as he knew with the nature of the attitude of the people on the reservation about outsiders would leave them unanswered, anyway. I wonder if that information could come through one of them if they would want to know all of those answers.

The second one is beautiful, really symbolic of HOW [pun unintended, but immediately noticed] much music can and often does connect people in a meaningful way, despite their differences and varying attitudes. What this man did in coming to your house, though, was purely exceptional. As an aside, can you just tell us more about how it went, what they played, how long, anything said or shared?

Steven ~ I like your idea on what this means, too; and I had another thought this morning after I woke up, with regard to the environment... that we know much, but we think too little. We know how to make and do all these things, but we think too little about their ultimate impact on each other and our world. Back to my other line of thinking on it, we know too much by memorization, but we think too little on our own about the meaning of life and our place in the world with the animals and nature, which means spiritual and philosophical thinking rather than just compilations of facts.

daka ~ I'll read your posting later. Don't have time at the moment. Trying to scan the Forum and then watch the sunrise [metaphor] and then on with my day, which has some time constraints attached.

Whoops. Tried to Submit and see that you've commented to Manna and shared a poem, Jack. I'll read that later, too.


~ Lizzy

[Steven]

Hi Jack,

I know you have the "inside scoop" (reason I used both "Maybe" and a question mark).
Probably you, Lizzy and I are using different words to more or less express the
same thing, though. In traditional cultures tainted by "business and technology"
and what comes along with it, leaders can take on a figurehead role, where
people might still "honor" them, but with deeper attachments to them no
longer present. You communicated the unsettlement of the elder well.
He turned to source (God), which may have been a deeper kind of "thinking," perhaps
the kind that he'd welcome for his community, as well. I'm not surprised that he
was willing to say so much to you, as he probably intuited or learned of your ability
to be a good listener.

[lazariuk]

Hi Jack,

I know you have the "inside scoop" (reason I used both "Maybe" and a question mark).
Probably you, Lizzy and I are using different words to more or less express the
same thing, though.

Hi Steven
I think you expressed yourself very well and I wrote what I did to let you know that I was agreeing with you.

[Manna]

It is admittedly a little nerve-wracking initially to experience the 'absence' of mental activity, mental excitement, plans, etc.

I wonder how a MRI brain scan of one is such a state would compare and contrast with one who is engaged in the potentially nerve wracking experience of everyday. (Remembering this makes me understand how Jack gets to call his sleeve his arm.)

Well, I have a little bit of knowledge of such a thing. One thing a baby has to learn is the perimeter of his control, and the answer is generally his own body. The baby learns where he ends and the rest of the world begins. * (see next post.)

They do have a compilation of brain scans of meditating Buddhists, studying Jews, praying Christians, etc. I have seen it, though I don't know where. (I get 3 M-1 devil points for my own laziness regarding looking it up to give you the link.) The one thing they all have in common is that the area of the brain which recognizes that self-perimeter slows way down. Some call it God, others call it Oneness, others call nothingness. But it looks like pretty much the same thing in the brain scan - it looks like a lack of a certain thought. That doesn't mean all the other thoughtlings go away too. I don't know if that is possible, nor to what extent. But I too have experienced the letting go of my perimeter. It is accompanied by what I can describe as wide field vertigo, but I wouldn't call it uncomfortable, and I sure as heck wouldn't call myself enlightened.

[Manna]

*

When my daughter was born, she couldn't focus her eyes. It isn't something a newborn has learned yet. I remember playing with her one day with some kleenexes. She was lying on her back on my bed. I took a kleenex, wadded it up and help it above her. I said, "wooooo, up here," and I wiggled it, then I dropped it on her face. She blinked after it hit her, quite a while after it hit her. I did it again and again, picked up the kleenex, help it above her, said, "wooooo," and dropped it on her. After a few times, she looked up when I said woooo. And a few times later, she blinked just as it touched her face. Gold star, lesson learned.

This is more about depth perception than knowing where she stops and 'else' begins, but I don't have a story for that lesson, this is as close as I can get.

[lazariuk]

This is more about depth perception than knowing where she stops and 'else' begins, but I don't have a story for that lesson, this is as close as I can get.

Mary Esther Harding, The I and the Not-I
Is a book that explores how easily the first lessons get lost and has to be relearned. She was the first significant Jungian psychoanalyst in the United States and wrote extensively about the mystery of women.